Zulfiquar Class Frigate vs Ada Class Corvette

[Arsalan]

This sounds suspiciously like the Thai complaints about their four Jianghu's. It the last of the four F22Ps any better (since built in Pakistan)? I'm assuming your were referring to F22P, right?


Yeah, but personnel cost in e.g. UK are not the same as those in e.g. Pakistan. So, 'the long run' is different.

Yeah i am referring to F22p, about the boats PN is using
AND when i first heard about this my response was exactly the same, that yeah you are talking about the complaints of Thai Navy. However i was confirmed that we had similar issues with our boats, not exactly fire related but just a remark that the making quality was not good. I wonder if this view was formulated based on the incidents on the Thai boats. However was also confirmed that such problems were addressed in the last of the four ships and the initial three were also tweaked with to make things better.

 

[Danish saleem]

We should keep in our minds what is difference between frigates and Corvette.

Frigate always used for missions in Enemy Waters.
Corvette use for defending our own costs, and Waters from Frigates and Destroyers.

 

[-SINAN-]

@isoo some quality discussions going on here in your area of expertise.

 

[Arsalan]

We should keep in our minds what is difference between frigates and Corvette.

Frigate always used for missions in Enemy Waters.
Corvette use for defending our own costs, and Waters from Frigates and Destroyers.

There will be certain mission profiles that suits a frigate and not a corvette but not many which suite a corvette and not a frigate. What we require is better AAW capability, that is/must be the top priority when it comes to PN surface fleet. All the sophisticated systems, better maneuverability, more automation, reduced radar signature etc are important but are not top on priority list. More maneuverability wont help you much if you have nothing substantial to counter the aircraft attacking the boat with missiles. It is about priorities and we SHOULD get them straight. First we need some heavier frigates with better AAW, then come corvettes/frigates with stealth features and better ASW/AShW capabilities. These when operating with AAW frigates will form a much more effective task force. This should be the priority order. AND before any of that, any surface fleet procurement, the first priority is of submarines, ones that can provide limited 2nd strike capability as well in shape of LACM. For me it is like,

1. Submarines
2. AAW Frigates
3. ASW Aircraft/Helicopters
   
4. Fighter Aircraft (not necessarily Naval squadron, dedicated PAF squadron armed with AShM and AAM will do)
5. More efficient frigates/Corvettes
6. More subs
7. Then AAW Destroyers/Frigates

 

[Danish saleem]

There will be certain mission profiles that suits a frigate and not a corvette but not many which suite a corvette and not a frigate. What we require is better AAW capability, that is/must be the top priority when it comes to PN surface fleet. All the sophisticated systems, better maneuverability, more automation, reduced radar signature etc are important but are not top on priority list. More maneuverability wont help you much if you have nothing substantial to counter the aircraft attacking the boat with missiles. It is about priorities and we SHOULD get them straight. First we need some heavier frigates with better AAW, then come corvettes/frigates with stealth features and better ASW/AShW capabilities. These when operating with AAW frigates will form a much more effective task force. This should be the priority order. AND before any of that, any surface fleet procurement, the first priority is of submarines, ones that can provide limited 2nd strike capability as well in shape of LACM. For me it is like,

1. Submarines
2. AAW Frigates
3. ASW Aircraft/Helicopters
   
4. Fighter Aircraft (not necessarily Naval squadron, dedicated PAF squadron armed with AShM and AAM will do)
5. More efficient frigates/Corvettes
6. More subs
7. Then AAW Destroyers/Frigates

My question .

What we planning for tackling Mig's 29 MKI in near future?
My opinion Nothing. Just few JF-17's with ASW, cant acheive anything when enemy ships defended my Mig 29's.

 

[cabatli_53]

Yeah i am referring to F22p, about the boats PN is using
AND when i first heard about this my response was exactly the same, that yeah you are talking about the complaints of Thai Navy. However i was confirmed that we had similar issues with our boats, not exactly fire related but just a remark that the making quality was not good. I wonder if this view was formulated based on the incidents on the Thai boats. However was also confirmed that such problems were addressed in the last of the four ships and the initial three were also tweaked with to make things better.

It seems the cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan will enlarge cause of the reasons mentioned above.


SSM official Naval ship construction roadway

-Ada class corvette - Construction of Remaining 2 proceeding
-Istanbul Class Frigate - 4
-TF-2000 Class AAW frigate - 4
-Conceptual design of Milden domestic AIP submarine- Underway
-Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft Construction - 4 + 6
-Fast Patrol Boat Construction - 8
-600t class Coast Guard Vessel - 8


Most probably, The loan 400 million $ is about Istanbul class frigate project Pakistan requests. If Istanbul class to be constructed in Karachi, satisfy Pakistani Naval officers, I think Turkey and Pakistan will take this cooperation one step ahead for TF-2000 AAW frigate project as well because It seems that Pakistan have such an ambitious request in terms of threat perception and deterrence issues in own region.

TF-2000 AAW
-Around 8000t
-Length: 150m

Missile Payload:

-48 cell MK-41 launchers (48 x 4 ESSM missile carriage capacity)
-250km Ship to ship missile called Atmaca developed by Roketsan
-180km SM-2 Block-IV missile developed by Raytheon
-~1000km range Gezgin LACM developed by SAGE/Roketsan


Aprox. Cafrad Coverage

TF-2000 radar: CAFRAD developed by Aselsan.

5000 Domestic GaN modules x 4 = 20,000 GaN modules on 360 degree radar surface
GaN T/R Module producer: AB MicroNANO is an Aselsan institute

-1000km diameter Search and Tracking range
-900km diameter Friend-Foe Identification
-Hundreds of km electronic support/attack capability

 

[ANMDT]

@isoo some quality discussions going on here in your area of expertise.

Comparing Ada class and F22P doesnt seem logical to me, one of them is way bigger about %20 .
To make the comparison logical and fair, we may come to İstanbul Class
- Length 110m
-16 SSM (Allocated as desired, either 8 SSM +8 ASROC, 8SSM +8 Land Attack or any other combinations leads to a real multi role)
-16 VLS (for Quad packed ESSM or AA missile) Enough space for additional 16 VLS
- More place to store fuel (%20+) means extended range 6000 nm at 15 knots .
- Stamp & Stop installation is another key to boost , efficient for small targets.
x 325 million USD , almost double price of the F22P. (considering installed chinese systems, this might go down until 250 million, also the production phase effective on the price, 300 worker paid %50 less in Pakistan, would lead to saves about 10 million USD)
x Installed Western systems, doubts about installing, compability of other systems (ie engine could be 2+2 diesels for PN , different Radar, different CIWS ,VLS and so on)

- F22 seems like an outdated platform, doubts about RCS ,high operational costs ,more crew (almost double of Ada class, would be 50% more than İstanbul Class). Approximately cost 3 million USD per year just for payments of crew ignoring their expenses on duty or on idle.
- Most of the volume allocated for crew members.
- Cheap, 175 million USD high Cost/Performance.

I dont know about my senses if its patriotic,but i would desire to pay a little more and go for the better one. Even Ada vs F22P shows a huge difference in RCS, crew and installed systems.The roles are different, so i state again comparison is better in İstanbul Class vs F22P

 

[Blue Marlin]

Comparing Ada class and F22P doesnt seem logical to me, one of them is way bigger about %20 .
To make the comparison logical and fair, we may come to İstanbul Class
- Length 110m
-16 SSM (Allocated as desired, either 8 SSM +8 ASROC, 8SSM +8 Land Attack or any other combinations leads to a real multi role)
-16 VLS (for Quad packed ESSM or AA missile) Enough space for additional 16 VLS
- More place to store fuel (%20+) means extended range 6000 nm at 15 knots .
- Stamp & Stop installation is another key to boost , efficient for small targets.
x 325 million USD , almost double price of the F22P. (considering installed chinese systems, this might go down until 250 million, also the production phase effective on the price, 300 worker paid %50 less in Pakistan, would lead to saves about 10 million USD)
x Installed Western systems, doubts about installing, compability of other systems (ie engine could be 2+2 diesels for PN , different Radar, different CIWS ,VLS and so on)

- F22 seems like an outdated platform, doubts about RCS ,high operational costs ,more crew (almost double of Ada class, would be 50% more than İstanbul Class). Approximately cost 3 million USD per year just for payments of crew ignoring their expenses on duty or on idle.
- Most of the volume allocated for crew members.
- Cheap, 175 million USD high Cost/Performance.

I dont know about my senses if its patriotic,but i would desire to pay a little more and go for the better one. Even Ada vs F22P shows a huge difference in RCS, crew and installed systems.The roles are different, so i state again comparison is better in İstanbul Class vs F22P

any updates on the tf-2000?
have they began construction yet.?
any authentic pics/designs

 

[ANMDT]

any updates on the tf-2000?
have they began construction yet.?
any authentic pics/designs

Still in initial design phase, the concept has decided .
Keel will be laid in 2020 after İ class is launched.
The pictures have posted by @cabatli_53 i think there was even in this thread, they are mostly concept studies for the concept design phase.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Still in initial design phase, the concept has decided .
Keel will be laid in 2020 after İ class is launched.
The pictures have posted by @cabatli_53 i think there was even in this thread, they are mostly concept studies for the concept design phase.

soi guess the cafrad will be like the sampson radar but what will turkey have that will be on par with the s1850m radar or smart-l radar?

 

[Basel]

@Penguin ADA will be better option to hunt subs in Pakistani waters in high threat environment due to more stealth features, it can hide in fishing boats while F-22Ps can't do that, also A-Darter can be customized for use in FL-3000/RIM-166 type launcher, so ADA can have decent CIWS option, what people here are forgetting that it will be able to communicate with P-3 & Ereieye.

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin ADA will be better option to hunt subs in Pakistani waters in high threat environment due to more stealth features, it can hide in fishing boats while F-22Ps can't do that, also A-Darter can be customized for use in FL-3000/RIM-166 type launcher, so ADA can have decent CIWS option, what people here are forgetting that it will be able to communicate with P-3 & Ereieye.

That would be good use of those ships, yet. However, I don't see why on earth one would bother with 'customizing' A-Darter, for use with the Fl-3000N and/or the Mk 49 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS). What is wrong with RIM-116 (esp. the Block 0, block 1), or the TY-90 missile of the HQ-10? How would some 'yet to be developed' version of A-Darter be any better, esp. when compared to the Rim-116 Block 2?

People, please, RAM is the CIWS for Ada class. It is by no means a poor system.

 

[RAMPAGE]

People, please, RAM is the CIWS for Ada class. It is by no means a poor system.

Of course it is not. It is just that we want our military to avoid US hardware whenever possible.

 

[Basel]

That would be good use of those ships, yet. However, I don't see why on earth one would bother with 'customizing' A-Darter, for use with the Fl-3000N and/or the Mk 49 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS). What is wrong with RIM-116 (esp. the Block 0, block 1), or the TY-90 missile of the HQ-10? How would some 'yet to be developed' version of A-Darter be any better, esp. when compared to the Rim-116 Block 2?

People, please, RAM is the CIWS for Ada class. It is by no means a poor system.

PN might not want to use Chinese weapon systems on it due to integration issue, although it is possible but PN would prefer western system SAM/CIWS specially with LOAL capability (if possible).

 

[C130]

Ada seems better......both are around the same size but Ada has less crew 93 vs 170, meaning it's more automatized compared to Zulfiquar




Ada doesn't have a CIWS but it really doesn't need one when it has RIM-121


and with TF-100 sublass it will get a Mk-41 along with ESSM, that's huge compared to Zulfiquar