I would rather have that as equipment, armament, training and discipline ... ojectives, strategy and tactics sound good ... only till as such time that the first bulet/shell is not fired ..... then its your machine and your tarining and fire discipline that keeps you alive and nothing more .....
12 best tanks in world
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I would rather have that as equipment, armament, training and discipline ... ojectives, strategy and tactics sound good ... only till as such time that the first bulet/shell is not fired ..... then its your machine and your tarining and fire discipline that keeps you alive and nothing more .....
paritosh
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about the gulf war...i've had this debate many a times...the americans were clever....all the iraqi radar stations and command and control posts were blown to smithereens right in the first phase of the war...the iraqi's had one of the largest ensemble of t-72s(considered deadly for their day and age)...but whence their C&C structures were out of place....iraqi's were left with one of the largets ensemble of 'blind' t-72s...as a result only four american tanks were destroyed against the whole of the armored cores of the iraqis.
as far as the indians are concerned...we have an effective data-link in our armed forces owing to an advanced IT domestic industry...and an effective space command.
numerical superiority DOES matter...when the leverage to the other side is not much...i hope you agree.
well purely in the armoured war fighting sense if you were to take a look at the force composition you shall find that the bulk of Iraqi armour was made up of T-69 (Chinese) and not T-72s. Also the relative failure of their armour was mainly due to the better protection of M1s (they had DU reinforced composite armour as also were using way better KE penetrators again superbly made more dense by the usage of DU in addition to tungsten which gave them a first shot kill probability of virtually 100%).
as for the C3I, that was just one of the reasons for the collapse of Iraqi army.
ok at long last I think we can start discussing Arjun. the poor tank as had so much bad publicity from IA that its more of a mystery for people today.
Post user evaluation (IA evaluations) of 2000-01 of Arjun and T-90, it was decided to induct T-90 for credible reasons.
a. Lack of developed or complete tank. Its FCS was miserable, there was a problem of underpowering and poor engine performance in deserts where temperatures went over 45'C in open.
b. Lack of support infrastructure in terms of fording capacity etc (read bridging equipment)
c. lack of dedicate transport system
etc .... were just a few. At the same time claims of too large, too heavy and too slow were also made.
Post Arjuns failures in 2001, DRDO was threatened with closure of whole program by IA which ruled out any more orders (of 124 made under pressure of GoI)and as such it got down to seriously sorting out the problems it faced with the tank which met ultimately with great success only by late 2006 by which time IA had ruled out induction of the same.
result:
1. Arjun today is in class of M1, Leopard, Challenger, LeClerc type of tanks and incorporated latest designing trends of West of blow out compartments which afford crew survivability in an environment of exploding tank munition in case the tank is hit. So it is based on enhanced crew protection for after hit conditions and sports composite armor "Kanchan" which has been tested to hold true to a direct hit from Israeli APFSDs KE with DU reinforcement even at close proximities. Thus giving it a high first hit survivability akin to M1 and others and making it into a true stand alone hunter-killer class of tank (far different from situation in 2001)
2. Induction of BFAT (military acronym for heavy flat cars used by railways for transports) and Sarvatra (MLC-70 type bridging equipment) allowed easier transportation.
3. FCS has drastically been improved to operate at sustained internal temperature of 45'C. Since internal temps are higher in Rajasthan sector, the tank has been incorporated with inbuilt air conditioning system thus ensuring optimal temperature for electronics and computers to work.
4. Contrary to popular misconception, its weight is more easily distributed along its base in comparision to T-90 etc thus making it easier for the tank to be operated in desert conditions.
5. DRDO has finished designing a tank protection suite on lines of Kontakt-5 ERA and Shtora-1 (more in line with yet to be fielded Relikt)unique to IA requirements for the tank and the same is being tested at present.
remaining information can be seen from
Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arjun Tank?s Defensive Systems To Undergo Trials | India Defence Online
Failure of Arjun Tank is an example of failed Indian technocrats running after quick money American body shop contracts
Harish Baliga
Jul. 13, 2008
It is a shame that the Arjun Tank Indian indigenous manufacturing efforts of high quality defense armor has miserably failed.
It is the failure Indian science and engineering. It just shows where the country has gone under the guidance of dollar and euro loving India Inc..
Fourteen Arjun tanks were handed over to the Indian Army for user trials last year but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects. These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.
Now the Defense research organization DRDO calls for investigation on sabotage. There is no sabotage. Indian Army has denied the same. It is a just failed Indian engineering and poor quality.
This just shows the what talented Indian engineers are and were doing in the last twenty five years.
The young talented engineers served as cyber slaves working for American and European companies fixing their legacy systems and picking up useless call center phone calls.
India is now void of technical talent to build and service real world class engineering.
IndiaDaily - Failure of Arjun Tank is an example of failed Indian technocrats running after quick money American body shop contracts
Harish Baliga
Jul. 13, 2008
It is a shame that the Arjun Tank Indian indigenous manufacturing efforts of high quality defense armor has miserably failed.
It is the failure Indian science and engineering. It just shows where the country has gone under the guidance of dollar and euro loving India Inc..
Fourteen Arjun tanks were handed over to the Indian Army for user trials last year but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects. These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.
Now the Defense research organization DRDO calls for investigation on sabotage. There is no sabotage. Indian Army has denied the same. It is a just failed Indian engineering and poor quality.
This just shows the what talented Indian engineers are and were doing in the last twenty five years.
The young talented engineers served as cyber slaves working for American and European companies fixing their legacy systems and picking up useless call center phone calls.
India is now void of technical talent to build and service real world class engineering.
IndiaDaily - Failure of Arjun Tank is an example of failed Indian technocrats running after quick money American body shop contracts
Arjun under fire, Army wants another MBT
Manu Pubby
Posted: Saturday , Apr 26, 2008 at 2354 hrs IST
NEW DELHI, APRIL 25: The latest round of user trials has made it clear that even after 30 years of development, Arjun Tank comes nowhere near meeting minimum operational requirements of the Army.
However, what is worrying the top brass is that DRDOs insistence on inducting larger numbers of the indigenous tank will come in the way of a newer, better Main Battle Tank (MBT) of the future that is now required by the Army.
While Army HQ is not even thinking about extending its original order of 124 Arjun Tanks for two regiments, given that it is unacceptable for induction in the present form, the top brass is concerned that continued DRDO efforts on the Arjun will delay its requirement of a futuristic MBT.
The Army has now told DRDO that there is no point bickering about the past and the Arjun Tank should be treated as a technology demonstrator and a platform to work on a totally new tank design for the future.
There is a certain degree of urgency in the Armys demand as it is aware of an increasing void in the tank armoury and its requirement of 3,500 tanks to replace the ageing T 72 MBT.
After 30 years, the Arjun has not fructified, and now we need to start with a new design and a new tank. We have always said that a next (generation) tank has to come out in due course of time. We now have a base and expertise to start on the futuristic tank, Lt Gen KDS Shekhawat, who till February was Director General of Mechanised Forces at Army HQ, said.
The current round of winter trials, where the German-origin power pack of the tank failed four times within a run of 1,000 kms, is the latest in the series of setbacks that have dogged the project since its inception in 1974.
The Army is disappointed that the tank has failed to deliver on every single count that was citied for the prolonged indigenous research project. The engine, tracks, transmissions and gunners sight that together account for 60 per cent of its cost are all imported.
When we placed the order, 60 per cent of the components were imported. It was going to cost us Rs 25 crore at a time when the T 90 was available for below Rs 10 crore. But it was an indigenous effort, so we agreed for 124 tanks. But not much has changed. We still remain dependant on foreign firms, and there is a lot of unhappiness as it has not met operational requirements of the Army, feels General VP Malik, who was the Army chief during the Kargil conflict.
The Army is not just questioning the technology of the tank but is also worried about Arjuns reliability factor given that various components of the tank have not been tested in harsh climatic conditions and terrain unique to India.
As demonstrated during the ongoing Accelerated Usage-cum-Reliability Trials (AUCRT) of the Arjun tank (crucial to clear it for bulk production), the German engine failed four times as it had never been extensively tested by the Army in desert conditions in the past.
Besides, the Army also found unacceptable the chipping of the gun barrel during firing trials. The old problem in the hydro pneumatic suspension system also resurfaced.
The next litmus test for the Arjun comes on May 5 when DRDO will make a presentation at Army HQ to explain the defects and the steps taken to rectify the engine faults. Ironically, the DRDO, which was supposed to clarify on the trials this month itself, delayed the presentation by close to two weeks, saying it needs more time to prepare a report. After the DRDO presentation, the Army will take a call to either repeat the third round of AUCRT trials or proceed to the fourth summer round of the trials.
EXPERTSPEAK
General VP Malik, former Army Chief I can see a lot of unhappiness with the quality of the tank. It is primarily because of very long delay. Even at the end of it all, the tank has not come up to the operational satisfaction of the Army. I am all for self-reliance but we have to make the Arjun more indigenous than it is today.
Lt Gen KDS Shekhawat, former DG, Mechanised Forces No point bickering over past. It is gone. Tanks have a certain shelf life, and now we need a new design looking into the future. Ultimately, it is the men who have to use the tank. If they have confidence, they will love the equipment.
Brig Gurmeet Kanwal, director, Centre for Land Warfare Studies I dont really see a major future of the Arjun as the MBT of India. Over all, the Arjun tank has not met certain major parameters. However, the Army had expected that the two regiments to be inducted would meet requirements so that extensive trials could be carried out.
AV Singh, former defence secretary Regardless of the shortcomings, we must encourage it as an indigenous effort. As far as opening development to the Indian private sector is concerned, it will add to the competition, improve quality and will shorten the development time.
Manu Pubby
Posted: Saturday , Apr 26, 2008 at 2354 hrs IST
NEW DELHI, APRIL 25: The latest round of user trials has made it clear that even after 30 years of development, Arjun Tank comes nowhere near meeting minimum operational requirements of the Army.
However, what is worrying the top brass is that DRDOs insistence on inducting larger numbers of the indigenous tank will come in the way of a newer, better Main Battle Tank (MBT) of the future that is now required by the Army.
While Army HQ is not even thinking about extending its original order of 124 Arjun Tanks for two regiments, given that it is unacceptable for induction in the present form, the top brass is concerned that continued DRDO efforts on the Arjun will delay its requirement of a futuristic MBT.
The Army has now told DRDO that there is no point bickering about the past and the Arjun Tank should be treated as a technology demonstrator and a platform to work on a totally new tank design for the future.
There is a certain degree of urgency in the Armys demand as it is aware of an increasing void in the tank armoury and its requirement of 3,500 tanks to replace the ageing T 72 MBT.
After 30 years, the Arjun has not fructified, and now we need to start with a new design and a new tank. We have always said that a next (generation) tank has to come out in due course of time. We now have a base and expertise to start on the futuristic tank, Lt Gen KDS Shekhawat, who till February was Director General of Mechanised Forces at Army HQ, said.
The current round of winter trials, where the German-origin power pack of the tank failed four times within a run of 1,000 kms, is the latest in the series of setbacks that have dogged the project since its inception in 1974.
The Army is disappointed that the tank has failed to deliver on every single count that was citied for the prolonged indigenous research project. The engine, tracks, transmissions and gunners sight that together account for 60 per cent of its cost are all imported.
When we placed the order, 60 per cent of the components were imported. It was going to cost us Rs 25 crore at a time when the T 90 was available for below Rs 10 crore. But it was an indigenous effort, so we agreed for 124 tanks. But not much has changed. We still remain dependant on foreign firms, and there is a lot of unhappiness as it has not met operational requirements of the Army, feels General VP Malik, who was the Army chief during the Kargil conflict.
The Army is not just questioning the technology of the tank but is also worried about Arjuns reliability factor given that various components of the tank have not been tested in harsh climatic conditions and terrain unique to India.
As demonstrated during the ongoing Accelerated Usage-cum-Reliability Trials (AUCRT) of the Arjun tank (crucial to clear it for bulk production), the German engine failed four times as it had never been extensively tested by the Army in desert conditions in the past.
Besides, the Army also found unacceptable the chipping of the gun barrel during firing trials. The old problem in the hydro pneumatic suspension system also resurfaced.
The next litmus test for the Arjun comes on May 5 when DRDO will make a presentation at Army HQ to explain the defects and the steps taken to rectify the engine faults. Ironically, the DRDO, which was supposed to clarify on the trials this month itself, delayed the presentation by close to two weeks, saying it needs more time to prepare a report. After the DRDO presentation, the Army will take a call to either repeat the third round of AUCRT trials or proceed to the fourth summer round of the trials.
EXPERTSPEAK
General VP Malik, former Army Chief I can see a lot of unhappiness with the quality of the tank. It is primarily because of very long delay. Even at the end of it all, the tank has not come up to the operational satisfaction of the Army. I am all for self-reliance but we have to make the Arjun more indigenous than it is today.
Lt Gen KDS Shekhawat, former DG, Mechanised Forces No point bickering over past. It is gone. Tanks have a certain shelf life, and now we need a new design looking into the future. Ultimately, it is the men who have to use the tank. If they have confidence, they will love the equipment.
Brig Gurmeet Kanwal, director, Centre for Land Warfare Studies I dont really see a major future of the Arjun as the MBT of India. Over all, the Arjun tank has not met certain major parameters. However, the Army had expected that the two regiments to be inducted would meet requirements so that extensive trials could be carried out.
AV Singh, former defence secretary Regardless of the shortcomings, we must encourage it as an indigenous effort. As far as opening development to the Indian private sector is concerned, it will add to the competition, improve quality and will shorten the development time.
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Kharian_Beast
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I heard that Pakistan was offered the Leclerq with domestic production clause but it was never field tested. It's a great tank and would pound the T-90 any given day. Would have been a great asset along with Al Khalid.
i can post another thousand claiming that even M1 is a tin pot, its redundant if you can not elaborate on your points ..... please have a discussion on the parameters which are stated/given and deliberate on that ........
I did say at the start of my post that the IA is biggest enemy of the said equipment ...... so if you want to denounce it, let it be in terms of comparative features.
any links for that? for it is not true as far as I can make out.
IceCold
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I don't get it why would indian army be the greast enemy of its on home grown products. This is unfair and more so then by this logic i should assume you also mean that Indian airforce is the greatest enemy because it too does not find LCA very encouraging.
thanks for the query
the reasoning is the so called doctrine being fine tuned and the change in logistical set up ..... this would definitely entail some amount of resources to be used up to set up an adequate base repair depots, transportation, dedicated spare stores as also munitions to be stocked .... all requires considerable time
IA would rather spend this amount on more gadgets which it needs than here as T-90 induction was relatively hassel free due to similarity in the above mentioned aspectssto the existing T-72s.
Case of being too lazy and Arjun being ready as a tank only after 2006 when army finally decided to bury it. now it is just the above reasons as also bruised egos and need for change in mentality ....
If your going to rank tanks you have to subdivde them and then decide if you count only the latest examples or all serving examples. ie do you only count the M1A2SEPv2 TUSK or do you also count the M1A2SEP, M1A2, and M1A1D? If we only count the latest examples
Heavy/modern
M1A2SEPv2TUSK
Challenger II CLIP
Leopard 2A6M+
Merkava IV+
K2 Black Panther
Type 10 (TK-X)
Medium/modern or Heavy/mostly modern
Arjun
T-90M
Type 99II
Leclerc
Type 90
Areite
K1A1
Medium/mostly modern
T-80UD/T-84
Al Khalid
Type 98
Each tank listed in a category is roughly comparable to every other tank in a category.
Heavy/modern
M1A2SEPv2TUSK
Challenger II CLIP
Leopard 2A6M+
Merkava IV+
K2 Black Panther
Type 10 (TK-X)
Medium/modern or Heavy/mostly modern
Arjun
T-90M
Type 99II
Leclerc
Type 90
Areite
K1A1
Medium/mostly modern
T-80UD/T-84
Al Khalid
Type 98
Each tank listed in a category is roughly comparable to every other tank in a category.
some selected extract from article written By Lt. Gen. (Retd) Harkeerat Singh about alkhalid tank / DRDO
*** Neither the complacency nor the condescension are warranted. For the issue is not whether India can place an order for and deploy a tank that will neutralise the Al Khalid. It is that Pakistan's minuscule defence research establishment is far more able to meet the country's genuine defence needs than are the 36,000 scientists of the DRDO
Let me begin with the Al Khalid. Even a cursory look at its capabilities shows that except on one parameter, where no information was given in the news report, it is an armoured corps commander's dream. In its offensive capabilities, and speed on level firm ground, it meets every requirement that the Indian army's most up-to-date GSQR for India's MBT project more than a decade ago. More important, it has a fire control system that enables it to acquire and shoot at targets while moving at high speeds over rough terrain. This is something that India's mainstay, the T-72, cannot do (some are being upgraded to have this capability). The fact that all this capability has been packed in a tank with only a 1200 HP engine, means that it has an overall weight of 40 tonnes or thereabouts against the Arjun's 55 tonnes. This will give it a lower profile than the typical MBT and make it harder to hit
***
*** Neither the complacency nor the condescension are warranted. For the issue is not whether India can place an order for and deploy a tank that will neutralise the Al Khalid. It is that Pakistan's minuscule defence research establishment is far more able to meet the country's genuine defence needs than are the 36,000 scientists of the DRDO
Let me begin with the Al Khalid. Even a cursory look at its capabilities shows that except on one parameter, where no information was given in the news report, it is an armoured corps commander's dream. In its offensive capabilities, and speed on level firm ground, it meets every requirement that the Indian army's most up-to-date GSQR for India's MBT project more than a decade ago. More important, it has a fire control system that enables it to acquire and shoot at targets while moving at high speeds over rough terrain. This is something that India's mainstay, the T-72, cannot do (some are being upgraded to have this capability). The fact that all this capability has been packed in a tank with only a 1200 HP engine, means that it has an overall weight of 40 tonnes or thereabouts against the Arjun's 55 tonnes. This will give it a lower profile than the typical MBT and make it harder to hit
***
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