120,000 Indian troops for Afghanistan or hot air

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

S-2:

Tally up the numbers on both cases, FMS and the money given as 'security assistance' that was employed in the purchases of WoT related equipment, and you are looking at 70 percent or over in terms of aid going to support the WoT effort by Pakistan.

Secondly, as Warracih pointed out, albeit with somewhat incorrect numbers, Pakistan's indirect costs due to the violence from the WoT have been estimated at 30 to 40 billion USD. I would argue that even the non-WoT related utilization of the aid can be related to the WoT, in that boosting Pakistan's conventional capability in some areas, vis vis India, is what allowed resources to be utilized in the West.

I disagree that Pakistan would be fighting a WoT to the extent it is right now had it not been for the US invasion of Afghanistan. FATA is a hub of operations for the Taliban and AQ precisely because the US is across the Western border, not dissimilar to the absence of any significant AQ presence in Iraq prior to the US invasion.

So while US financial support has been generous, it is by no means unearned.

 

[Shoaib_Sham]

S-2:

So while US financial support has been generous, it is by no means unearned.

It is not generous in any sense considering what has been expected from us in return and nor were we provided with equipments and hi-tech stuff that we really wanted for this WoT.

 

[Mav3rick]

In Reply to MAVRICK 3

C130J transports have been ordered to better move troops and commandos to hostile battle grounds outside of sub cnotinent. Its a USA transport because usa/india enviage joint operations.

I suggested the Aircraft were inconsequential because their main purpose was to transport and not actually fight.

With regards to western equipment intergration Israel is already supplying 90% of india new radar for fighter planes. radars ground based and AWACS..

Would you enlighten me with the RADARS (Ground and otherwise) that Israel is providing India to compensate for 90% of her requirements, amuse me please! I hope to see you next time with fact, figures and links to prove them!

tHERE IS ZERO RUSSIAN hitech electroinic equiopment.

Do not speak out of context. The US Government bought an S-300 system to understand the more advanced system so that faults in the Patriots Systems could be rectified. The S-400 SAM, capable of destroying targets 450km's away, able to detect and shoot down stealth Aircraft, Cruise Missiles, Ballistic Missile and even Missiles with a speed of 3km/s, is considered the most advanced SAM system in the world having no equal today!

And israeli/usa equipment is similar at worst.. so no pronlems there.

Most of the Indian setup is dependent of a Russian design and it is not easy to integrate American Jets in to the system without major financial and other repercussions.

As for F18 S/H being inferior don,t you Pakistanis sear by USA fighters.

AND USA F18 with APG81 AESA will be better than current SU30MKI with bars radar.

If I ever have to be in a situation where I have to take on an F-18, I would prefer to be in an SU-30MKI (unless I have the option of EF-2000 or F-22). You are aware of explicit details of the F-18 Super Hornet but atleast 15% of the capability of the RADAR on MKI is classified and it is alleged that that is the capability that really makes a difference so how can you judge a Jet before it is actually tested?

india is not stupid acquiring off russia only.

India will spend with israel USA & france FOR TOT in miolitary hardware in the coming decade.

Indians will not be dependent on 1 state.

Oh mate how I wish India piss Russia off, we too deserve cheaper and comparable Aircraft! How I would love to see more Russian Jets in PAF inventory!

 

[S-2]

"I would argue that even the non-WoT related utilization of the aid can be related to the WoT, in that boosting Pakistan's conventional capability in some areas, vis vis India, is what allowed resources to be utilized in the West."

I'd argue that unless it's the intended purpose of such aid any diversion for the purpose of strengthening your conventional defenses elsewhere would be an illegal misappropriation. Let's hope our audits haven't revealed that to be the case.

I don't consider your government's military operations to have become serious until last August in Bajaur. We've experienced the fits and starts and throes of negotiated settlements for many years prior. We've proved resoundingly that the F.C. is thoroughly incapable of securing your nation's western borders.

"I disagree that Pakistan would be fighting a WoT to the extent it is right now had it not been for the US invasion of Afghanistan."

That's not the point. Once airplanes piled into buildings, it was a near foregone conclusion that war would come to Afghanistan. Most predicted with ease the egress of A.Q. and taliban into Pakistan's FATA and Baluchistan. It was inevitable given historic precedent set twenty-one years earlier.

There was no option to "sit this one out". However much many have otherwise tried to ignore the west, you are and have been fully at war since late 2001. As such, the cost of your defense-indirect and direct, was inevitable. Many nations bear such a burden without assistance. All are expected to as sovereign nations.

Pakistan has been considerably more fortunate than some.

I hope that doesn't change.

 

[slugger]

Funny how speculations and rumors appearing on the pages of a private, non-governmental website provided enough fodder to get Pakistanis so jumpy that 32 posts have been made trying to read a non-event

 

[muse]

Perception is reality, our American friends inform us. Indian friends take note.

 

[Vinod2070]

Indian regulars troops in Afghanistan?? Oh My! the Taliban suicide squads would have a field day while the US soldier watches (sitting comfortably in his armored bunker) the poor, under nourished, ill equipped Indian bloke being blown up instead of him! The Indian troops will be a legitimate targets for the Afghans as being the invaders in Afghanistan along with the US! I think the Indian Army will exhaust its troop numbers within weeks of deployment and would need more to replace the dead ones!

Pakistan should actually welcome Indian troops in Afghanistan and then just sit back and enjoy the view!! Any shred of relationship which India now enjoys with the likes of the Northern Alliance chaps will be up in smoke in no time.

Afghanistan will be another Kashmir for the Indian Army...ONLY MUCH WORSE! I cannot wait!

Great analysis. I hope such people become the decision makers in Pakistan.

Makes the job so much easier for us!

 

[Vinod2070]

The bulk of the 'aid' Pakistan is receiving is going towards reimbursement of logistical and operational expenses. As such it is not exactly 'aid'.

The US is paying us for services rendered, and what we do with teh money afterwords is our business.

A smaller section of the 'aid package' is actually aid for budgetary support and military assistance I believe, but I do not believe the Bush administration attached conditions to that aid in terms of how it was to be utilized.

Lets get facts and figures correct please, there is a lot of misleading and half true information in the media on this issue.

I would be extremely surprised if the Indians offered 100,000 plus troops. You know very well that unless the US wanted to participate and support an invasion of Pakistan, these troops would be useless in terms of a conflict with Pakistan.

Would India deplete its conventional forces to this extent on the Indo-Pak or India-China border? Or will these numbers not make a significant difference?

Numbers in the order of 10,000 make more sense.

I call 'not true' on this story based on the troop numbers mentioned.

It is reimbursement but if reports are to be believed, a highly infalted one.

I saw reports where maintenance costs for vehicles were several times higher than the costs of the vehicles themselves! There are several reports about the inflated nature of the bills presented.

If it is just the reimbursement of the actual costs incurred why are there so many American reports insisting on monitoring the end use? Again, if it is Pakistan's own war why ask for reimbursements? If it is not, this suggests a "Rent an army" picture, not pretty again.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,


If the u s had not taken a laid back casual approach in the early days of its war in afghanistan----the al qaeda would have been a thing of the past and there would be no u s forces in afghanistan by now.

Bin Laden and his cohorts alongwith Mullah omar would have been killed by american troops and rest would have been history----. The age old adage holds true to this day---" if you want to do the job right the first time, you got to do it yourself ".

Pakistan is paying a very heavy price for the incompetence and in-decision making abilities of the u s millitary junta. The u s screwed up on the northern side of the border and pakistanis screwed up on the southern side of afghan border. Paks should have neutralized the incoming taliban and al qaeda with a venegeance----as if there was no tomorrow.

Sadly pakistan is paying a very heavy price for not doing its part of the job in time and not understanding the significance of the threat.

If Mullah Omar was a fool to let the americans raid afghanistan----pakistan had the oppurtunity to shorten the stay. But the fools that there are---they always want to make a vietnam for the u s forces----forgetting what happened to the native vietnamese population in the process.

If there is truth in the main article or if it is a lie----the fact remains that no foreign power wants to see a nuclear pakistan prosper and flourish.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

Funny how speculations and rumors appearing on the pages of a private, non-governmental website provided enough fodder to get Pakistanis so jumpy that 32 posts have been made trying to read a non-event

Well let's see. At Bharat Rakshak Forums on the same topic there are 302 post on this topic.. so who is jumping about.

The funny bit is the original poster at Bharat Rakshak did not bother to do any checking nor even report that it was only a "paper thought" concept.

Yes the topic is dead and so should be left to float down the mire of past topics.

 

[slugger]

Well let's see. At Bharat Rakshak Forums on the same topic there are 302 post on this topic.. so who is jumping about.

err...aren't you at the wrong place

AFAIK this forum is called Pakistan Defence forum

 

[Kasrkin]

I'd argue that unless it's the intended purpose of such aid any diversion for the purpose of strengthening your conventional defenses elsewhere would be an illegal misappropriation. Let's hope our audits haven't revealed that to be the case.

I'd argue that PA/FC/PAF/PN are not military forces subordinate to the US. Much like in the case of Israel, Egypt and others, if the US wants to be considered a serious and genuine ally to the nation state of Pakistan then it should stop acting like Pakistan's armed institutions are up for hire or expect that they should purely act like proxies to the US interests.

If the Americans wish to befriend Pakistan, and help us out of a tough spot in the making of which they very much played a part...then officially and unofficially the US policy of assistance should be based on ensuring Pakistan's national security and prosperity. To put it bluntly, true allies assist you so you can protect yourself, not so you can simply kill their enemies. Pakistan's threat perception, no matter how much some Americans like to pretend otherwise, is still Pakistan's prerogative.

The notion that US aid should explicitly be used in a way that benefits their own undermanned forces in Afghanistan, or that any diversion of the aid to bolster, equip or sustain Pakistan's military assets stationed away from the immediate AQ/Taliban threat ought to be considered 'immoral' or 'illegal' is ridiculous and naive. Alliances don’t work like that, furthermore all 'conventional' equipment can be used against the AQ/Taliban...be it light weight artillery, armored fighting vehicles, F-16 fighter bombers or tanks as well as India. The PA is one organization, it would be incredibly naïve to suggest that i.e. if one brigade in the west is being equipped with body armor or standardized to 155mm through US aid or clearance then others in the east should not be.

If members of the US establishment keep this unproductive, condescending almost contemptuous outlook towards Pakistan's efforts up...I'm afraid our alliance is doomed to failure. If some feel that the aid money to Pakistan is being wasted because the entire bloody tribal regions haven’t been pacified yet then they should compare the relative resources at the disposal of US/NATO forces in Afghanistan to those of Pakistan including the $1 Billion or so yearly aid, that’s not even considering the internal political constraints and complications. There are territories in Afghanistan that the coalition hasn’t fully bothered contesting just like there are in Pakistan. But the west (US in particular) excels at pointing fingers and being self-content. There is a lot of work to be done at both sides, let’s just STFU about each other and get down to it.

Also I think inviting Indian troops into Afghanistan would be an irresponsible move. The last thing Afghanistan needs right now is the bitter mix of Pakistani-Indian rivalry to be played out which is inevitable if the Indians arrive. The Cold War hardly left places better off where it came, this wont either. Afghans need to figure some things out on their own.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

err...aren't you at the wrong place

AFAIK this forum is called Pakistan Defence forum

I feel you may need to think a bit about what I posted. You comment re the number of posts here on this non event, yet I see at other forums on the same topic there are a lot more people jumping about the same non event.

The use in my example of the Bharat Rakshak Forums was just one simple example you might understand.
There are several others, one other example being ‘militaryphotos.net’ forums where the topic took off happily.

So I do apologise that my comment/hint that this topic is being flogged to death elsewhere with as much emotion went over your head.

 

[S-2]

"...it [United States] should stop acting like Pakistan's armed institutions are up for hire..."

I'd say that's actually the attitude displayed by those Pakistanis who insist they've no war of their own to fight and only are engaged at the behest of America. 180 degrees off, stud.

"If the Americans wish to befriend Pakistan, and help us out of a tough spot in the making of which they very much played a part..."

We went to war with your neighbor. Their political leadership, military, and A.Q. affiliates chose your turf on which to hide and did so almost immediately. Hardly unpredictable but to judge by the P.A.'s actions until Bajaur you'd sure think otherwise.

"The notion that US aid should explicitly be used in a way that benefits their own undermanned forces in Afghanistan, or that any diversion of the aid to bolster, equip or sustain Pakistan's military assets stationed away from the immediate AQ/Taliban threat ought to be considered 'immoral' or 'illegal' is ridiculous and naive."

This is disgusting. Kasrkin, were you a decision-maker it would be tantamount to an admission of guilt. Your subterfuge completely attacks the transparency of freely-offered aid.

You may decline the terms and conditions if so specified along with the aid itself but illegally diverting it's use for unintended purposes deserves censure and cessation-plain and simple. If your attitude reflects the views of the Pakistani goverment and military, I'd sincerely hope for that aid to be immediately cut.

Finally, if you'd personally engage in the illegal diversion of aid for other state purposes, I'd question whether it's likely that you'd also do so for personal gain. That same lack of transparency could work to personal benefit. Corruption apparently is commonplace in Pakistan among the political and military elite. Proper accountability would stop people like you from diverting freely-offered American aid inappropriately for ANY purpose.

"Alliances don’t work like that..."

Then walk away but quit lecturing from a soapbox. Nobody's listening when you've an extended palm at the same time. That speaks far louder than your words and only makes you appear disingenuous.

Display your leverage and make it clear to us just how it's going to be. Stop accepting our aid. With allies such as yourself, Kasrkin, I'd be eager for the "alliance's" collapse.

For the sake of your nation, I'll hope that your diplomats and military officers aren't dominated by those of similar ilk to yourself.

 

[XYON]

Great analysis. I hope such people become the decision makers in Pakistan.

Makes the job so much easier for us!

Why don't your forces first step into Afghanistan per say and THEN we shall see whose job will be more easier!