1965 War Documentary Fath-e-Mobin

[Hamza913]

Incorrect? About my age? Is there no limit to your insolence?

1. There is nothing to prove or disprove. Nothing happened. Ask anyone who served in your own Army. He will laugh at you and your idle speculation.
2. Only Kashmiris are Kashmiri. Only Kashur-speakers are Kashmiri. Some random Uzbek or Tajik can't drop in for tea and claim that he is Kashmiri. Gilgiti, yes, Balti, yes, Ladakhi, yes, Mirpuri, yes, but not Kashmiri. Jammu and Kashmir was the name given to the realm ruled by the Maharaja of Kashmir, whose ancestors put together the state piece by piece. Before them, under the Sikhs, the Afghans or the Mughals, there was never any question of the areas ruled by the Dogras being Kashmir.
3. Nobody helped the locals. That is a blatant falsehood. So there is no question of immorality. The immorality is in your manufacturing a situation that never existed.

As for not replying, when you mis-state facts, why should you not be pulled up for it? Do you expect to make any and every kind of wild claim and have everyone remain quiet about it?

I am still not as insolent as you.

1. Let's agree to disagree, as none of us will be able to prove our point.
2. I am Kashmiri, I come from Kashmir, what does that make me? You guessed it, Kashmiri. So put a sock in it, people like you are mindbogglingly rude.
3. You can continue to believe that, but the fact is the majority of Kashmir always has and always will hate India.

As for your last point, I could say the same.

 

[MilSpec]

I request the @WebMaster to close this thread and prevent Indian propaganda like they always do.
The reason to do so.
The purpose of the thread was to share the documentary

A mis-informed one though ...
but since it seems that you have started believing your own lies on the 65 war so I will cross post a few lines.

So Lets hear from few Pakistani Gentlemen, I think their narrative of the war differs from you to, but do contemplate very carefully before you start questioning their credentials.


Air Chief Marshal: Asghar Khan
Air Chief Marshal: Nur Khan
Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin
Col. S.G Mehd (SSG Commander)



What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!


Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities




this is your Air Chief Marshal Asghar Khan.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui


Hope that helps

 

[Hamza913]

A mis-informed one though ...
but since it seems that you have started believing your own lies on the 65 war so I will cross post a few lines.

So Lets hear from few Pakistani Gentlemen, I think their narrative of the war differs from you to, but do contemplate very carefully before you start questioning their credentials.


Air Chief Marshal: Asghar Khan
Air Chief Marshal: Nur Khan
Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin
Col. S.G Mehd (SSG Commander)



What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!


Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities




this is your Air Chief Marshal Asghar Khan.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui


Hope that helps

All they have said is that the top generals made stupid decisions, as did Indian generals.

I will agree that in Pakistan the military exaggerates what happened in 65, but I will not agree that we started all wars with India.

 

[MilSpec]

All they have said is that the top generals made stupid decisions, as did Indian generals.

I will agree that in Pakistan the military exaggerates what happened in 65, but I will not agree that we started all wars with India.

are you sure? here highlighted for reading pleasure.


We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/1965-war-documentary-fath-e-mobin.438854/page-17#ixzz4EIVQD2hb

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/1965-war-documentary-fath-e-mobin.438854/page-17#ixzz4EIVhpdGe

 

[.]

A mis-informed one though ...
but since it seems that you have started believing your own lies on the 65 war so I will cross post a few lines.

So Lets hear from few Pakistani Gentlemen, I think their narrative of the war differs from you to, but do contemplate very carefully before you start questioning their credentials.


Air Chief Marshal: Asghar Khan
Air Chief Marshal: Nur Khan
Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin
Col. S.G Mehd (SSG Commander)



What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!


Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities




this is your Air Chief Marshal Asghar Khan.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui


Hope that helps

Read that before thank you very much,and also I suggest you read the thread and other links Provided by people from the Indian side.
The Generals are contradicting reality itself and also their own-selves We won a lot of battles but lost the war .How is a war lost when you win the battles?.Indian army wanted to acquire Lahore and Sialkot ,Did they? They wanted to do alot of things did they? .
The Generals are entitled to their own opinions.

 

[Hamza913]

are you sure? here highlighted for reading pleasure.


We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/1965-war-documentary-fath-e-mobin.438854/page-17#ixzz4EIVQD2hb

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/1965-war-documentary-fath-e-mobin.438854/page-17#ixzz4EIVhpdGe

To say we lost the war is silly, India didn't accomplish it's objectives either of taking Lahore or Sialkot.

 

[John Reese]

o say we lost the war is silly, India didn't accomplish it's objectives either of taking Lahore or Sialkot.

That's Was Never the Aim of India But We Launched 2nd front So that Pakistan Loose Grip on Kashmir

 

[Hamza913]

That's Was Never the Aim of India But We Launched 2nd front So that Pakistan Loose Grip on Kashmir

Yes it was, India wanted to take Lahore and Sialkot, but failed miserably.

 

[Sneaker]

Op Gibraltar was in April?



As for pleading, please give me proof we did so, oh wait you don't have any.

Runn of Kucch.. you were the aggressor there too..

 

[Hamza913]

Runn of Kucch.. you were the aggressor there too..

Evidence?

 

[Sneaker]

Sorry, @Sneaker , that is the wrong answer and the wrong information.

We were attacked by Pakistan on the 1st of September, and we reacted only four days later. There is no 2 weeks gap except in the imagination of the person you are answering, who has become known for having no concrete knowledge of facts relating to military history whatsoever, but depends on Wikipedia and YouTube.

He probably does not even know that there was an attack, codenamed Operation Grand Slam, prepared and planned by Lt. General Akhtar Hussain Malik, GOC, XII Corps, which was launched against India on the 1st of September, after it became clear that Gibraltar was a failure. He had, in fact, been allowed by Musa Khan to go ahead with his planning, although in the minds of Musa Khan and Ayub Khan, the Kashmiris were ripe for revolt, and would join the SSG troops who were sent in as Operation Gibraltar's planning demanded.

There were four days needed to react. There was no Pakistani breakthrough in Kashmir as a result of Operation Gibraltar; there was a serious situation, salvaged by rushing troops in by Harbaksh Singh, and there was a new front opened, as I mentioned, four days later.

You were right about April. It was Brigadier Iftekhar who led armoured troops against lightly armed border guards and brushed them aside in the Rann of Kutch, and which led to Pakistani over-confidence about their prospects with Gibraltar. Brigadier Iftekhar, as Lt. Gen. Iftekhar, exactly repeated General Malik's plan of 65 in 1971, but with brilliant success. He was one of the better generals that Pakistan had, and we were fortunate that he died in battle.

Thanks for putting the record straight.

Get a life kid, go first learn who pleaded for ceasefire, , after the devastation of Pathankot, with MiGs getting destroyed, the Russians were calling you as ''Cows sitting in the Cockpits''.....seems the mindset hasn't improved much either.

there were 1/2 migs destroyed on ground, you lost half of lahore. Funny you think India pleaded for ceasefire for just losing 2 migs but pak was alright even though it lost half of lahore with Indian arty bringing lahore intl airport under its range...

 

[John Reese]

Yes it was, India wanted to take Lahore and Sialkot, but failed miserably.

But Loss of Over 1,840 km2 (710 sq mi) of Pakistani territory: 640 km2 (250 sq mi) in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 km2(180 sq mi) of the Sailkot sector; 380 km2 (150 sq mi) far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 km2 (140 sq mi) on the Lahore front.

India used less than 15% of its ammunition compared to Pakistan, which had consumed closer to 80 percent

Despite the declaration of a ceasefire, India was perceived as the victor due to its success in halting the Pakistan-backed insurgency in Kashmir. In its October 1965 issue, the TIME magazine quoted a Western official assessing the consequences of the war

Now it's apparent to everybody that India is going to emerge as an Asian power in its own right."

 

[Hamza913]

But Loss of Over 1,840 km2 (710 sq mi) of Pakistani territory: 640 km2 (250 sq mi) in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 km2(180 sq mi) of the Sailkot sector; 380 km2 (150 sq mi) far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 km2 (140 sq mi) on the Lahore front.

India used less than 15% of its ammunition compared to Pakistan, which had consumed closer to 80 percent

Despite the declaration of a ceasefire, India was perceived as the victor due to its success in halting the Pakistan-backed insurgency in Kashmir. In its October 1965 issue, the TIME magazine quoted a Western official assessing the consequences of the war

Now it's apparent to everybody that India is going to emerge as an Asian power in its own right."

Pakistan lost more territory because it was on the defensive, that always happens to the defender. We still managed to defend the main areas themselves, that's what counts.

We successfully halted the Indian invasion, whether or not we chewed through ammunition is irrelevant.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui

Good to know even a Pakistani had this thought.

Pakistani leadership in euphoria of falsely celebrating 1965 as a grand victory made no efforts to increase troop numbers or modernize the navy.

In 1965, Pakistan had standing army of 250,000 troops compared to India's 800,000

By 1971, India procured latest modern naval cruise missiles and also increased its troops to 1.1 million while Pakistan merely added 30,000 troops increasing the numbers to 280,000.

Months prior 1971 war, a desperate attempt was made by Pakistan to raise the required numbers in the East, this last minute desperation resulted in a humiliating defeat.

 

[deckingraj]

Pakistan lost more territory because it was on the defensive, that always happens to the defender. We still managed to defend the main areas themselves, that's what counts.

We successfully halted the Indian invasion, whether or not we chewed through ammunition is irrelevant.

Can you please throw more light on what you mean by bold part here??

Also here is a short tour about the whole episode...Lal Bahadur Shastri had clearly said that any mischief in kashmir will be taken as war on India...Obviously Pakistan treated it as empty warning...Pakistan offensive in kashmir was threatening and India opened a new front on international border....The move made leaders in Pakistan panick and the resources had to be moved to save Lahore... rest we all know..

Please tell me which part do you not agree here? Also do you agree that weakest link in Pakistan side at that point was East Pakistan....so can u please suggest why that theater didn't see much of an action?