Featured Zaheer Ahmad Babar appointed new Chief of Pakistan Air Force

[S.Y.A]

So at time of intrusion on 26 by IAF it was almost impossible to shoot down any plane without any reason as they turned around without engaging PAF.

The real case was, even they released their payloads, do we have some sort of technology that we can see the bombs fly in our airspace and can verify that those bombs were fired by IAF jets.

if we dont have the capability to detect released payload, then that is very sad indeed, and our security and the PAF's ability to keep us secure is very much in question.

and if we do, then the planes should have been shot down, whether they were in our airspace or not, it was an act of war and aggression.

 

[wasileo80]

Dear, i get your point.....i also understand that IAF jets were in our airspace for a very short time....my point is that the fact that they crossed into our territory and bombing would have been a good reason for us to after them and down them, even if their debris would have fallen inside IOJK.

Exactly Sir that is my point that PAF didnt knew at that time that they fired their stand off weapons and it revealed later on, so at that time PAF CAPs and in air defence command didnt have a true pic of what was IAF formation's objectives. Secondly, they were already turned back to IoJK and when our CAPs reached in engagement zone of our BVR missiles, they were already out of our air space. And if PAF wanted to shoot them down, then PAF needed to follow them further as BVR AAM range in chase mod is less then the head on engagement mode. Then it will be definite that their Jets will fell deep into IoK if they got hit. In that manner how PAF can prove that they intruded our Air Space as they can easily twist the story that PAF was aggresive and they violated their air space and shoot their jets down for no reason so they will have a excuse to declared a war against Pakistan and the whole world will see Pakistan as aggressor just like Kargil war.

The example which you have quoted from 2008....that is a case of locking on enemy jets while remaining in own airspace..that is something normal which happens today as well....however, in 2019 case, IAF actually crossed into our airspace....which is entirely different....bombing or no bombing....but their crossing into our airspace is good enough reason for anyone to shoot them down...

If this practice wil be in place ever then every military plane have to be shoot down on name of air space violation, and God Forbids many Atlantique incidents will take place as our enemy have no moral stand and they will not hesitate to shoot down any unarmed military plane for just portraying a air space violation even they can shoot down a civilian plane in name of spying..

 

[The Eagle]

The conflict of yay or nay to shoot down intruding air crafts could have occurred due to peace time Vs war time SOPs. Both the parties in argument of shooting down on the spot versus following the intrusion/peace time SOP are correct. However, since we are not the force to wait and respond after something happens; the former argument wins being offensive defensive. I believe that a lot has been changed since then.

 

[PanzerKiel]

If this practice wil be in place ever then every military plane have to be shoot down on name of air space violation, and God Forbids many Atlantique incidents will take place as our enemy have no moral stand and they will not hesitate to shoot down any unarmed military plane for just portraing a air space violation even they can shoot down a civilian plane in name of spying..

Dear, very strict procedures are already in place to avoid such an event....there is a standard buffer zone of X kms on both sides of the border which no airforce jet is supposed to EVEN APPROACH....thats how both sides avoid such shoot downs.

 

[wasileo80]

if we dont have the capability to detect released payload, then that is very sad indeed, and our security and the PAF's ability to keep us secure is very much in question.

and if we do, then the planes should have been shot down, whether they were in our airspace or not, it was an act of war and aggression.

Dear how can you track a bomb in air? By using ground radars you can only portray by enemy formation's course, number of jets, the formation in which they fly like are they fly in battle formation are things which allow our air defence controllers to scramble the CAPs. Yes modern AWACS can track jets and even they can classifies the information of weapons loaded on that jet but i dont know at time of intrusion on 26th Feb, our Erieye was in the air or not?

 

[wasileo80]

Moreover, whenever enemy aircraft take a direct bearing towards our area, our CAPs are vectored in such a manner that they are able to immediately engage enemy aircraft in case they do something hostile....which includes firing on CAPs themselves, bombing or even crossing into our airspace...all these things are serious enough.

Yes sir PAF CAPs are vectored in such a manner that they mean to engage them but only engage them and issue warning to return to their air space and missile firing or fight takes place once they refuse to obey the warning or they fire upon.. so you cannot shoot them down even they violated air space and you caught them without warning. So how can on 26 PAF caps can shoot down the intruders even they didnt meet up and IAF already leave the area before even PAF CAP reached at desired point?

There are big if and buts in this whole incident.

 

[arjunk]

Dear how can you track a bomb in air? By using ground radars you can only portray by their enemy formation's course, number of jets, the formation in which they fly like are they fly in battle formation are things which allow our air defence controllers to scramble the CAPs. Yes modern AWACS can track jets and even they can classified the information of weapons loaded on that jet but i dont know at time of intrusion on 26th Feb, our Erieye was in the air or not?

Tracking individual air dropped payloads and identifying what type they are is extremely difficult if not impossilbe. I don't even think the USAF or PLAAF do this. It also seems impractical because such weapons will launch in large numbers and reach their targets in seconds (except for long range SOWs). There might be something in the classified domain which I am not aware of though.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Congratulations, Chief.

 

[PanzerKiel]

There are big if and buts in this whole incident.

Dear, there are no ifs and buts.....its just that not all the info has been released in the public domain. Otherwise, the relevant people know what and why something happened.

 

[wasileo80]

Tracking individual air dropped payloads and identifying what type they are is extremely difficult if not impossilbe. I don't even think the USAF or PLAAF do this. It also seems impractical because such weapons will launch in large numbers and reach their targets in seconds (except for long range SOWs). There might be something in the classified domain which I am not aware of though.

Not sure about air drop, I said the modern AWACS can track weapons hanged on aircraft, Not the released weapon but in some cases long range SOW can be tracked as they were bigger in size as compare to small diameter bombs or short range SOW.

 

[The Eagle]

If this practice wil be in place ever then every military plane have to be shoot down on name of air space violation, and God Forbids many Atlantique incidents will take place as our enemy have no moral stand and they will not hesitate to shoot down any unarmed military plane for just portraying a air space violation even they can shoot down a civilian plane in name of spying..

What kind of an Air Force deserves to be called professional if it fails to recognize between a civilian aircraft, a spy plane or enemy's fighter jet? That is not the question at all.

The argument remains that the planes intruded on that day, shouldn't have went back in complete package. There comes the only point to consider before shooting that whether those jets really crossed LoC and were well within zone/shooting SoP or they were on other side of LoC providing very short window to shoot & take them down. Whether an enemy air craft comes close to LoC/Border, crossed it or merely played any hide & seek; there are rules with clear instructions to respond accordingly. What happened on that day, is not available for public to discuss and all we have is the idea as how SoPs are in place to respond accordingly. Only officials involved & concerned professionals will know the real thing.

 

[wasileo80]

Dear, there are no ifs and buts.....its just that not all the info has been released in the public domain. Otherwise, the relevant people know what and why something happened.

Agreed!

What kind of an Air Force deserves to be called professional if it fails to recognize between a civilian aircraft, a spy plane or enemy's fighter jet? That is not the question at all.

Atlantique incident is here to show professionalism of our neighbour Air Force.

 

[The Eagle]

Dear, there are no ifs and buts.....its just that not all the info has been released in the public domain. Otherwise, the relevant people know what and why something happened.

A brain worm will always annoy with the question as whether it was delayed relay of command or the SOP not followed by the concern in command on that day.

Atlantique incident is here to show professionalism of our neighbour Air Force.

Given their standard till last show down; their is nothing to call it professional about them. However, they are gearing up and their 3 guardians are teaching & arming them 24/7.

 

[Trailer23]

[...bus Pakistani awaam kabhe khush na hoon!]

Can't we just congratulate and wish the new ACM (Zaheer Ahmad Babar] the best and thank the outgoing ACM for the service he gave to the Air Force and nation.

No..., [naey bandey may nuks nikalna zaroori hai]. Just 'cause he didn't have a Poster Boy image or that people used his image as a DP on Social Media, does not make him unsuitable for the position.

The man has been serving the PAF for decades! If he's kept a low profile in the public domain could very well mean that he's been lurking in the shadows just waiting for the right opportunity - and now he's got it.

I honestly don't know why people were hoping for others as if they were their chacha was in line to be the next ACM.

Its over and done with - lets move on.

 

[PanzerKiel]

he's been lurking in the shadows just waiting for the right opportunity

...like he takes a bath with radar-absorbant paint, has an RCS of <1 mm, walks using nap-of-the-earth tactics.....

anywayz, i agree with you.