10 Privileges that PTM Enjoys but Not TLP

[Areesh]

Tribal belt need carpet bombings ..

What kind of a stupid post is this???

 

[Jungibaaz]

Very good points.

I just ended a debate where the other guy was literally making such moronic points, and outright lying.

Reading an intelligent piece like this, was a breath of fresh air.

Much obliged. You are actually right to spot the political calculus that might be employed by opposition parties though. However, I’d say this dynamic will be more visible when it’s employed with PMLQ and the government’s current coalition partners rather than fringe elements like PTM.

 

[That Guy]

Much obliged. You are actually right to spot the political calculus that might be employed by opposition parties though. However, I’d say this dynamic will be more visible when it’s employed with PMLQ and the government’s current coalition partners rather than fringe elements like PTM.

I find it odd that foreign media outlets and governments are trying to make PTM a bigger group than it actually is.

One wonders if they would be better off supporting other established parties, who're also willing to sell their morals.

 

[YeBeWarned]

On one hand we have toxic PTM leadership rhetoric relating to the state and Punjabis and on the opposite hand are opinions and careless remarks such as this. Why can’t we all accept each other as Pakistanis?

Ours is a big country, and it was never meant to be a Borg-like, singleminded, unipolar entity. We are a big mix of cultures, ethnicities and politics. Jinnah had a vision of a multipolar democracy.

Dismissing or outlawing disenfranchised peoples is a bad approach. You’ve gone a few steps further, kindly retract these remarks. I’m sure you don’t actually believe what you’ve written there.

Sooner or Later PTM will transform or merge with TTP and JuA, I remember the times when Taliban were also called bhatkay hue bhai , and misguided brothers but we have seen the time when PAF bomb these people in their strongholds and tanks were rolling . Tribal Belt has a long history of being and harboring Anti Pakistan elements cause much of them never get along with the idea of Pakistan, many of Tribal's still want a borderless region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, where there will be no LAW, Drugs , smuggling and kidnapping will be usual, and anyone who commit crimes in other develop cities will run to these NO GO areas for safety . We have all seen what this Pashtoon nationalism has cost us , and if Carpet bombing is what it takes to protect the Borders of Pakistan so be it .

What kind of a stupid post is this???

Ref Post #79 .

 

[Areesh]

Sooner or Later PTM will transform or merge with TTP and JuA, I remember the times when Taliban were also called bhatkay hue bhai , and misguided brothers but we have seen the time when PAF bomb these people in their strongholds and tanks were rolling . Tribal Belt has a long history of being and harboring Anti Pakistan elements cause much of them never get along with the idea of Pakistan, many of Tribal's still want a borderless region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, where there will be no LAW, Drugs , smuggling and kidnapping will be usual, and anyone who commit crimes in other develop cities will run to these NO GO areas for safety . We have all seen what this Pashtoon nationalism has cost us , and if Carpet bombing is what it takes to protect the Borders of Pakistan so be it .



Ref Post #79 .

Still no justification for calling for something like carpet bombing or anything like that

 

[YeBeWarned]

Still no justification for calling for something like carpet bombing or anything like that

Not on Civilians of course but on PTM .. that region is vulnerable and sooner or later Army will be conduction more operations there ..

 

[Areesh]

Not on Civilians of course but on PTM .. that region is vulnerable and sooner or later Army will be conduction more operations there ..

Army is releasing Ehsan ullah Ehsan type guys and here you are suggesting carpet bombing on ptm

Bhai koyi dimagh hi use kar lo

 

[YeBeWarned]

Army is releasing Ehsan ullah Ehsan type guys and here you are suggesting carpet bombing on ptm

Bhai koyi dimagh hi use kar lo

bhai chill karo, the news is yet not confirmed .. If he is escape that most likely the issue of Police and FC, there are many who still sympathies with TTP and their religious cause . A lot of jails in KPK has some sort of TTP sympathizers .

 

[Areesh]

bhai chill karo, the news is yet not confirmed .. If he is escape that most likely the issue of Police and FC, there are many who still sympathies with TTP and their religious cause . A lot of jails in KPK has some sort of TTP sympathizers .

If he escaped then it is failure of Pakistani state and military. Simple

Ptm would get a massive boost from this. No doubt about it

 

[M. Sarmad]

The Pashtun appeasement policy of the state and establishment's unfathomable leniency towards PTM's massive anti-state & anti-Punjab propaganda campaign has irked and humiliated the otherwise apolitical masses and commoners. What's so special about PTM? The state should act now

 

[Jungibaaz]

I find it odd that foreign media outlets and governments are trying to make PTM a bigger group than it actually is.

One wonders if they would be better off supporting other established parties, who're also willing to sell their morals.

I think it is overplayed by foreign media for sure. But I don’t suspect any wrong motives when the likes of say Al Jazeera pay attention. As for local parties, there’s a reason they reacted in the way they have.

The current opposition feels victimised by army backing of Imran Khan. So they are naturally inclined to be sympathetic to PTM and their grievances. The added bonus is that it benefits them politically vs PTI.

However, as I said. They aren’t going all out in their support. If they were to go all out. There’d be open support, from rhetoric to support of PTM related bills in the National Assembly. They will not cross the establishment in this way.

As for whether PTM is on its own, perceived larger than it ought to be. I would say that they are a local movement only. But there is no doubt that they are BIG on their sphere of influence. They draw crowds in Tribal areas. And as I’ve tried to point out unsuccessfully on this forum, they are echoing the concerns raised by ordinary people in those areas. And another big concern for me is that if legitimate space for their concerns to be addressed/reconciled politically is not given, it may make the situation worse, PTM or no PTM.

And historically we as a nation, and army leadership have a bad track record when it comes to repression and allowing political space. Whenever we try repression, we get foreign agencies stepping in and using disgruntled elements against us (Balochistan, East Pakistan...), whenever we reconcile them and invite them to partake in politics, we get good results (multiple insurgencies have been defused in this way, right now Baloch militants are putting down arms and embracing the state).

The Pashtun appeasement policy of the state and establishment's unfathomable leniency towards PTM's massive anti-state & anti-Punjab propaganda campaign has irked and humiliated the otherwise apolitical masses and commoners. What's so special about PTM? The state should act now

A really tough question we must ask ourselves, and answers honestly. Is why people are saying such seditious things, why are some tribals attending these rallies despite anti-army, anti-Punjab etc sentiment? Do they have any reasons to be thinking this way?

I think people in these areas have had enough of war. And a partial cost of army presence and operations in this area is being revealed to us. That cost is that checkpoints are disrupting their lives, some tribals who had family members that would have been involved in militancy will be aggrieved, and they are additionally claiming that their people are being picked up by agencies, which is entirely believable. Whether or not those agencies had cause for doing this, it’s still extrajudicial.

Until we address the root causes, I think it’s folly to simply get emotionally charged responses to the likes of PTM and their rhetoric.

Not on Civilians of course but on PTM .. that region is vulnerable and sooner or later Army will be conduction more operations there ..

And what of civilians attending PTM rallies? There is cross over and support from locals. We need to stop denying that they have popular support from ordinary tribals.

Sooner or Later PTM will transform or merge with TTP and JuA, I remember the times when Taliban were also called bhatkay hue bhai , and misguided brothers but we have seen the time when PAF bomb these people in their strongholds and tanks were rolling . Tribal Belt has a long history of being and harboring Anti Pakistan elements cause much of them never get along with the idea of Pakistan, many of Tribal's still want a borderless region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, where there will be no LAW, Drugs , smuggling and kidnapping will be usual, and anyone who commit crimes in other develop cities will run to these NO GO areas for safety . We have all seen what this Pashtoon nationalism has cost us , and if Carpet bombing is what it takes to protect the Borders of Pakistan so be it .

Ref Post #79 .

I completely disagree. Let’s just leave it at that in your suggested course of action.

Ironically, if you do repress PTM, their supporters, tribals in general. Pick up dissidents and interrogate them, brand all who criticise you as anti-state. Then this is a sure way to make certain that they do look elsewhere for political leverage, including militancy, foreign support etc.

Repression is one thing that can turn a civilian movement into a militancy. We’ve seen it before in our history. To that end, your post reads like a bleak self-fulfilling tragedy; PTM are militant hence repress them, whereas repressing them might cause the exact situation that you are citing.

 

[M. Sarmad]

A really tough question we must ask ourselves, and answers honestly. Is why people are saying such seditious things, why are some tribals attending these rallies despite anti-army, anti-Punjab etc sentiment? Do they have any reasons to be thinking this way?

I think people in these areas have had enough of war. And a partial cost of army presence and operations in this area is being revealed to us. That cost is that checkpoints are disrupting their lives, some tribals who had family members that would have been involved in militancy will be aggrieved, and they are additionally claiming that their people are being picked up by agencies, which is entirely believable. Whether or not those agencies had cause for doing this, it’s still extrajudicial.

Until we address the root causes, I think it’s folly to simply get emotionally charged responses to the likes of PTM and their rhetoric.

PTM has been cleverly exploiting both anti-establishment and anti-Punjab sentiments among different groups of people. PTM had been successfully employing racial dog-whistles from day 1. And they have been towing the US/Indian line to garner international support. The state has chosen to ignore all this because of their Pashtun appeasement policy.

The problem is that the people of FATA (Waziristan specifically) are blaming everyone for their miseries while conveniently ignoring their own faults. We cannot let the people of just two districts (SWD & NWD)take entire country hostage.

 

[YeBeWarned]

And what of civilians attending PTM rallies? There is cross over and support from locals. We need to stop denying that they have popular support from ordinary tribals.

if rounding up civilians and young boys can be done in 92 than why now again ? PTM is anti Pakistan and not discreetly like MQM but openly threatening the Army and constitution of Pakistan, if people decide to side with them so bullet or bomb be their fate it doesn't matter . I'd rather stop this movement in its infant before it turn bloody and innocent Pakistan from other ethnicity has to pay the price of these Anti National Pashtoon, we have had enough of their Humara illaqa and Pashtoonistan BS . Ordinary Tribal needs to understand that now its time to pick up a side, Afghanistan/Pashtoonistan or Pakistan , or else stay in your FATA and don't bring your Tribal cave mentality to Cities like Karachi .

I completely disagree. Let’s just leave it at that in your suggested course of action.

Ironically, if you do repress PTM, their supporters, tribals in general. Pick up dissidents and interrogate them, brand all who criticise you as anti-state. Then this is a sure way to make certain that they do look elsewhere for political leverage, including militancy, foreign support etc.

Repression is one thing that can turn a civilian movement into a militancy. We’ve seen it before in our history. To that end, your post reads like a bleak self-fulfilling tragedy; PTM are militant hence repress them, whereas repressing them might cause the exact situation that you are citing.

So just because there are civilians in PTM so no action must be taken ? Would you say the same for MQM ? BLA ? TTP ? all of them has Civilian support in their high times .

Pakistan is weak that is why these PTM like brain dead scums can blackmail the state into submission , maybe MQM should also gather some 50,000 Armed men and get morcha band maybe than state would listen to them ? so does BLA ..

If he escaped then it is failure of Pakistani state and military. Simple

Ptm would get a massive boost from this. No doubt about it

I am hoping he didn't but if he did than we have to see first under who's custody he was in ..

 

[Jungibaaz]

PTM has been cleverly exploiting both anti-establishment and anti-Punjab sentiments among different groups of people. PTM had been successfully employing racial dog-whistles from day 1. And they have been towing the US/Indian line to garner international support. The state has chosen to ignore all this because of their Pashtun appeasement policy.

The problem is that the people of FATA (Waziristan specifically) are blaming everyone for their miseries while conveniently ignoring their own faults. We cannot let the people of just two districts (SWD & NWD)take entire country hostage.

Why are tribals then backing PTM if what you say is accurately framed? Are tribals stupid, are they so stupid that they don’t know what’s good for them? Why have they allowed this movement among them, if these concerns aren’t their own, do we understand their day to day problems better than they understand them?

Also, on the last point. FATA until recently was completely lawless as we all know. No government, no army. All change comes with growing pains. But what is your suggestion then based on your (mis)characterisation of the people of FATA? Forget just PTM, what’s to be done about those seditious tribals who went on long march, attend rallies, or just generally are unhappy with the government and army?

if rounding up civilians and young boys can be done in 92 than why now again ? PTM is anti Pakistan and not discreetly like MQM but openly threatening the Army and constitution of Pakistan, if people decide to side with them so bullet or bomb be their fate it doesn't matter . I'd rather stop this movement in its infant before it turn bloody and innocent Pakistan from other ethnicity has to pay the price of these Anti National Pashtoon, we have had enough of their Humara illaqa and Pashtoonistan BS . Ordinary Tribal needs to understand that now its time to pick up a side, Afghanistan/Pashtoonistan or Pakistan , or else stay in your FATA and don't bring your Tribal cave mentality to Cities like Karachi .



So just because there are civilians in PTM so no action must be taken ? Would you say the same for MQM ? BLA ? TTP ? all of them has Civilian support in their high times .

Pakistan is weak that is why these PTM like brain dead scums can blackmail the state into submission , maybe MQM should also gather some 50,000 Armed men and get morcha band maybe than state would listen to them ? so does BLA ..



I am hoping he didn't but if he did than we have to see first under who's custody he was in ..

Please don’t make an equivalence between them and TTP and BLA. Even DG ISPR has never even alluded to such an equivalence. And please don’t post any random and unverified, out of context clips and tweets as evidence of equivalence. PTM has not conducted any incidents the likes of which TTP and BLA have done.

Their rhetoric I agree is toxic, but if what you’ve been suggesting in this thread seems based off of an assumption that tribals are being unreasonable and are violent/backward enough to warrant repression and large scale operations.

And to people demanding more operations. PTM are not an armed militancy. Army operations and presence has upset some locals, how can the fix for this be more operations and more repression?

 

[YeBeWarned]

Please don’t make an equivalence between them and TTP and BLA. Even DG ISPR has never even alluded to such an equivalence. And please don’t post any random and unverified, out of context clips and tweets as evidence of equivalence. PTM has not conducted any incidents the likes of which TTP and BLA have done.

so they become unverified ? and for DG ISPR there is a Pashtoon biased , he doesn't want to sound racist , he think PTM are misguided brothers but in reality they are terrorists . In my opinion far dangerous than TTP and BLA , I guess anti State title is only for Urdu speaking

Their rhetoric I agree is toxic, but if what you’ve been suggesting in this thread seems based off of an assumption that tribals are being unreasonable and are violent/backward enough to warrant repression and large scale operations.

Thing is they are not just spewing rhetoric anymore they attacking Army , how many times MQM attack army before they launch a full scale Operation ? the thing is Army might be thinking that we may use them as some sort of Assets or please the Pashtoon but reality is Army will eventually have to deal with them before they start beheading them .

And to people demanding more operations. PTM are not an armed militancy. Army operations and presence has upset some locals, how can the fix for this be more operations and more repression?

PTM is very much armed, more Armed than BLA MQM combine because don't forget " Hatyaar humara Zeewar hai " there are a lot unaccounted guns in Tribal belt and sooner or later they will come out as TTP 2.0 .