15 Jordanian F-16 for sale

[araz]

The three armed services are as corrupt as the society they hail from. Army has the largest share of defence budget, hence most corruption in defence procurement occurs in GHQ. HOWEVER, PAF has its fiascos, starting from the SAGEM deal, to as recent as SPADA. I have taken names in the past, but then people scream murder. People who are directly involved were rewarded, promoted and serving, on highly coveted posts of DCAS Projects.

However, on the matter of corruption, the question only is that are commissions being given/taken, or are bad decisions being taken?

Mansoor was a great Admiral. He first sold off PNSC ships for scrap, and then paid Zardari for it, who intern made him CNS out of turn. Mansoor then took commissions on the MCMV deal, but he paid heavily for it. As an officer, he has had no second in his decision making power. So is common for other great leaders with corruption "allegations."

BR

Thank you for your post. I wont dwell onto army corruption but my question pertains to older C and D models of 16s. A.Why has PAF persisted in going for bl. 15s knowing fully well that the life on those airframes will be less as they have been around for longer and therefore likely to have been used more.?
B. Secondly other than engine will the commonality of parts not allow fleet management of bl. 32/42s which can subsequently be MLUed with our current infrastructure or will we have to set up a different infrastructure for maintenance?
C. Are such opportunities available and will PAF go down this route for fleet replenishment and replacement? Thanks in advance.
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Thank you for your post. I wont dwell onto army corruption but my question pertains to older C and D models of 16s. A.Why has PAF persisted in going for bl. 15s knowing fully well that the life on those airframes will be less as they have been around for longer and therefore likely to have been used more.?
B. Secondly other than engine will the commonality of parts not allow fleet management of bl. 32/42s which can subsequently be MLUed with our current infrastructure or will we have to set up a different infrastructure for maintenance?
C. Are such opportunities available and will PAF go down this route for fleet replenishment and replacement? Thanks in advance.
A

Pakistan Air Force had one of the largest fleets of Block 15/20 aircraft in the world. By upgrading the whole fleet, PAF has, by default, one of the largest asset and spare inventory for the Block 15/20 aircraft, and the Intermediate and Depot level facilities to support their equipment. This makes PAF in unique position to be able to procure Block 15 aircraft and support it. PAF can procure an additional of 40 Block 15/20 aircraft from various countries and support it for another 15 years.

What good is this Block 15 aircraft you may reckon? The answer is pilot training. PAF keeps up her tradition of high pilot availability and ratio, and it is due to this smart decision, legacy aircraft keep up the training program, while the new assets are preserved and used wisely so they have maximum availability in case of conflict.

BR

 

[Blue Marlin]

I almost bought it. So right now my good old 2012 model is still slugging it out. Which is ok since it still has a somewhat ok 2G card and a retrofitted i7.. still, the game lags when I put too many players into a fight.

i dont run games om my craptop i have and acer aspire 5733 which ios for holidays as its not worth much 750hdd, 6gb ddr3, 2.2ghz dual core i3. i got that as a present i have a fujitsu god knows what,
thats very good, 1tb hdd, 2.3ghz dual core,12gb ddr3. got an extra 8gb kingston hyper-x black for half price on boxing day.
got 4 full rack of servers which i use to host sites which there hosting 11 right now and databases for my apps. nobody wants to mess with them.

oh and my 2012 imac 21.5" 2.6ghz which is going by the end of the summer.

 

[Tipu7]

The three armed services are as corrupt as the society they hail from. Army has the largest share of defence budget, hence most corruption in defence procurement occurs in GHQ. HOWEVER, PAF has its fiascos, starting from the SAGEM deal, to as recent as SPADA. I have taken names in the past, but then people scream murder. People who are directly involved were rewarded, promoted and serving, on highly coveted posts of DCAS Projects.

However, on the matter of corruption, the question only is that are commissions being given/taken, or are bad decisions being taken?

Mansoor was a great Admiral. He first sold off PNSC ships for scrap, and then paid Zardari for it, who intern made him CNS out of turn. Mansoor then took commissions on the MCMV deal, but he paid heavily for it. As an officer, he has had no second in his decision making power. So is common for other great leaders with corruption "allegations."

BR

Sir,
Can you mention few of more such events of corruption in separate thread? To an extent that it will not being any backlash or Risk to you?

i dont run games om my craptop i have and acer aspire 5733 which ios for holidays as its not worth much 750hdd, 6gb ddr3, 2.2ghz dual core i3. i got that as a present i have a fujitsu god knows what,
thats very good, 1tb hdd, 2.3ghz dual core,12gb ddr3. got an extra 8gb kingston hyper-x black for half price on boxing day.
got 4 full rack of servers which i use to host sites which there hosting 11 right now and databases for my apps. nobody wants to mess with them.

oh and my 2012 imac 21.5" 2.6ghz which is going by the end of the summer.

Which game you are talking about?

There are two basic reasons for that low ratio what i learn from this forum;

1. There is a Tarnish image of a fighter pilot mostly due to Mig-21 (flying coffins) in ordinary Indian public.
2. A Fighter Pilot get very less paid compares to a commercial pilot.

Most of fleet of their modern aircrafts are twin pilot aircrafts. Hence demanding more pilots per squadron compared to PAF.

To an extent, but if the IAF comes in full force(provided they can sort their lack of pilots out) there is no optimistic scenario for the PAF.

Shouldn't we "shift" our air fields locations? Most of PAF bases are close to Indian Border, and prone to stand off weaponry....

That could take an entire thread. So far I am trying to simulate such an actual scenario on the sim I have and building up the situation. But I have to be meticulous and also have to ensure that my poor PC can take it.
We can tell then.

Can you extend it a bit.
Like PAF vs IAF to PN vs IN and PA vs IA in varying conditions. (Cold start, Kashmir, Full fledged war)

 

[AsifIjaz]

F 16 has the potential for 12000 hours somebody posted a link in this thread about a US study to this effect

agreed... potential is there for 10,000 to 12,000 flying hrs. but currently proven/safe flying time is 8000 hrs. usaf is conducting a study for long for verifying or authenticating 300 of its vipers between 10,000 - 12,000 hrs . The program is called SLEP explained above by oscar as well. usaf will start puting its aircraft through SLEP from 2019 onwards.

After surfing and going through oscar's post .. i believe even if we do not have slep for our f16s and simply have a mlu (which in fact is another name / version of slep) , even then we would be better off. I would not call the upcoming or talked about mlu as like the one we have had before. this is because turkish officials have clearly stated that negotiations and work up will require 2 yrs hence the mlu that we are talking of is either of a bigger magnitude or involves some of the features that usaf is going to do on its vipers during slep. granted our preference to get the work done in kamra might take some time as well.
anyways my take is that if we do buy these f16s then even then we have close to 2000 hrs left on the airframe...sufficient for 2/3 yrs... or before we actually remove the covers of the airframe for a slep.

 

[khanasifm]

>>
http://www.governmentbids.com/trans...ion-Program-----SLEP---Prod-en.jsa?id=9816029

 

[thrilainmanila]

i understand to operate an airforce isn't easy given the various costs and i do understand that PAF have made progress in areas such as BVR, AWACs, RADARS, PGMs etc but its shocking how in utter bad shape the PAF is still in if you compare it to yesteryears, having the mirage III in the 60s,70s and 80s was equivalent to having the rafale today. PAF is still not looking beyond a F-16 which forms the elite of its airforce whilst forming the backbone of every other nation. There are multifactors to look at, but if you told me back in 2004 that PAF would only have 74 F-16s and 60 odd JF-17s forming the elite in 2016 everybody would have been shocked, people back then were saying PAF may have the EF-2000 or rafale in addition to the J-10 and JF-17. The IAF seems to have stepped forward and PAF has taken 2 steps back, the era were in now isn't much different to the pressler era if you ask me.

 

[Hamza913]

Better than nothing.

 

[foxbat]

I am not sure why Pakistan is hell bent on procuring old and low config F 16s if JF 17 is as good a plane it is made out to be. It was a different situation when US was donating them for free, but now if they are being bought, the logic does not hold.

 

[umair86pk]

Its funny we compare F-16 to JF-17 both of different class one is a high end tech equipped with lightening fast electronics has longer legs more fire power better air to capablity while other is a light weight class fighter designed to fullfill low end tier not to compete in high end category and is development stage has a way to go other is a timeless proven design which is still the bench mark for modern aircrafts

 

[ejaz007]

I am not sure why Pakistan is hell bent on procuring old and low config F 16s if JF 17 is as good a plane it is made out to be. It was a different situation when US was donating them for free, but now if they are being bought, the logic does not hold.

After MLU these F-16 shall be better than fighters already in our possession.

There is a quality improvement by the induction of these fighters as these are better than F-7's and Mirages in PAF's stock. So what is the issue in their induction.

As far as getting them free of cost the chapter is not entirely closed.

 

[Windjammer]

Hi,

That is what my thinking was-----but my surprise was what caused the Jordanians to openly advertise the sale.

Something must have conspired between these two---pakistan must not have done something that Jordan asked for---otherwise---this whole scenario of open advertisement does not make sense.

I have found out that they do have to advertise to make the deal look transparent, apparently they also advertised last time but no one got the wind of it.

Not sure if this been posted before.


TAI in Talks to Upgrade Pakistani F-16s

ANKARA, Turkey — Tusas Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is negotiating with Pakistan to upgrade 74 Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighters, company officials said.

“The negotiations are being held through our Pakistani representative,” a TAI official said. “We are hopeful about an eventual deal in view of our excellent relations with PAF.”

If finalized the deal will involve upgrades on a batch of 74 PAF F-16 aircraft, including 14 fighters Pakistan will acquire from Jordan.

But for any Turkish-Pakistani deal a US go-ahead is required.

“We are in talks [with the Pakistani officials] but it is not certain that we shall win the contract,” the TAI official said. “These [Pakistani] aircraft will need a US permission for any upgrade program.”


In an earlier upgrade program for 41 F-16s, Pakistan wanted the job to be done locally but failed to win US permission. But the US agreed that TAI could carry out the upgrade work.

In September 2014, TAI delivered the last batch of four upgraded F-16s to PAF. That program involved avionics and structural modernization.

TAI, which assembled F-16 fighter jets in Turkey in the 1980s and 1990s, today manufactures parts for Boeing helicopter-maker Sikorsky. The company also is a participant in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program and the A400M, known in Turkey as the Future Large Aircraft.

TAI has upgraded scores of Turkish F-16s, too. But in a more ambitious program the company has been designing an indigenous Turkish fighter aircraft.

“Pakistan wants the new upgrade program to be done locally, like in the first program,” said a Turkish procurement official. “Local upgrade work is their first choice but if they fail to win the US permission for that they will probably go for the TAI option, like in the previous deal.”

A team of TAI and Turkish procurement officials will visit Pakistan in July for detailed talks on the F-16 upgrade program.

A Turkish official said that Ankara expects contract negotiations with Pakistan, including potential US approval for TAI’s upgrade deal, would take around two years.

“There is a lot to discuss, negotiate and discuss and negotiate again,” said one procurement official familiar with the contract.

He said that at this stage it is not clear what the Pakistani upgrade program will involve.

“The [Pakistani] requirement is not clear in terms of technological concept,” the official said. “It is not clear at this stage what upgrades would be involved and how much the work will cost.”

The previous TAI-PAF contract covering upgrades on 41 aircraft was worth $64.5 million. The 2008 deal saw TAI upgrade Pakistan’s older and then-newly acquired surplus F-16s to Block-52+ standard from 2010 onward.

Industry sources say if the Pakistani requirement is similar to that in the previous contract the new deal could be around $100 million.

Turkey and Pakistan traditionally have had good political relations. In recent years Pakistan has become an emerging market for Turkey’s defense companies, including a deal for the midlife upgrade of Pakistani F-16s, and Turkish engineering support for a logistical support ship for the Pakistani Navy.



A deal for a fleet tanker/replenishment ship was signed by Pakistan's Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works and Turkish technology and engineering firm STM in 2014. The vessel will be built in Karachi under STM supervision and delivered in 2017.

But Turkish officials usually view Pakistan as “not rich enough in cash” to buy the equipment or work Turkish companies wish to sell. A large Turkish-Pakistani deal to help Pakistan build Turkish designed corvettes fizzled out in 2009 when Pakistan's economy tanked, and matters have hardly improved since then.

Yet Turkey also is trying to sell two more of its indigenous systems to Pakistan: the Hurkus, a basic trainer aircraft and the T-129, a helicopter gunship TAI produces under license from the Italian-British AgustaWestlan. For any deal to sell the T-129, however, Turkey must obtain US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the attack helicopter.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...4/tai-talks-upgrade-pakistani-f-16s/84854448/

Apparently there's some misreporting in this article, only the previous 13 and these 15 Falcons will undergo upgrades...not the remaining fleet as they have already been upgraded and need no such requirement.

 

[foxbat]

After MLU these F-16 shall be better than fighters already in our possession.

There is a quality improvement by the induction of these fighters as these are better than F-7's and Mirages in PAF's stock. So what is the issue in their induction.

As far as getting them free of cost the chapter is not entirely closed.

So are these F16s post MLU better than JF 17s ?

 

[araz]

I am not sure why Pakistan is hell bent on procuring old and low config F 16s if JF 17 is as good a plane it is made out to be. It was a different situation when US was donating them for free, but now if they are being bought, the logic does not hold.

You will never understand so sit in a quiet corner and take deep breath and chill.
A[/QUOTE]

So are these F16s post MLU better than JF 17s ?

Different planes for different purpose in short.
A

 

[Windjammer]

As can be seen, these earlier supplied Falcons have already gone through their MLU programme, bird cutter antenna, new HUD and landing lights being prominent.