ZT China's latest F-80 air to air missiles

[Viper0011.]

I am not surprised at the typical American smearing campaign against China of claiming stealing? As if China has no aeronautical knowledge and can only steal?

You can't simply just steal a technology and applying on another plane unless its 100% identical to another. Is J-20 identical to J-31? I think a 3 years kid can also answer that....

Take a look at the bold paragraph above. That is EXACTLY what I said in my post. That you guys are stealing out tech, copying it and applying to your jets (the design of which, also comes by copying ).

But since you do not have the research and dev knowledge that we did when we spent hundreds of millions on R&D, your "copy" is still sub-par. Like is the case for DAS's real original range of over 500-600 miles, then Chinese copy of like 110KM.

China has aeronautical knowledge but its based on copied hardware such as the Israeli Lavi, Russian SU-27 and the now the JSF. Previously it was Mig-21 from 1960's. That's just facts speaking.

 

[Beast]

Take a look at the bold paragraph above. That is EXACTLY what I said in my post. That you guys are stealing out tech, copying it and applying to your jets (the design of which, also comes by copying ).

But since you do not have the research and dev knowledge that we did when we spent hundreds of millions on R&D, your "copy" is still sub-par. Like is the case for DAS's real original range of over 500-600 miles, then Chinese copy of like 110KM.

China has aeronautical knowledge but its based on copied hardware such as the Israeli Lavi, Russian SU-27 and the now the JSF. Previously it was Mig-21 from 1960's. That's just facts speaking.

You seems to have selective memory! You quote my sentence and yet you failed to comply with my sentence.
Let me ask you back again. Is J-20 a total copy of your darling F-22 and F-35? Maybe you have a 85 years old eyes that cannot differential a canard layout with conventional one?

You simply cant copy a design and think just cut and paste and the plane expected to fly? It needs extensive knowledge and research to co operate those features to make a plane. Only those without aviation knowledge will claim its simply a cut and paste job with no ressearch involved. I pity your bitterness over rise of China and decline of US. Make sure you live another 10 years enough to witness China claimed all number 1 spot from USA.

I dare to bet with you!

 

[Donatello]

The Chinese are yet to get this creative and "solve" anything intermediately complex in terms of defense technology, on their own, by themselves.
What you're referring to, is stolen tech from the JSF called the DAS (or its Chinese copy with a different name like EOTS).

The missile locking and subsequent release at a target behind or on far sides is called "over the shoulder lock", and yes, it does have all around coverage. But I'd be very surprised to find out if this stolen copy of DAS is even half way decent. The DAS reportedly (real range still classified) tracks a missile's afterburner from 600+ miles away. This here may be a 5th of that. The Chinese will be modifying these ranges while the USAF missiles will be starting to use LASERS instead of missiles!!!

I think you are confusing a forward looking seeker with one that is mated to another seeker but looking at a 180 half behind it.

Think of this Chinese seeker as a Disco ball. Instead of having one big IR sensor to acquire the image by rotating it really really fast in all the forward looking quadrants, you use smaller IR sensors placed around like a hexagon.....that way, as one sensor moves away sideways, another one comes in it's position, so you have multiple images that are then stitched together. With faster DSP and CMOS sensors, it is possible to acquire and sample the image really fast.

 

[Viper0011.]

I think you are confusing a forward looking seeker with one that is mated to another seeker but looking at a 180 half behind it.

Think of this Chinese seeker as a Disco ball. Instead of having one big IR sensor to acquire the image by rotating it really really fast in all the forward looking quadrants, you use smaller IR sensors placed around like a hexagon.....that way, as one sensor moves away sideways, another one comes in it's position, so you have multiple images that are then stitched together. With faster DSP and CMOS sensors, it is possible to acquire and sample the image really fast.

Yea.....that image capture, panoramic view and processing (image "stitching") is DAD aka, the Chinese EOTS or whatever they call it. Someone posted a video of the JSF program. Watch it and you'll this in more details.....and no, I am not confusing anything with anything. I can assure you of that

You seems to have selective memory! You quote my sentence and yet you failed to comply with my sentence.
Let me ask you back again. Is J-20 a total copy of your darling F-22 and F-35? Maybe you have a 85 years old eyes that cannot differential a canard layout with conventional one?

Make sure you live another 10 years enough to witness China claimed all number 1 spot from USA. !

1) No one would copy stuff and put it in the same structure. But your J-31 is similar to the -22. The J-20 is going to be a long range strike platform, and thus, the 60+ feet size!!! Copying someone's tech doesn't mean you'll apply it in the same way. You'll change the structure to what fits your needs but the tech will be what you copied from us. Simple is that.

2) The whole "taking number 1 spot from the US", well, if the US had over 1 billion people, I'd LOVE to see how you could even be number 1 for the next 40 years. The size of the population doesn't mean that you can provide the quality of life and all, compared to what we get in the US. There is a reason every other wealthy Chinese has invested into the US and have homes and green cards, the number is in millions, meaning

On the contrary, I'd love to see just 50,000 Americans (not Chinese immigrant Americans, but people from the US looking for a better life in China), who've gotten Chinese residency and have homes in China

3) Whether you become the largest economy and all....you'll still be about a decade behind the US. Your individual per capita income and the budget simply won't be enough to care for your 1.3 billion people (in the next few years) and provide the quality that the Americans or a few other nations enjoy. It's not a bad thing,it's just that you guys are growing and it takes decades to come to the level with such a large population.

Once the development near saturates, at that time, you'll top supportive factor, that is your population, would start to become your bottle-neck as you'd have to provide for 1.3 billion people, their education, schools, health, houses, welfare and all. But the US is already a developed country and we won't have those overheads as the system has been running for decades. Meaning we can continue to invest more and more into new things.

I hope you live long enough to see China can match HALF the size of the US aircraft carriers battle groups. That is about 40 years away for the Chinese. By the time you get there, we'd probably be retiring all the AC's and using Hypersonic planes from space. Around that time, you might become number 2 as India might be number 1 to reality.

I don't like to do these comparisons showing someone superior and someone not so superior. But with the Chinese and the Indian members on here, there is a LOT of fake soup-o-powa status, and new money type of arrogant posts you see. And majority of them have no logic or comparative analysis. Just jingoistic stuff.

Be humble and factual and we can have a nicer debate.

 

[Akasa]

Its pretty obvious that you guys don't really know what copy rights is. And I am not surprised. Every technology used in the -35 is under a copyright and a patent!!! You stole the ENTIRE design through hacking into our systems. And you are going to tell me you stole "engineering concepts"? Tell me one engineering book that has DAS in it!!!

This wasn't an engineering concept, this was a patent design worth hundreds of millions of research, aka, advanced creativity, something that Chinese conveniently ignores and violates all international laws for.

You're going to base your entire allegation of espionage on a few similarities in operation and perhaps aesthetics? Sorry buddy, but throwing such accusations at any system that happens to exhibit the slightest form-follows-function only serves to undermine whatever credibility that accusation had in the first place.

As for what the Chinese stole in their hacking attempts, nobody can ascertain what and how much data they took so let's leave it at that.

 

[Viper0011.]

You're going to base your entire allegation of espionage on a few similarities in operation and perhaps aesthetics?

As for what the Chinese stole in their hacking attempts, nobody can ascertain what and how much data they took so let's leave it at that.

"Operational similarities and aesthetics".....??? LOL
When a hacking attempt happens, you might compromise one or two systems with the data, but there are other systems that monitor what's happening. Those systems might not stop the hacking attempt, but they LOG all activity. There are no allegations. You've pissed of Russians by copying their stuff, then got stuff from Israel, then Phalcon designs for AWACS, then more Russian designs for Radars were purchased and of course the Americans for 5th generation.

Google it instead of acting like an innocent Chinese civilian. Both you and the Indians act like it when someone calls you out. As if you guys have never done anything or stole anything.

@C130 , @gambit : any input you can provide on the subject of copying US tech, specially the JSF related stuff? Apparently, the Chinese folks here think these are mere allegations based on "some operational similarities and aesthetic"

 

[Akasa]

"Operational similarities and aesthetics".....??? LOL
When a hacking attempt happens, you might compromise one or two systems with the data, but there are other systems that monitor what's happening. Those systems might not stop the hacking attempt, but they LOG all activity. There are no allegations. You've pissed of Russians by copying their stuff, then got stuff from Israel, then Phalcon designs for AWACS, then more Russian designs for Radars were purchased and of course the Americans for 5th generation.

Previous accusations of Chinese espionage is not evidence that this particular system, the EODAS, was developed in the same manner. Where did you get the inkling that the Chinese "stole" the designs of Russian avionics and the Phalcon anyways?

Until there is further evidence, from the developers of the EODAS themselves or otherwise, that the Chinese had indeed obtained blueprints for the system, aesthetics and the phenomenon of form follows function all that are supporting your argument.

 

[Oldman1]

bs. it probably work in combination with software and other tracking systems.. no IRST at that size is that powerful

Seems to me that it is that powerful. Combination of software and other tracking systems don't work unless you actually see or detected it. Can't track what you can't see first.

 

[MastanKhan]

VP Joe Biden and the President both were correct when they made open statements that the Chinese don't have any creativity. Its just cop, paste and mass produce.

Hi,

Well---that also takes a lots of creativity just to manufacture something by reverse engineering it. You have to think like the designer and figure out why was it designed the way it was to do what.

We know someone---who with all the designs and blue prints still could not overcome the hurdles at all.

 

[qwerrty]

Seems to me that it is that powerful. Combination of software and other tracking systems don't work unless you actually see or detected it. Can't track what you can't see first.

what's so special about tracking giant falcon 9 rocket launch? you can see it from bazzilion miles away even with naked eyes without any special sensor. small fighter jets and AAMs don't generate that much heat or long huge hot smoke trail.. lol

here's pics of missile tests from hundreds of miles away taken by supa consumer cell phone cameras

 

[MastanKhan]

You can't simply just steal a technology and applying on another plane unless its 100% identical to another. Is J-20 identical to J-31? I think a 3 years kid can also answer that...

US has slowly decline in all field and the gap between China and USA is closing everyday. I can understand the frustration typical American display has when they slowly witness the errosion of their technology edge and wealth of USA.

Sir,

You are in error---yes you can steal technology and you can also apply it and make your adjustments to your abilities and capabilities----and it does not have to be 100 % identical---it just has to meet those certain parameters that are critical for it to work for you.

Think about the decline of U S at your own peril----those who have---have paid heavy price----. Never ever underestimate the abilities of the united states----.

The Chinese are catching up because it is the function of time---as time is a great equalizer of things----.

 

[Beast]

Sir,

You are in error---yes you can steal technology and you can also apply it and make your adjustments to your abilities and capabilities----and it does not have to be 100 % identical---it just has to meet those certain parameters that are critical for it to work for you.

Think about the decline of U S at your own peril----those who have---have paid heavy price----. Never ever underestimate the abilities of the united states----.

The Chinese are catching up because it is the function of time---as time is a great equalizer of things----.

Every arrogant great power will fall. Great Britain and Roman empire were not spared either. US imperial view and attitude will be its downfall.

 

[MastanKhan]

Every arrogant great power will fall. Great Britain and Roman empire were not spared either. US imperial view and attitude will be its downfall.

Hi,

We all know that----the fox has been running beside the camel for eons now---waiting for his lip to fall down----.

 

[gambit]

"Operational similarities and aesthetics".....??? LOL
When a hacking attempt happens, you might compromise one or two systems with the data, but there are other systems that monitor what's happening. Those systems might not stop the hacking attempt, but they LOG all activity. There are no allegations. You've pissed of Russians by copying their stuff, then got stuff from Israel, then Phalcon designs for AWACS, then more Russian designs for Radars were purchased and of course the Americans for 5th generation.

Google it instead of acting like an innocent Chinese civilian. Both you and the Indians act like it when someone calls you out. As if you guys have never done anything or stole anything.

@C130 , @gambit : any input you can provide on the subject of copying US tech, specially the JSF related stuff? Apparently, the Chinese folks here think these are mere allegations based on "some operational similarities and aesthetic"

The Chinese members here needs to minimize the impact of any Chinese gain in technical espionage against the US. They minimize that impact using grossly simplistic explanation of 'copy' by demanding that unless the Chinese version is an exact match, there was no copying. Anybody whoever spent even one yr in R/D and/or manufacturing knows that argument/defense is pure bunk.

DAS operates on an engineering principal, not a patented design. I'm not sure how the Chinese would be able to "copy" an idea that any aeronautical engineer worth his salt would concoct when challenged with the same set of circumstances and restrictions in regards to sensor configuration.

Distributed Aperture System (DAS) is both a philosophical concept of sensor integration and a patented design.

Patent US5317394 - Distributed aperture imaging and tracking system - Google Patents

An idea is no good unless there are means and ways to execute it, so while you cannot copy an idea, you can certainly copy its means and ways of execution. If the original execution have two sensors and you installed a third, while you maybe granted a separated patent, the fact that you had to use the original machine's mechanical layout in order to make your version work, it means you effectively copied the whole thing.

You can argue that copying is a grey area, but while that argument may have merit, insisting that to be a true copy, everything has to be an exact one-for-one match is insulting to millions of engineers, scientists, and inventors everywhere and throughout the ages.

 

[Akasa]

Distributed Aperture System (DAS) is both a philosophical concept of sensor integration and a patented design.

Patent US5317394 - Distributed aperture imaging and tracking system - Google Patents

An idea is no good unless there are means and ways to execute it, so while you cannot copy an idea, you can certainly copy its means and ways of execution. If the original execution have two sensors and you installed a third, while you maybe granted a separated patent, the fact that you had to use the original machine's mechanical layout in order to make your version work, it means you effectively copied the whole thing.

You can argue that copying is a grey area, but while that argument may have merit, insisting that to be a true copy, everything has to be an exact one-for-one match is insulting to millions of engineers, scientists, and inventors everywhere and throughout the ages.

I've no doubt that their engineers took a darn close look at whatever information regarding the EODAS they could get their hands on (which may or may not include stolen data), but the fact of the matter is that nobody knows which aspect of the F-35's blueprints they stolen, how much was compromised, and whether the EODAS was part of it at all.

Granted, there is indeed a possibility that their new sensor indeed has stolen components, given the aesthetic similarities between the two. Nonetheless, until further evidence comes into view, the accusation of "reverse engineering" in this case will remain as such: an accusation.