1965 War Documentary Fath-e-Mobin

[Sneaker]

PAF Badaber is the only installation where USAF/CIA operations were based. The ONLY liaison they have at PAF Peshawar airbase with the Runway is a single officer which would be supplemented by personnel only at time of U-2 operations(there were no U-2 operations during the 65 war, and Pee-WEE 2 was part of 2 USAF B-57's operated by RAF pilots).

I made 2 claims 1. PAF Airbase was attacked. 2. most PAF retreated to AFB Peshawar during night (Not like Entire PAF)
Source 1. (PAF base Peshawar being attacked): Airborne to Chairborne: Memoirs of a War Veteran Aviator-Lawyer of the Indian Air Force by A.S Ahluwalia, Page 213)

Source 2. (PAF base Peshawar conentration): Airborne to Chairborne: Memoirs of a War Veteran Aviator-Lawyer of the Indian Air Force by A.S Ahluwalia, Page 213)

Author was the navigator in 2 raids on PAF base Peshawar.

Some of your claims that is not sourced:
1. U2 and RB-57s flew out of Badaber and not PAF AFB Peshawar
2. All of the USAF personnel were in Badaber except 1 officer
3. No damage in Peshawar AFB
4. Badaber was attacked

I can list many more. But I do not want to continue. By this discussion, any non-partial person can understand what is going on :me tactically retreating:

 

[Hellfire]

So, sir....It was India who initiated war with China and was lost?

Yes. That is a fact. We crossed the McMahon line in the then NEFA (present day Arunachal Pradesh) and occupied a feature with approximately a platoon strength. The Chinese built up and hit only that feature and nowhere else initially, inspite of other troops being in proximity.

You may like to see the scirmishes at Longju and Kongka between Indian Assam Rifles troops and PLA Border Guards at the time and the subsequent order to Indian 7th Brigade to cross McMahon Line on 09 September 1962 to occupy Kejielang (Khinzemane as per India) which was clearly north of McMahon line even on Indian Army maps and occupy ''Dhola" in I think about a platoon strength, the feature exclusively surrounded by Chinese in first phase (and cleared as first phase as mentioned earlier).

This surrounding of Indian platoon sized force and incorrect assessment of Chinese forces being a unit strength whereas it was a fraction of it, resulted in the whole brigade being ordered to occupy Thag La Ridge and undertake offensive operations to clear the Chinese there. The Indians attacked and Chinese suffered casualties there.

This, coupled to non favorable response to Chinese diplomatic overtures on September 16 based on the initial success from 7th Brigade assault, led to further deterioration and miscalculations.

Ex post-facto the Chinese may claim otherwise, but at the time, China was not keen on engaging in a war with India on both political and military reasons and was more than keen in recognizing the borders at the time with quid pro quo - that India recognizes Aksai Chin as part of China, in return China recognizes NEFA as part of India, that is both nations give up respective claims.

Had Nehru not been euphoric over the successful operations in Goa against Portuguese, things may today have been much different indeed.

So yes, India initiated the war, without expecting the Chinese to react. Something, Pakistani leadership did with respect to India in 1965. (South Asian stupidities I guess)

You might want to read up in case you are interested in India's China War by Neville Maxwell.

Alternatively you can read on Himalayan Blunder by Brig John Dalvi who was the Commander of 7 Brigade or War in High Himalayas:The Indian Army in Crisis by DK Palit who was in Military Operations at the time to get a pretty accurate and unbiased opinion.

However, for quick reference
http://web.stanford.edu/group/tomzgroup/pmwiki/uploads/0199-2003-Burkitt-a-IEM.pdf

@Oscar part 2? We are waiting for you to bring that excellent piece to a conclusion and as @Joe Shearer has said you can't set us up and walk away!!!!

That's unfair!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes. That is a fact. We crossed the McMahon line in the then NEFA (present day Arunachal Pradesh) and occupied a feature with approximately a platoon strength. The Chinese built up and hit only that feature and nowhere else initially, inspite of other troops being in proximity.

You may like to see the scirmishes at Longju and Kongka between Indian Assam Rifles troops and PLA Border Guards at the time and the subsequent order to Indian 7th Brigade to cross McMahon Line on 09 September 1962 to occupy Kejielang (Khinzemane as per India) which was clearly north of McMahon line even on Indian Army maps and occupy ''Dhola" in I think about a platoon strength, the feature exclusively surrounded by Chinese in first phase (and cleared as first phase as mentioned earlier).

This surrounding of Indian platoon sized force and incorrect assessment of Chinese forces being a unit strength whereas it was a fraction of it, resulted in the whole brigade being ordered to occupy Thag La Ridge and undertake offensive operations to clear the Chinese there. The Indians attacked and Chinese suffered casualties there.

This, coupled to non favorable response to Chinese diplomatic overtures on September 16 based on the initial success from 7th Brigade assault, led to further deterioration and miscalculations.

Ex post-facto the Chinese may claim otherwise, but at the time, China was not keen on engaging in a war with India on both political and military reasons and was more than keen in recognizing the borders at the time with quid pro quo - that India recognizes Aksai Chin as part of China, in return China recognizes NEFA as part of India, that is both nations give up respective claims.

Had Nehru not been euphoric over the successful operations in Goa against Portuguese, things may today have been much different indeed.

So yes, India initiated the war, without expecting the Chinese to react. Something, Pakistani leadership did with respect to India in 1965. (South Asian stupidities I guess)

You might want to read up in case you are interested in India's China War by Neville Maxwell.

Alternatively you can read on Himalayan Blunder by Brig John Dalvi who was the Commander of 7 Brigade or War in High Himalayas:The Indian Army in Crisis by DK Palit who was in Military Operations at the time to get a pretty accurate and unbiased opinion.

However, for quick reference
http://web.stanford.edu/group/tomzgroup/pmwiki/uploads/0199-2003-Burkitt-a-IEM.pdf

@Oscar part 2? We are waiting for you to bring that excellent piece to a conclusion and as @Joe Shearer has said you can't set us up and walk away!!!!

That's unfair!!!

@hellfire

Excellent post. I've had a very bad time in the past walking people through these details. BTW, have you come across the Chinese use of the Bailley Trail? Thorat (I think; one of the Corps Commanders, not in NEFA) and Kumaramangalam war-gamed NEFA under attack by the Chinese, K taking the Chinese side, and won three times out of three. On one of those, I was told he had actually used the Bailley Trail. Spooky, isn't it?

@Oscar

Don't kill me for this, but I got a lot out of that 'discussion' that you had with @Sneaker . Waiting for the next bits, but please take your time; don't want to hustle you into a forced lesser-quality narrative.

 

[Hellfire]

@Joe Shearer Sir it is unfortunate that we refuse to correct our past mistakes yet. Similar was the case seen in late 1990s when despite inputs by Commanding Officer of the local Infantry Unit who was member of the 1st Sino-Indian JWG, we vacated Jelep La pass, which at the time was completely held by the unit. Today, the Chinese hold the Eastern Shoulder of the same as they follow the same principles of India's 'Forward Policy' of the 50s

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Yes. That is a fact. We crossed the McMahon line in the then NEFA (present day Arunachal Pradesh) and occupied a feature with approximately a platoon strength. The Chinese built up and hit only that feature and nowhere else initially, inspite of other troops being in proximity.

You may like to see the scirmishes at Longju and Kongka between Indian Assam Rifles troops and PLA Border Guards at the time and the subsequent order to Indian 7th Brigade to cross McMahon Line on 09 September 1962 to occupy Kejielang (Khinzemane as per India) which was clearly north of McMahon line even on Indian Army maps and occupy ''Dhola" in I think about a platoon strength, the feature exclusively surrounded by Chinese in first phase (and cleared as first phase as mentioned earlier).

This surrounding of Indian platoon sized force and incorrect assessment of Chinese forces being a unit strength whereas it was a fraction of it, resulted in the whole brigade being ordered to occupy Thag La Ridge and undertake offensive operations to clear the Chinese there. The Indians attacked and Chinese suffered casualties there.

This, coupled to non favorable response to Chinese diplomatic overtures on September 16 based on the initial success from 7th Brigade assault, led to further deterioration and miscalculations.

Ex post-facto the Chinese may claim otherwise, but at the time, China was not keen on engaging in a war with India on both political and military reasons and was more than keen in recognizing the borders at the time with quid pro quo - that India recognizes Aksai Chin as part of China, in return China recognizes NEFA as part of India, that is both nations give up respective claims.

Had Nehru not been euphoric over the successful operations in Goa against Portuguese, things may today have been much different indeed.

So yes, India initiated the war, without expecting the Chinese to react. Something, Pakistani leadership did with respect to India in 1965. (South Asian stupidities I guess)

You might want to read up in case you are interested in India's China War by Neville Maxwell.

Alternatively you can read on Himalayan Blunder by Brig John Dalvi who was the Commander of 7 Brigade or War in High Himalayas:The Indian Army in Crisis by DK Palit who was in Military Operations at the time to get a pretty accurate and unbiased opinion.

However, for quick reference
http://web.stanford.edu/group/tomzgroup/pmwiki/uploads/0199-2003-Burkitt-a-IEM.pdf

@Oscar part 2? We are waiting for you to bring that excellent piece to a conclusion and as @Joe Shearer has said you can't set us up and walk away!!!!

That's unfair!!!

I can only thank you in a way that i request you to not leave this forum anytime soon....I feel privileged after reading your this very post........Many Thanks....

 

[Hamza913]

nah, but whatever suits your boat. I am just thrilled to find out some facts that I didn't know. For example, did you USAF 6937th Group evacuated to turky after IAF bombed their base in pehawar PAF HQ? or that USAF personnell were involved in Rann of Kutch skirmish and wounded?

Actually I didn't, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Hellfire]

I can only thank you in a way that i request you to not leave this forum anytime soon

I have been around here quite sometime and I shall agree with you when I say that it is indeed a privilege to learn from such experienced and learned people who are members of this very forum cutting across nationalities. It is an excellent platform to learn, share and discuss about ideas dispassionatlely.

If you go through our preceding posts, you shall find that we were trying to convince a fellow member why 65 could be considered a war where Pakistan lost. (The Pakistanis lost here, Idia did not win it; we call it a relative Indian victory) If you consider the campaign on its merits and the stated political objectives, you shall find it to be the case too.

Thanks

 

[Joe Shearer]

I can only thank you in a way that i request you to not leave this forum anytime soon....I feel privileged after reading your this very post........Many Thanks....

He IS rather good, isn't he? What I like is that he is brutally honest, a trait that I know from personal experience has to be cultivated, and transparent. Whenever he writes on something, it's usually copybook perfect. My friend @chauism , for instance, would have loved this post; I am very unhappy that Fauji Historian, @AUSTERLITZ and @Capt.Popeye are not reading his posts.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

He IS rather good, isn't he? What I like is that he is brutally honest, a trait that I know from personal experience has to be cultivated, and transparent. Whenever he writes on something, it's usually copybook perfect. My friend @chauism , for instance, would have loved this post; I am very unhappy that Fauji Historian, @AUSTERLITZ and @Capt.Popeye are not reading his posts.

He and You are the most admired guys in PDF from across the border....It is always nice to read your lengthy and detailed posts....

 

[Joe Shearer]

He and You are the most admired guys in PDF from across the border....It is always nice to read your lengthy and detailed posts....

Well, we all have a sell-by date, and after the insult I got, it's clear my date has passed. But thank you for your very nice remarks.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Well, we all have a sell-by date, and after the insult I got, it's clear my date has passed. But thank you for your very nice remarks.

Sir i would disagree with that

You're by far the most admired and cherished member on PDF, at-least among the TT, Researchers and Professional Community. Unfortunately, PDF has been a magnet for trolls and fanboys lately, thus i understand your frustration.

 

[Sneaker]

@American Eagle - are you Rtd Col George L. Singleton that was wounded in Rann of Kutch?

 

[Hellfire]

@Areesh You can discuss 1965 here.

Suggest read all the posts so far and especially @Oscar who has put a great post.

 

[deckingraj]

China? Maybe. Russia? No. Iran? Yes. Like I said, most countries, not all.

Actually you are wrong here...why?? because war may sound like a joke here however that is serious business. US is not ruled by some lunatics that they will risk wars with every second nation out there...As said in the last comments...if you don't have an independent foreign policy then be prepared to be humbled by the saviour time and again...There are lot of nations who have independent foreign policy and thus will not tolerate any threats to sovereignty...You said "May Be" for China without even thinking that they directly opposed US in Korean war whom unlike uncle sam were not even a nuclear power then!!....Iran under severe sanctions and on the verge of getting out of that situation did not compromise on sovereignty and did this...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/10-u-s-sailors-in-iranian-custody/

Anyhow the key here is Independent Foreign Policy...For example check out how France conducts its business.

And we can take care of ourselves fine, I would like to see India do better in the situation you think we are in.

Though history has shown us that Pakistan is always looking out for a big brother...yet whom am I to say you can't take care of yourselves...Every nation has that potential and Pakistan is no different...Like China, Iran you are talking about India here as well..Let me tell you few things...When almost entire world was either siding with US or USSR we chose to follow non alignment(right or wrong debatable but we shed the notion of someone's backyard right from the onset)...Even after 62 debacle we didn't lookout for a big brother...Only in 71 we went ahead with peace treaty with USSR(because of obvious reasons) and then went ahead with our plans of breaking Pakistan much to the dislike of both China and USA. Does it sound like standing up?? This is a minor incident however still worth mentioning..
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/second-airspace-violation-by-us-indian-authorities-worried-403344
http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/repo...nd-in-mumbai-gets-iaf-clearance-later-1300264

The fact is, the US does things with our permission, people just as Edward Snowden and Seymour Hersh have admitted so, and they have more authority on the matter than you do with your warped view..

Long story short it is a big slap on sovereign nations when someone can come in and get out and you can't do jack about it...these tacit understandings are obviously the diplomatic maneouvers and niceties...the question is not that you have given permissions...the questions is do you have a choice?? Like pointed out in some previous message...when a simple call from Bush made you do a U-turn on AF policy may you please enlighten me how on this earth will you stand up to the Americans and tell them we are not your freaking base!!

Anyways now i have started repeating my thoughts and once that starts it is a clear indication that there is nothing more that one can contribute on the said topic...so feel free to reply but consider this as my last reply on this topic..

Regards....

 

[Hamza913]

Actually you are wrong here...why?? because war may sound like a joke here however that is serious business. US is not ruled by some lunatics that they will risk wars with every second nation out there...As said in the last comments...if you don't have an independent foreign policy then be prepared to be humbled by the saviour time and again...There are lot of nations who have independent foreign policy and thus will not tolerate any threats to sovereignty...You said "May Be" for China without even thinking that they directly opposed US in Korean war whom unlike uncle sam were not even a nuclear power then!!....Iran under severe sanctions and on the verge of getting out of that situation did not compromise on sovereignty and did this...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/10-u-s-sailors-in-iranian-custody/

Anyhow the key here is Independent Foreign Policy...For example check out how France conducts its business.


Though history has shown us that Pakistan is always looking out for a big brother...yet whom am I to say you can't take care of yourselves...Every nation has that potential and Pakistan is no different...Like China, Iran you are talking about India here as well..Let me tell you few things...When almost entire world was either siding with US or USSR we chose to follow non alignment(right or wrong debatable but we shed the notion of someone's backyard right from the onset)...Even after 62 debacle we didn't lookout for a big brother...Only in 71 we went ahead with peace treaty with USSR(because of obvious reasons) and then went ahead with our plans of breaking Pakistan much to the dislike of both China and USA. Does it sound like standing up?? This is a minor incident however still worth mentioning..
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/second-airspace-violation-by-us-indian-authorities-worried-403344
http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/repo...nd-in-mumbai-gets-iaf-clearance-later-1300264


Long story short it is a big slap on sovereign nations when someone can come in and get out and you can't do jack about it...these tacit understandings are obviously the diplomatic maneouvers and niceties...the question is not that you have given permissions...the questions is do you have a choice?? Like pointed out in some previous message...when a simple call from Bush made you do a U-turn on AF policy may you please enlighten me how on this earth will you stand up to the Americans and tell them we are not your freaking base!!

Anyways now i have started repeating my thoughts and once that starts it is a clear indication that there is nothing more that one can contribute on the said topic...so feel free to reply but consider this as my last reply on this topic..

Regards....

Your just rephrasing what you said before.