Yom Kippur War, Egypts Revenge, Israel's War 1973

[Kasrkin]

Niaz I'm not disrespecting your opinion. I'm not even saying its wrong. All I'm saying is that its not my opinion which is understandable. We all have different standards and references according to which we make our stands. So no worries there…

On the other hand, you may argue that Egypt was successful or undefeated in their war aims because they got their Sinai back but then I’d say the Egyptians already had Sinai before 1948 and 1967. You see 1967 was a crushing humiliation for all the Arabs states involved, and the Egyptians were not able to undo any of that in 1973. They barely scratched the surface of that by crossing the canal (the significance of which is not lost upon me) but then blew even that by deploying their armored reserves irresponsibly, losing not only a major portion of the east side of the canal again but losing further considerable territory in their side of the canal, essentially losing the Third Army by giving the enemy the capacity to destroy (more like massacre) them at their leisure while the Second Army was reduced to strategic insignificance also thanks to the crude and unadoptable strategic pre-planning which was undone by Sadat himself because he got intoxicated by his own success. The Egyptian situation was dreadful, they obviously lost many more men than the Israelis, but the Israelis could have further massacred tens of thousands more Egyptian soldiers from the Third Army and rear echelon forces of the first completely exposed to their unstoppable advance. If the war was taken to its logical conclusion then it is likely that the Egyptians might not have recovered for decades at best or at worst a Palestinian like annexation of Egyptian territories would have resulted. That’s not even talking about how the Syrians performed. Wars are never ‘win-win’ situations no matter how much we choose to look at them as such. It would be unfair to suggest that Israel didn’t win.

The Arabs have wanted to destroy Israel from the start, and we’re not here to discuss the moral justifications (or lack of) in regards to the matter. All I’m saying is that Israeli military performance and ability deterred that inclination against overwhelming odds. Given the fact that Egypt was stronger economically, demographically and militarily (on paper), success cannot be attributed to them for mere survival (even that was in doubt in 1973). The promises of ‘liberating Palestine’ by the Arabs can still apply today, if the Arabs claimed they would destroy a ‘great evil’ for decades then no ground realities in regards to that argument have changed. So now either they can say that they were wrong then, or that they’re wrong now. Both ways it reveals a contemptuous duplicity in our brethren, worse because it is a duplicity induced from defeat at the hands of a proclaimed ‘enemy’. If I were Israeli I would attribute the return of Sinai not to compulsion or Arab performance but to my own good graces and good nature (and not without good justification). Egypt was fortunate in that US-USSR relations were undergoing détente and the Americans instead of reveling an ally’s clear victory against Soviet clients, worked hard to induce peace in the region (heavily pressuring Israel to that effect) in the hopes of avoiding diplomatic and military confrontation with the Soviet Union.

So that was my take on this aspect of Arab history, even if you don’t agree sir I hope that you understand my views now and reasons behind them at the very least.

 

[sadiqams]

Egypt's revenge!!??

I would hardly call the Yom Kippu War to be Egypt's revenge. In spite of having the element of surprise on their side the Egyptians and the Syrians where both beaten back. Israel's situation was one that could readily bring strong nations to their knees. Yet, within days, it had regained its footing and in less than two weeks it was threatening both enemy capitals, an achievement having few historical parallels.

The Egyptian 'Third Army' was totally trapped by the Israelis and saved from inhalation by the Americans. The Syrians where bet back from the 'Golan Heights', which remained under Israeli control. Jordan didn't have the guts to enter the war. So the Arab armies had nothing to show again on the ground, in spite of having all the initial advantage.

I would hardly call such an achievement any revenge my friend.

Egpyt did not want to totally defeat isreal but to bring it to the negotiating table in order to get back its territory as isreal was refusing to talk to egypt even under american pressure. from this perspective Egpyt acheived its objectives and diplomatic success of sorts. Syria on the other hand was a loser as its missed its chance to negotiated at the same time as Egypt with Ireal.. I am sure had it done so it might have got back the Golan heights. Syria was misled by Egpyt into entering the war by not declaring its true objectives which was originally just hold onto some territory and then negotiate but Syria thought it was total war and did not read the signs of Egpyts betrayal until it was too late.

 

[le_souriceau]

I believe that Egypt and other arabian allies no chance to win any war against Israel - either alone or together. Brave, but poorly trained arabian soldiers under command of incompetent generals, could not do anything, just burn in soviet-made tanks.

And if the USSR did not "cover" its defeated arab friends on the diplomatic front, Israel would be much larger than today...

 

[niaz]

I believe that Egypt and other arabian allies no chance to win any war against Israel - either alone or together. Brave, but poorly trained arabian soldiers under command of incompetent generals, could not do anything, just burn in soviet-made tanks.

And if the USSR did not "cover" its defeated arab friends on the diplomatic front, Israel would be much larger than today...

With due respect to your opinion, methinks that your criticism of the Arab performance in 1973 is unduly harsh and not fully justified. I am copying an article from the Jewish virtual library for your benefit. These words are written by the enemy and show astute strategy and careful planning on the part of Anwar Sadat with the objective of regaining Egyptian lands lost in the 1967 disaster. Would you still call Arabs as poorly trained with incompetent generals?

USA was more than 100% behind Israel, why shouldn’t USSR diplomatically support Egypt? The decision is yours.

A Country Study of Egypt:
The October 1973 War
________________________________________
On February 4, 1971, Sadat announced a new peace initiative that contained a significant concession: he was willing to accept an interim agreement with Israel in return for a partial Israeli withdrawal from Sinai. A timetable would then be set for Israel's withdrawal from the rest of the occupied territories in accordance with UN Resolution 242. Egypt would reopen the canal, restore diplomatic relations with the United States, which had been broken after the June 1967 War, and sign a peace agreement with Israel through Jarring. Sadat's initiative fell on deaf ears in Tel Aviv and in Washington, which was not disposed to assisting the Soviet Union's major client in the region. Disillusioned by Israel's failure to respond to his initiative, Sadat rejected the Rogers Plan and the cease-fire.
In May 1972, President Nixon met Soviet president Leonid Brezhnev, and Sadat was convinced that the two superpowers would try to prevent a new war in the Middle East and that a position of stalemate--no peace, no war--had been reached. For Sadat this position was intolerable. The June 1967 War had been a humiliating defeat for the Arabs. Without a military victory, any Arab leader who agreed to negotiate directly with Israel would do so from a position of extreme weakness. At the same time, the United States and the Soviet Union were urging restraint and caution. However, the United States refused to put pressure on Israel to make concessions, and the Soviet Union, which had broken off diplomatic relations with Israel as a result of the June 1967 War, had no influence over Israel. Internally, the Egyptian economy was being steadily drained by the confrontation with Israel. Economic problems were becoming more serious because of the tremendous amount of resources directed toward building up the military since the June 1967 War, and it was clear that Sadat would have to demonstrate some results from this policy. In the last half of 1972, there were large-scale student riots, and some journalists came out publicly in support of the students. Thus, Sadat felt under increasing pressure to go to war against Israel as the only way to regain the lost territories.
In retrospect, there were indications that Egypt was preparing for war. On July 17, 1972, Sadat expelled the 15,000 Soviet advisers from Egypt. Sadat later explained that the expulsion freed him to pursue his preparations for war. On December 28, 1972, Sadat created "permanent war committees." On March 26, 1973, Sadat assumed the additional title of prime minister and formed a new government designed to continue preparations for a confrontation with Israel.
Then on October 6, 1973, Egyptian forces launched a successful surprise attack across the Suez Canal. The Syrians carried out an attack on Israel at the same time. For the Arabs, it was the fasting month of Ramadan, and for Israel it was Yom Kippur. The crossing of the canal, an astounding feat of technology and military acumen, took only four hours to complete. The crossing was code-named Operation Badr after the first victory of the Prophet Muhammad, which culminated in his entry into Mecca in 630.
On October 17 the Arab oil producers announced a program of reprisals against the Western backers of Israel: a 5 percent cutback in output, followed by further such reductions every month until Israel had withdrawn from all the occupied territories and the rights of the Palestinians had been restored. The next day, President Nixon formally asked Congress for US$2.2 billion in emergency funds to finance the massive airlift of arms to Israel that was already under way. The following day, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia decreed an immediate 10 percent cutback in Saudi oil and, five days after that, the complete suspension of all shipments to the United States.
Israel was shocked and unprepared for the war. After the initial confusion and near panic in Israel followed by the infusion of United States weaponry, Israel was able to counterattack and succeeded in crossing to the west bank of the canal and surrounding the Egyptian Third Army. With the Third Army surrounded, Sadat appealed to the Soviet Union for help. Soviet prime minister Alexei Kosygin believed he had obtained the American acceptance of a cease-fire through Henry Kissinger, United States secretary of state. On October 22, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 338, calling for a cease-fire by all parties within twelve hours in the positions they occupied. Egypt accepted the cease-fire, but Israel, alleging Egyptian violations of the cease-fire, completed the encirclement of the Third Army to the east of the canal. By nightfall on October 23, the road to Suez, the Third Army's only supply line, was in Israeli hands, cutting off two divisions and 45,000 men.
The Soviet Union was furious, believing it had been double-crossed by the United States. On October 24, the Soviet ambassador handed Kissinger a note from Brezhnev threatening that if the United States was not prepared to join in sending forces to impose the cease-fire, the Soviet Union would act alone. The United States took the threat very seriously and responded by ordering a grade-three nuclear alert, the first of its kind since President John F. Kennedy's order during the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. The threat came to naught, however, because a UN emergency force arrived in the battle zone to police the ceasefire.
Meanwhile, Syria felt betrayed by Egypt because Sadat did not inform his ally of his decision to accept the cease-fire. Two days after Sadat, President Hafiz al Assad of Syria accepted the cease-fire as well.
Neither side had won a clear-cut victory, but for the Egyptians, it was a victory nonetheless. The Arabs had taken the initiative in attacking the Israelis and had shown that Israel was not invincible. The stinging defeats of 1948, 1956, and 1967 seemed to be avenged.
The Israelis, however, paid a heavy price for merely holding their attackers to an inconclusive draw. In three weeks, they lost 2,523 personnel, two and a half times as many, proportionally speaking, as the United States lost in the ten years of the Vietnam war. The war had a devastating effect on Israel's economy and was followed by savage austerity measures and drastically reduced living standards. For the first time, Israelis witnessed the humiliating spectacle of Israeli prisoners, heads bowed, paraded on Arab television. Also, for the first time captured Israeli hardware was exhibited in Cairo.
In Egypt the casualties included about 8,000 killed. The effect of the war on the morale of the Egyptian population, however, was immense. Sadat's prestige grew tremendously. The war, along with the political moves Sadat had made previously, meant that he was totally in control and able to implement the programs he wanted. He was the hero of the day.
Negotiations toward a permanent cease-fire began in December 1973. In January 1974, Kissinger began his shuttle diplomacy between Egypt and Israel. On January 18, the first disengagement agreement was signed separately by Sadat and Golda Meir. A second disengagement agreement was signed on September 1, 1975. The agreement provided for a partial Israeli withdrawal in Sinai and limited the number of troops and kinds of weapons Egypt could have on the eastern side of the canal. Israel agreed to withdraw from the Abu Rudays oil fields in western Sinai, which produced small but important revenue for Egypt. Egypt also agreed not to use force to achieve its aims, a concession that in effect made Egypt a nonbelligerent in the Arab-Israeli conflict. As the price for its agreement, Israel extracted important concessions from the United States. Kissinger's secret promises to Israel included meeting Israel's military needs in any emergency, preserving Israel's arms superiority by providing the most advanced and sophisticated weaponry, and pledging not to recognize or to negotiate with the PLO.
On June 5, 1975, the Suez Canal was reopened. This was a great moment for Sadat, not only politically but economically, because the canal provided Egypt with considerable revenues.
Data as of December 1990
________________________________________
Source: Library of Congress

 

[le_souriceau]

Sorry if I was hursh and thanks for material.

I am not particularly expert in the issue and open for discussion. Lets look at the possible causes of arabian failure.

Poor weapons? No, the Arabs were armed not worse than israelians. In some types of weapons, even better.

A small number? No, the Arabs, in general, have always had numerical superiority.

Bad initial possitions? No, Israel was surrounded by arabs on all sides. What could be better?

Consequently, in head comes only two reasons for failure: weak command and/or not well (in mass) trained/motivated soldiers.

Or I miss something?

Another fact is not in favor of the arab armies: vietnamese, whom the Soviet Union supplied much less weapons , were able to defeat the americans. A United States far more dangerous adversary than Israel.

In this there is nothing at all offensive. All the armies lose sometimes. For example the russian army has received a good bashing in 1st War in Chechnya. And it was deserved, very sad bloody lesson. And what? This is not a reason to distort the truth. Moreover, it should be open. For death of the fallen brought not lie, but a lesson.

 

[A1Kaid]

 

[Egitto]

Is there anyone still think that Israel won the war?!
I will reply to every word here with sources, specially western sources.

 

[Egitto]

Anyway, Thanx Durran3, Nice video!

 

[Egitto]

First of all, the world say that it's the "Yom Kippur War" the holiest day in the jewish calender for more than 5 million jews.
Well, It's also the "Ramadan War" the holiest month for more than 1.5 billion muslims, when Egyptians fought while there were fasting.
So why did the world call it "Yom Kippur" and they didn't call it "Ramadan"?
The answer is that the massive zionist propaganda machine is much more strong than the Arab media.

 

[Egitto]

Egypt's revenge!!??
I would hardly call the Yom Kippu War to be Egypt's revenge.

I would hardly call such an achievement any revenge my friend.

I think that it was an attempt at revenge...

It will not be correct to call it revenge.

Yes, It was Egypt's revenge, just take alook in the map Sinai now is ours.

In spite of having the element of surprise on their side.

According to the new information released about Yom Kippur War, there was no surprise, they knew in advance that Egypt would attack, King Hussein of Jordan visited Israel before the war, and told Golda Meir about the Egyptian assault on 6th of October, there are a lot of sources for this statement including the chief of IDF military intelligence "Eli Zeira", so there was no surprise, it's just a zionist propaganda to excuse their humiliating defeat.

the Egyptians and the Syrians where both beaten back.

Egypt was never beaten back during the war, the war ended and Egypt still hold eastern bank of Suez, and achieved all objectives.

Israel's situation was one that could readily bring strong nations to their knees.

No, There was the Bar-lev line the strongest land fortifications in history.

Yet, within days, it had regained its footing and in less than two weeks it was threatening both enemy capitals.

Cairo was never threatened by israelis, it's just an israeli propaganda, During the war, they couldn't occupy the abandoned city of Suez nor Ismailia. On october 24, IDF tried to occupy city of Suez, This city was abandoned after '67 and contained only few Egyptian soldiers faced 4 israeli brigades, Although, IDF suffered humiliating defeat there, and they couldn't occupy the city. The same happened in Ismailia.
So how could they threaten cairo with a population more than 10 million people!

an achievement having few historical parallels.

In contrary, crossing the suez canal and destroying Bar-lev line is an achievement with no historical parallels.

The Egyptian 'Third Army' was totally trapped by the Israelis and saved from inhalation by the Americans.

Suez city was surrounded for 100 days, and also Ras Kabreet was surrounded for 134 days, and both never surrendered to IDF. In 1948, they surrounded the Egyptian army in Falluga for 4 monthes, although, they resisted IDF effectively.
It's the IDF in the west bank which was saved by the Americans.

Jordan didn't have the guts to enter the war.

Because, King Hussein was a complete Israeli ally, he even betrayed Egypt, and told the israelis about the Egyptian assault in October 6.

 

[Egitto]

I think everyone knows that the Israeli's won the 1973 war.

They didn't win the 1973 war, it's just an israeli propaganda.

The title is a bit misleading.

No, it's not misleading.

 

[Egitto]

but it was a conclusive proof that unlike 1948 and 1967 wars, Egyptians could actually fight.

Israeli recovery was made possible only thru immense help from USA. M-60’s were rolling out of the US cargo planes and going straight to the front. Israel was advertising for retired USAF/National Guard pilots of Jewish origin to fly Sky Hawks and USA made undisclosed number of A-4’s available for this purpose.

How true!

Israelis eventually prevailed for three reasons:

1.Every one in the world knew that there was no possibility that US will allow Israel to fall.

That's right.

2.Quality of Israeli manpower and Officer Corps was superior to the Egyptians and far exceeded those of the Syrians.

The war proved that Egyptian officers was much more efficent than israelis.

Let's check what British historian Edgar Oballance said in his valuable book:
"The Israelis now give the impression that they were merely caught by surprise & that once they had recovered their balance, all was well. They insist that their quality was still superior to arab quantity & that their young, energetic, capable generals were superior to those of the arabs as was the Israeli soldier to his Arab counter-part. The Israelis like to say they drove back the Arabs on both fronts, crossed the suez canal, penetrated into Africa & surrounded the Egyptian Third Army with ease. They further claim that only intervention by the superpowers saved the Third Army from surrendering & the Israelis from advancing further into Arab territory, as the road to Cairo lay open before them. This was by no means the correct picture & by perpetuating it, the Israelis are in danger of falling into the same errors of Self-deception & overconfidence that they did after the 1967 War."

3.If Israel falls, they have no where to go but into the sea, thus they were fighting for survival.

They were not fighting for their survival, because Egypt's objective was not to destroy Israel.

Main objective of this war initiated by Egypt was to regain all of the territory lost in 1967, which Sadaat managed to achieve afterwards thru Camp David accord. This would not have been possible if Egyptian forces had not successfully crossed the Suez.

Egypt's main objective during the war was to destroy Bar-lev line, cross the suez, liberate the eastern bank of Suez, inflicting heavy casualities in IDF, create an international crisis, stop the war, and then force Israel to negotiate with Egypt to withdraw from the Sinai.
That's what's really happened, and Egypt completely achieved its objectives during the war.

 

[Egitto]

Are you saying there were no 'immense help' from the USSR to the Arabs?
ISRAEL: The US, USSR and the Yom Kippur War | Stanford | World Association of International Studies

No, there were no immense help from the USSR to Egypt, and the US airlift to Israel was the largest after WWII, they gave them hundereds of tanks and aircrafts, and they gave them also TOWs and Mavericks which was used for the first time in history.

Let's check what David Elazar the israeli chief of staff during the war said:
"Yesterday evening, the aircrafts arrived which were sent by the United States to compensate all our losses till now, they came from US bases in Europe with the insignia of our air force. It started fighting after few moments."

and also
"Operation Nickel Grass continued under commandment and supervision of top responsibles of US ministry of defense. The giant aircrafts of type C5 and C141, set off from military bases where it had been charged with equipment and weapons, that airlift become the only hope till we return our breathers."

Also Golda Meir said at her book "My Life":
"The arrival of US transport aircraft C5, transporting military equipment and weapons continuously saved Israel of its worst fate, I remember that on October 7, I contacted again our Ambassador in the US who told me that it was three O’clock in the morning and I can not awaken any American responsible now. I told him that is not my concern what is the time now, death swallow our soldiers and any retarded hour cost us too much, awaken them all, contact Kissinger immediately, Kissinger replied that giant aircrafts type C141 received the president's order to transport all required"

 

[Egitto]

Yes, I think that our Egyptian friends lost fair and square.

No, Egypt didn't lose the war, it's just a massive zionist propaganda. If Egypt really lost why they retreated from the Sinai?!!
Egypt offered peace twice before the war in '71 and '73, however they refused these offers, let's check the US national archive.

May 20, 1973. Before war, Egypt offered peace, Israel refused.

In a meeting between Muhammed Hafez Ismail Egyptian presidential advisor for national security affairs and Henry A. Kissinger, Assistant to the president for national security affairs.

"Muhammed Hafez Ismail: we have gone to accept to enter into a peace agreement with Israel. This is the first time in almost a quarter of a century that an Arab Head of State takes a decision to be prepared to enter into a peace agreement with Israel, So if this is not the solution that Egypt wants, what is left for her? to accept status quo? or to go to war?"
US National Archive
Document No. 2a

After the war they accepted what they refused before the war.

 

[gambit]

No, there were no immense help from the USSR to Egypt, and the US airlift to Israel was the largest after WWII, they gave them hundereds of tanks and aircrafts, and they gave them also TOWs and Mavericks which was used for the first time in history.

Let's check what David Elazar the israeli chief of staff during the war said:
"Yesterday evening, the aircrafts arrived which were sent by the United States to compensate all our losses till now, they came from US bases in Europe with the insignia of our air force. It started fighting after few moments."

and also
"Operation Nickel Grass continued under commandment and supervision of top responsibles of US ministry of defense. The giant aircrafts of type C5 and C141, set off from military bases where it had been charged with equipment and weapons, that airlift become the only hope till we return our breathers."

Also Golda Meir said at her book "My Life":
"The arrival of US transport aircraft C5, transporting military equipment and weapons continuously saved Israel of its worst fate, I remember that on October 7, I contacted again our Ambassador in the US who told me that it was three O’clock in the morning and I can not awaken any American responsible now. I told him that is not my concern what is the time now, death swallow our soldiers and any retarded hour cost us too much, awaken them all, contact Kissinger immediately, Kissinger replied that giant aircrafts type C141 received the president's order to transport all required"

There are plenty of publicly available sources that dispute you. No matter how much you want to salvage some face for Egypt and the Arabs, the Soviets helped them out. No matter how much figures you post on US aid to Israel, it does not change the fact that the combined Arab forces against Israel used weapons made by the Soviets. Egypt and the Arabs, with weapons and political support from the Soviets, ganged upon Israel and they got their combines ***** handed it to them.