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$1.65-bn SAR aircraft deal likely to take off during Modi’s Japan visit

simply do not understand why we are pursuing this deal ....
as far as politico-strategic reasons are concerned ...when it came to MMRCA we did not give in to even Obama's charm offensive .

same argument was forwarded that time that India missed opportunity to forge closer ties by awarding MMRCA deal to USA .
we stuck to our guns and selected the best among all sheerly on technical basis and then opted for the lowest bidder .

why are we eager to push for such a costly deal when the said money can be better utilized in other ways ?


to put in perspective people made huge hue and cry when original bill for Gorshkov swelled up from 800 million $ to 2.3 billion dollar .

and now India is willing to shell out 1.5 billion $ for these 15 planes ...

thanks for bringing the price comparison in this debate .

It simply shocking to see the price differences between competing crafts .

Feel vindicated that we are unnecessarily going for this deal.


least we can do is postpone the deal for few years ..till our economy picks up and we have enough funds .

this deal should not go through at the expense other much more vital projects that have been stalled due to lack of funds .



@Abingdonboy , @sandy_3126 , @he-man , @Sergi

Your comments, please !


First :life cycle costs are lower. Reliability of the system is higher.
Second : Operating envelope of the aircraft is much larger.

Initial cost may be larger, but overall cost and operating map benefits compared to other aircraft led to selection of this a/c.

Maruti gypsy can be used as an offroad vehicle and so can be a Range rover sport, but the cost difference will be immense between the two.
 
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There is one more thread where finance ministry says there is not enough money for defence procurement. And here we are, 1.6$ billion USD for this machine which is of less priority then guns for the army, planes for air force and submarines for the navy.
 
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Abe had promised to change the Pacifist Constitution. He has majority. What is stopping him from scrapping Cold war era law?
 
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A pending deal involving purchase of 15 ShinMaywa US-2i Amphibious and Rescue (SAR) aircraft for $1.65 billion is likely to be sealed when Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits Japan shortly.

MoD sources said in march, a delegation of senior officials, including from the Navy, visited the facilities where the amphibious aircraft is being produced. They also sought to iron out issues related to modifications "that would allow Japan to export the aircraft to India without violating its self-imposed defence export restrictions".

A friend-or-foe identification system will be removed from the aircraft, a defence official said. Both countries had, at that time, also discussed the possibility of India being permitted to assemble the aircraft indigenously, giving it access to Japanese military technology. The deal was put on hold because of general election in India.

"The deal is significant for a variety of reasons. On the surface, it’s another indicator of growing cooperation between India and Japan on security matters. The deal is doubly significant in the context of India’s relations with Japan because once India clinches the deal, it will become the first country to purchase defence equipment from Japan since the latter’s self-imposed ban on defence exports began in 1967. The deal is important for Abe as it would open up Japan's defence industry for additional contracts with foreign partners,” said diplomatic sources.

Modi is expected to visit Tokyo enroute the BRICS summit in July, where he will meet with his counterpart, Shinzo Abe.

According to Japanese officials, the proposed sale of ShinMaywa US-2i amphibious, fixed-wing aircraft would not infringe on Japan's self-imposed ban on arms exports because the aircraft to be given to India will be unarmed and can be used for civilian purposes. The plane, built by ShinMaywa Industries (7224.T), could be outfitted for firefighting or as a kind of amphibious hospital and costs an estimated $110 million per unit. The plan is to deliver two aircraft and, then, assemble the rest of the planes with an Indian partner.

The Navy had issued requests for information on amphibian planes in 2010 to ShinMaywa, Canada's Bombardier for CL-415 platform, Russia's Beriev for Be-200 and US/German company Dornier for Seastar CD2. The Navy is also interested in Japanese patrol vessels and electronic warfare equipment as Tokyo moves further on easing its ban on military exports, the officials said.

$1.65-bn SAR aircraft deal likely to take off during Modi’s Japan visit - Financial Express

Which means we will be buying 15 US-2i.
 
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Abe had promised to change the Pacifist Constitution. He has majority. What is stopping him from scrapping Cold war era law?

Is it that easy to scrap constitution of a country ?

This is not just a pacifist but rather self defeatist constituition which Japan was forced to swallow while it was still under occupation .

Japan forfeited right to wage war forever by adopting the constituition which was based on Pastdam declaration ...

Many in Japan resent that ...but it's not easy .


You may find this one interesting


Japanese politics: Moment of reckoning | The Economist

The prime minister’s attempts to reform both the economy and the pacifist constitution are entering a critical phase
20140607_ASD001_0.jpg

SHINZO ABE, Japan’s most purposeful prime minister for many years, has two grand ambitions. One is to restore some vim to Japan’s long-stagnant economy. The other is to shed restraints imposed on the country by its post-war constitution. The Japanese public so far seems willing to accept the change involved in pursuing the first aim, but is less amenable to the second. If Mr Abe is not careful, he could find his own enthusiasm for constitutional change upsets his economic reforms.
On his return to power in 2012, his plan was to use the thumping majority his Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) wields with its coalition partner, New Komeito, to move towards rewriting Article 9 of the constitution, in which Japan renounces the use of war. He was soon obliged to retreat. Then a plan to alter the process by which the constitution may be changed also failed. Now a more modest attempt to reinterpret Article 9 to allow Japan to come to the defence of its allies, notably America, is running into formidable opposition, too.

Many in the LDP worry that the coalition could even break up over the question of whether Japan should have the right to help its allies in the event of attack. Last month a long-awaited report from a panel handpicked by Mr Abe recommended that Japan’s “self-defence forces” (SDF)—as the armed forces are known—should be allowed for the first time to offer limited logistical support to America during military combat, and to shoot down missiles heading for an ally’s territory. Even that was a retreat for Mr Abe. He had wanted Japan to allow the SDF to fight with allies in UN-authorised missions overseas. America strongly backs the limited changes as a way to strengthen the alliance with Japan.
Yet for New Komeito, an avowedly pacifist party, Mr Abe’s intentions already go too far. On May 29th Yoshio Urushibara, a senior New Komeito parliamentarian, voiced the possibility of leaving the coalition (and hence bringing down the government) rather than give in to Mr Abe’s wishes. The LDP was shocked.
New Komeito’s leadership is not the problem. The real blockage is Soka Gakkai, a pacifist Buddhist group that backs New Komeito and opposes Mr Abe’s plan. Little-known outside Japan yet claiming 9m members, the group is an extremely potent electoral machine. Its pacifist members, especially its 3m women, reliably elect hundreds of New Komeito politicians across the country in local and national elections. LDP politicians also rely on Soka Gakkai. Without it, according to an analysis by the Tokyo Foundation, a think-tank, Mr Abe’s party could lose around 100 of its present 294 seats in the lower house of parliament.
Broader public opinion, too, is still largely against Japan helping its allies militarily. A poll last month by Kyodo, a news agency, found that 48% of respondents opposed Japan exercising that right, against 39% who support Mr Abe’s initiative. For Japan’s constitution to be reinterpreted by successive administrations is dangerous, asserts Yumiko Kasanuki, a leader of Soka Gakkai’s women’s group. Rather, she says, Mr Abe should officially revise, not reinterpret, Article 9 by gaining proper democratic consent, meaning a near-impossible two-thirds majority in both houses of parliament. The unspoken threat is that her members will otherwise stop mobilising votes for New Komeito and LDP candidates. New Komeito is particularly worried that a backroom compromise with Mr Abe this year could wound it during next spring’s local elections.
One way out of the impasse, and the focus of much rumour, is for Mr Abe to call a snap election for the lower house of parliament before the spring of 2015. The mere threat of it heaps more pressure on New Komeito. Mr Abe’s popularity should mean a strong result for the LDP, perhaps lessening its reliance on Soka Gakkai, while opposition parties remain in disarray. That in turn could help New Komeito to persuade Soka Gakkai that the public backs Mr Abe’s security agenda, and that it should therefore support him, too.
The North Korea link
Mr Abe is also counting on a possible breakthrough in the tragic story of Japanese citizens kidnapped by North Korea in the 1970s and 1980s. On May 29th, in the first progress on this issue in many years, Japan and North Korea agreed a deal in which Japan will relax sanctions against the rogue regime in return for a North Korean reinvestigation of the abductions. The issue is an emotional one in Japan; the mere news of the deal is a political victory for Mr Abe, who first shot to prominence in the early 2000s by championing the abductees’ families. This week Japan said that Mr Abe may even visit Pyongyang.
Yet the bold gambit also carries risks. North Korea’s about-turn is chiefly aimed at extracting more aid and trade from Japan. It could also be trying to create tension between America and Japan, says Robert Dujarric, of Temple University in Tokyo. Mr Abe must weigh the diplomatic costs with the very real possibility that not a single abductee will return home; most are thought to have died in North Korea.
Meanwhile, his efforts on the economy are moving into their most important stage yet. The LDP last month published a much-anticipated list of reforms that could do much to revive the economy. The government is to unveil a new growth strategy later this month. Any political upheaval could affect what seems to be a real chance of implementing economic change. Mr Abe may soon be forced to decide what his true priority is.
 
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Yes it is, it even incresed now as it seems, since the earlier report estimated the unit cost at $90 millions per unit and now it's at $110 milion!!! And that for an aircraft that is only used in SAR roles, without any advanced tech or weapon capability at all. The point however is, that the government of India is trying to increase the relations to Japan and this might be considered as a door opener.
The "Civil use" is mainly a term to go around the Japanese expert laws and if at all would only meant that we can't use them with weapons or so and at least on paper in the civil SAR role. Personally the Kawasaki C-2 might had been a more useful choice for us, as a procurement and a door opener.



Modify it in what way? For armed use most likely no, for fire fighting most likely yes, since that would be a civil use too.

???????????????
 
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@Abingdonboy , @sandy_3126 , @he-man , @Sergi

Your comments, please !
@Indo-guy I've already given my answers to @sancho's comments:

$1.65-bn SAR aircraft deal likely to take off during Modi’s Japan visit | Page 2

The simple fact is regardless of how cheap the Be 200 is it is NOT the best machine for the task.



As for the political compulsions behind this deal, I think they are overplayed. It is more of a 2 birds one stone opportunity- the IN gets what it wants AND it is a watershed moment for Indo-Jap ties. Under Abe Japanese has been going all out to court India.
 
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The 'Export' will be in civilian form; it doesn't mean BEL cannot put up its IFF and encrypted communication systems with jamming tech inside it.

That's what we did with C-130 and C-17 when we had to sign the LSA agreement which we didn't with Lockheed Martin.

Japan says it cannot sell us its tech for now; doesn't say that we cannot modify it. :D

Also, the Navy plans to use these jets as SAR and special amphibious missions aircraft (probably MARCOs unit might get a couple of them).

How much firepower do you nee for an SAR aircraft?



Japan under Abe is different.

Take a look:

Japan-US Alliance: In danger of drifting apart?

They are strong friends but the difference of opinion is much more vocal this time.

Japan wants to focus on Asia. It is tired of focusing so much on west, that it forgets everyone around itself.


Correct. There is a new paradigm shift in our policy as well, we are now also focusing more on South Asia. In particular interest is to further our relations with India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka.

@Indo-guy I've already given my answers to @sancho's comments:

$1.65-bn SAR aircraft deal likely to take off during Modi’s Japan visit | Page 2

The simple fact is regardless of how cheap the Be 200 is it is NOT the best machine for the task.



As for the political compulsions behind this deal, I think they are overplayed. It is more of a 2 birds one stone opportunity- the IN gets what it wants AND it is a watershed moment for Indo-Jap ties. Under Abe Japanese has been going all out to court India.


We have been trying to build relations with not only Modi, but also Hasina in Bangladesh. As well, we have been trying to bolster our trade relations with Pakistan and helping them in their infrastructure projects, namely the subsidizing of their electrical sources. For us, there is much opportunity to build in South Asia.
 
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simply do not understand why we are pursuing this deal ....
as far as politico-strategic reasons are concerned ...when it came to MMRCA we did not give in to even Obama's charm offensive .

same argument was forwarded that time that India missed opportunity to forge closer ties by awarding MMRCA deal to USA .
we stuck to our guns and selected the best among all sheerly on technical basis and then opted for the lowest bidder
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Which was incredibly foolish in my opinion.
 
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US 2i vs Be-200

US 2i

General characteristics

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 560 km/h (302 knots, 348 mph)
  • Cruise speed: 480 km/h (259 knots, 298 mph)
  • Range: 4,700 km[5] (2,538 nmi, 2,919 mi)
  • Service ceiling: 7,195 m (23,606 ft)
  • Takeoff distance on ground at MTOW: 490 m (1,608 ft)
  • Landing distance on ground at MTOW: 1,500 m (4,921 ft)
  • Takeoff distance on water at Loaded weigh: 280m (919 ft)
  • Landing distance on water at Loaded weigh: 330m (1,083 ft)
Be-200

General characteristics




    • Crew: 2
    • Length: 32.0 m (105 ft 0 in)
    • Height: 8.9 m (29 ft 2 in)
    • Wing area: 117.4 m² (1,264 ft²)
    • Max Take Off Weight (Land): 41,000 kg (90,390 lb)
    • Max Take Off Weight (Water):37,900 kg (83,550 lb)
    • Max Capacity (Water or Retardant):12,000 kg (26,450 lb)
    • Max Capacity (Cargo): 7,500 kg (16,530 lb)
    • Max Capacity (Passengers): 44 (Be-200ES) 72 (Be-210)
Performance




    • Economy speed: 550 km/h (342 mph)
    • Landing speed: 200 km/h (124 mph)
    • Takeoff speed: 220 km/h (137 mph)
    • Minimum speed (Flaps 38°): 157 km/h (98 mph)
    • Range: 2,100 km (1,305 mi)
    • Ferry range (One Hour Reserve): 3,300 km (2,051 mi)
    • Rate of climb: 13 m/s (2,600 ft/min) (At Sea Level and MTOW — Flaps 20°)
    • Rate of climb: 17 m/s (3,350 ft/min) (At Sea Level and MTOW — Flaps 0°)
Avionics




    • ARIA 200-M integrated avionics system.
 
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We have been trying to build relations with not only Modi, but also Hasina in Bangladesh. As well, we have been trying to bolster our trade relations with Pakistan and helping them in their infrastructure projects, namely the subsidizing of their electrical sources. For us, there is much opportunity to build in South Asia.
True but you can't deny Abe has put special interest/focus on India and especially Modi. Probably due to the China factor.
 
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True but you can't deny Abe has put special interest/focus on India and especially Modi. Probably due to the China factor.

We need to see how the deal is being financed before we jump to any conclusions. Might be something there.
 
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True but you can't deny Abe has put special interest/focus on India and especially Modi. Probably due to the China factor.

India represents a largely untapped market, with a country with a population of 1.2 billion people, a growing technical industry, a vibrant economy, and again, a nation with such a large man power base, it may be a possible candidate for further Japanese investments to build manufacturing sites in. We have over 4,000 companies imbedded in China, whereas there are only 1,000+ Japanese companies invested in India. Once we are able to tackle the taxation issues, i see no reason why Japanese companies cannot open new project sites in India.

In addition, objectively, we also have sights on Bangladesh and Pakistan, both of whom have enjoyed a vibrant relationship with us through historical parameters. And both of them , Pakistan and Bangladesh, are candidates , also, of more investment projects. I would conjecture that this era is a time when Shinzo Abe not only reassess our constitutional standing on defense, but also on weapons trade, and a projection of Japanese interests in the world stage. For a while, our interests have largely remained in East Asia, the West and North & South America. This era will see a greater paradigm shift-- where Japan orients to South Asia.

The stability and growth of South Asia [Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh] , which also is a major route through which international shipping crosses, is critical to global security.
 
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We need to see how the deal is being financed before we jump to any conclusions. Might be something there.
Care to expand bro? $1.65BN isn't much to India. India doesn't need soft loans or aid.

India represents a largely untapped market, with a country with a population of 1.2 billion people, a growing technical industry, a vibrant economy, and again, a nation with such a large man power base, it may be a possible candidate for further Japanese investments to build manufacturing sites in. We have over 4,000 companies imbedded in China, whereas there are only 1,000+ Japanese companies invested in India. Once we are able to tackle the taxation issues, i see no reason why Japanese companies cannot open new project sites in India.

In addition, objectively, we also have sights on Bangladesh and Pakistan, both of whom have enjoyed a vibrant relationship with us through historical parameters. And both of them , Pakistan and Bangladesh, are candidates , also, of more investment projects. I would conjecture that this era is a time when Shinzo Abe not only reassess our constitutional standing on defense, but also on weapons trade, and a projection of Japanese interests in the world stage. For a while, our interests have largely remained in East Asia, the West and North & South America. This era will see a greater paradigm shift-- where Japan orients to South Asia.

The stability and growth of South Asia [Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh] , which also is a major route through which international shipping crosses, is critical to global security.
Sure, just one little anecdote- your president (Abe) follows only 3 people on twitter, one is his wife, the other the former mayro of Tokyo and the third? The new PM of India, Mr Modi.
 
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Care to expand bro? $1.65BN isn't much to India. India doesn't need soft loans or aid.


Sure, just one little anecdote- your president (Abe) follows only 3 people on twitter, one is his wife, the other the former mayro of Tokyo and the third? The new PM of India, Mr Modi.

lol, yes, i remember reading about that.

Incidentally, while Narendra Modi was Governor of Gujarat, he made a policy to encourage international investments in the state, he has a very vibrant, and good working relationship with Japan and Japanese.
 
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