1965 WAR- The Inside Story by R.D. Pradhan

[Kompromat]

@SarthakGanguly

* National Holiday
* Fly pasts in Sargodha-Sialkot-Lahore on different air bases.

 

[Panther 57]

Mate, isnt it mandatory to soldiers not to even salute at superiors in the battlefront? Correct me if I am wrong. I mean there was an argument back in this forum about how Pakistani officer looks like an ordinary soldier during a flag meeting.. It was said that officers usually wear dress like that in border areas..

Flag meetings are different then actual war.

 

[Iggy]

Flag meetings are different then actual war.

Let me get this straight... In war you have to wear badges and in flag meeting you dont have to.. Yupz make sense

 

[Panther 57]

Let me get this straight... In war you have to wear badges and in flag meeting you dont have to.. Yupz make sense

My dear it is much more complicated then it is said. Who says badges are not worn in flag meetings, if the participating team is supposed to be in uniform. Let military secrets of both the sides remain with them, rather them put them under uncalled for discussion on open forumns.

 

[Spring Onion]

Just a doubt, how the author think the soldiers will wear badges to show his rank in the battlefront? Isnt it make easier for a sniper to select the correct target?

not the author but Lt. Gen. Harbakash Singh of Indian army was expecting Maj Gen Prasad to wear those

 

[dray]

@SarthakGanguly

* National Holiday
* Fly pasts in Sargodha-Sialkot-Lahore on different air bases.

Congrats on your defense day! I just wish there is peace between us and someday this defense day becomes a friendship day between us.

 

[notsuperstitious]

It is Territory that was returned after Tashkent. It means Territory held.

Let me quote references about the end result.

1. "The Indian army suffered 3,000 battlefield deaths, while Pakistan suffered 3,800. The Indian army was in possession of 710 miles² (1,800 km²) of Pakistani territory and the Pakistan army held 210 mile² (550 km²) of Indian territory. The territory occupied by India was mainly in the fertile Sialkot, Lahore and Kashmir sectors" - The Story of My Struggle By Tajammal Hussain Malik 1991, Jang Publishers, p. 78

2. "while Pakistani land gains were primarily south in deserts opposite to Sindh and in Chumb sector near Kashmir in north." - Khaki Shadows by General K.M. Arif, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-579396-X, 2001

3. "The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government." - "Pakistan :: The Indo-Pakistani War of 1965". Library of Congress Country Studies, United States of America. April 1994. Retrieved 2 October 2010.

4. TIME magazine reported that India held 690 mi2 of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 mi2 of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan. Additionally, Pakistan had lost almost half its armour temporarily. "Severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N." - Silent Guns, Wary Combatants, October 1, 1965, TIME Magazine

5. "The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat." - Hagerty, Devin. South Asia in world politics. Rowman & Littlefield, 2005. ISBN 0-7425-2587-2.

6. "The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts." - Dijkink, Gertjan. National identity and geopolitical visions: maps of pride and pain. Routledge, 1996. ISBN 0-415-13934-1.

7. "In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin." - India by Stanley Wolpert. Published: University of California Press, 1990

8. "India won the war. It gained 1,840 km2 (710 sq mi) of Pakistani territory: 640 km2 (250 sq mi) in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 km2 (180 sq mi) of the Sailkot sector; 380 km2 (150 sq mi) far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 km2 (140 sq mi) on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 km2 (210 sq mi) of Indian territory: 490 km2 (190 sq mi) in the Chhamb sector and 50 km2 (19 sq mi) around Khem Karan." - Praagh, David. The greater game: India's race with destiny and China. McGill-Queen's Press – MQUP, 2003. ISBN 0-7735-2639-0.

9. "Although both sides lost heavily in men and material, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan's attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated." - "India and the United States estranged democracies", 1941–1991, ISBN 1-4289-8189-6, DIANE Publishing, Pg 238

10. "The defeat in the 1965 war led to the army's invincibility being challenged by an increasingly vocal opposition. This became a surge after his protege, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, deserted him and established the Pakistan People's Party." - Ali, Mahmud. (2003-12-24) South Asia | The rise of Pakistan's army. BBC News. Retrieved on 2011-04-14.

11. "India's strategic aims were modest – it aimed to deny Pakistani Army victory, although it ended up in possession of 720 square miles (1,900 km2) of Pakistani territory for the loss of just 220 square miles (570 km2) of its own." - Johnson, Robert. A region in turmoil: South Asian conflicts since 1947. Reaktion Books, 2005. ISBN 1-86189-257-8.

12. "A brief but furious 1965 war with India began with a covert Pakistani thrust across the Kashmiri cease-fire line and ended up with the city of Lahore threatened with encirclement by Indian Army. Another UN-sponsored cease-fire left borders unchanged, but Pakistan's vulnerability had again been exposed." - William M. Carpenter, David G. Wiencek. Asian security handbook: terrorism and the new security environment. M.E. Sharpe, 2005. ISBN 0-7656-1553-3.

13. "The 1965 Indo-Pak war lasted barely a month. Pakistan made gains in the Rajasthan desert but its main push against India's Jammu-Srinagar road link was repulsed and Indian tanks advanced to within a sight of Lahore. Both sides claimed victory but India had most to celebrate." - John Keay. India: A History. Grove Press, 2001. ISBN 0-275-97779-X.

14. "Again India appeared, logistically at least, to be in a superior position but neither side was able to mobilize enough strength to gain a decisive victory." - Uk Heo, Shale Asher Horowitz. Conflict in Asia: Korea, China-Taiwan, and India-Pakistan. Greenwood Publishing Group, 2003. ISBN 0-8021-3797-0.

Also of note are these -
1. Musharraf buys all copies of sensitive '65 war book - World - DNA
2. The Myth of 1965 Victory by Lieutenant General Mahmood Ahmed

Good post. End results and objectives are important in wars. Cherry picking a para here, a para there, a battle here, a skirmish there and then at the end conjuring up a claim of victory should be left to people who need to massage their martial egos.

Pakistan started the war to win Kashmir, Happy Defense of Pakistan day guys!!!

 

[Kompromat]

Congrats on your defense day! I just wish there is peace between us and someday this defense day becomes a friendship day between us.

I don't wish for superficial peace - i wish for 'real peace'. We do want to go and see India for ourselves but it doesn't seem possible even though we have a 2000km+ border.

 

[Kompromat]

@DRAY

I don't have heritage on the Indian side of the border. My clan has lived here in the Jehlum/Chenab river delta region for over a millennium. However, its been always my great wish to be able to freely travel to India and see the nation for myself. I have an Indian to beat up in S.India - only if i could go there.

@seiko

 

[Iggy]

My dear it is much more complicated then it is said. Who says badges are not worn in flag meetings, if the participating team is supposed to be in uniform. Let military secrets of both the sides remain with them, rather them put them under uncalled for discussion on open forumns.

Mate, as I said it was discussion happened here in PDF over a picture of flag meeting.. Some Indian member mocked that while Indian officer is in full uniform, his counter part is wearing an ordinary soldier dress.. Some of the military experts countered it these kind of arguments.. Anyway leave it.. I was clearing some doubts.. Anyway there is a scene in Saving Private Ryan where Vin Diesel asked another guy not to salute the superior officer (Tom Hanks) when he is near Tom Hanks, because he do not want to be traget of snipers

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Regardless how how much the Indians hate this fact. PAF had attained full air dominance over the battlefield [Pakistani airspace] within first 100 hours of the war.

What is the definition of air dominance according to you?
@Argus Panoptes Do you have any comments?

 

[Patriots]

 

[Iggy]

@DRAY

I don't have heritage on the Indian side of the border. My clan has lived here in the Jehlum/Chenab river delta region for over a millennium. However, its been always my great wish to be able to freely travel to India and see the nation for myself. I have an Indian to beat up in S.India - only if i could go there.

@seiko

You come here.. I will pluck your man boobs out of you!!

 

[Patriots]

Indian captive 'Jawans' during September war

Indian war equipage captured by Pakistan forces

 

[Patriots]

Indian weapons which were occupied in Fazilka sector