Xi calls for smaller but more capable army

[帅的一匹]

old man @gambit always talk about conscription. LOL to him, conscription = unprofessional. The US have conscription during war time and that's why you got your *** handle during the VN war. It's a misconception that China selective conscription meant everyone in the PLA is a conscript. By law, if China needs you, you are to serve at all cost, no different than the US does in war time. However, in reality, no one is forcing the citizens to serve in the PLA.

Americans don't know How things work out in China.

 

[Archie]

Well
US Military has 1.4 Million Troops,
I dont think a downsizing to 2 Million Troops is going to have an adverse impact for PLA, as long as the savings are used to bolster technology

 

[LeGenD]

Chinese military has massive numbers but limited mobility and power projection capabilities. China is embracing the (post-Vietnam era) military doctrine of the American armed forces of high mobility and well-coordinated power projection capabilities, and revolutionizing its military to that end. Therefore, reducing the number of troops is non-issue. Persian Gulf War (1991) was a wake-up call for the Chinese as well.

old man @gambit always talk about conscription. LOL to him, conscription = unprofessional. The US have conscription during war time and that's why you got your *** handle during the VN war. It's a misconception that China selective conscription meant everyone in the PLA is a conscript. By law, if China needs you, you are to serve at all cost, no different than the US does in war time. However, in reality, no one is forcing the citizens to serve in the PLA.

U.S. abandoned conscript model for recruitment in its armed forces after the Vietnam War, for more professional volunteer model. Conscripts are low-cost alternatives to well-trained (long-term) professionals.

@gambit don't bluff, you got your A$$ kicked hard in Vietnam. You only defeated Japan by frog leap in those Island, you never engaged their army front side. All you did was giving them two nuclear bombs. To be honest, USA army is not that good compared with navy and airforce.

You didn't win the Korean War and you loosed the Vietnam war.

Is that so?

Battle of Iwo Jima and Battle of Okinawa are two major examples of clashes between the Japanese Imperial Army and American marines on the ground during WW-II. You may study them.

Americans faced defeat in the Vietnam War due to a number of reasons. However, there performance was good in the battles of that war as well. And what about the failed Chinese campaign in Vietnam?

Korean War happened because North Korea attempted to annex South Korea. Americans routed North Korean forces from the South and were on the verge of capturing North Korea itself but the Chinese intervened in support of North alongside USSR. Chinese were battle-hardened veterans of WW-II much like the Americans, and the end-result was a stalemate that led to seemingly permanent divide in the region (North Korea and South Korea). Korean War was the right time to address this conflict. Chinese intervention solved nothing but created a major source of geopolitical headache for China and the U.S in the region that persists to this day.

 

[帅的一匹]

Chinese military has massive numbers but limited mobility and power projection capabilities. China is embracing the (post-Vietnam era) military doctrine of the American armed forces of high mobility and well-coordinated power projection capabilities, and revolutionizing its military to that end. Therefore, reducing the number of troops is non-issue. Persian Gulf War (1991) was a wake-up call for the Chinese as well.


U.S. abandoned conscript model for recruitment in its armed forces after the Vietnam War, for more professional volunteer model. Conscripts are low-cost alternatives to well-trained (long-term) professionals.


Is that so?

Battle of Iwo Jima and Battle of Okinawa are two major examples of clashes between the Japanese Imperial Army and American marines on the ground during WW-II. You may study them.

Americans faced defeat in the Vietnam War due to a number of reasons. However, there performance was good in the battles of that war as well. And what about the failed Chinese campaign in Vietnam?

Korean War happened because North Korea attempted to annex South Korea. Americans routed North Korean forces from the South and were on the verge of capturing North Korea itself but the Chinese intervened in support of North alongside USSR. Chinese were battle-hardened veterans of WW-II much like the Americans, and the end-result was a stalemate that led to seemingly permanent divide in the region (North Korea and South Korea). Korean War was the right time to address this conflict. Chinese intervention solved nothing but created a major source of geopolitical headache for China and the U.S in the region that persists to this day.

North Korea started the war without asking China's permission. We actually joined the war passively in the first beginning. Chinese never fear war, never. You may forget the trauma 60 years ago, actually we don't. All I can assure you is that your zero casualty will cease at the first minute you fire at us. Yankees have amnesia.

 

[mike2000 is back]

I think Xi is right on this one. Time for large armies is over. Todays and tomorrow's wars will be fought differently from past wars. So this move is the right move in my opinion and I believe in future China will reduce its military Personnel/manpower even further as it develops these coming decades.
Focus should be on technology, skills and capabilities. QUALITY not quantity will determine future sucess in winning wars nowadays.

 

[terranMarine]

Americans faced defeat in the Vietnam War due to a number of reasons. However, there performance was good in the battles of that war as well. And what about the failed Chinese campaign in Vietnam?

Korean War happened because North Korea attempted to annex South Korea. Americans routed North Korean forces from the South and were on the verge of capturing North Korea itself but the Chinese intervened in support of North alongside USSR. Chinese were battle-hardened veterans of WW-II much like the Americans, and the end-result was a stalemate that led to seemingly permanent divide in the region (North Korea and South Korea). Korean War was the right time to address this conflict. Chinese intervention solved nothing but created a major source of geopolitical headache for China and the U.S in the region that persists to this day.

You must be out of your mind if Chinese intervention did not solve anything. You think a united Korea under US won't create trouble in the region? The US keeps threatening Russia through Europe, don't be surprised US would be placing THAAD in a united Korea pointing at Russia and China. We know very well how Korea became divided in the first place and the US wanted to keep it that way. Once DPRK started the attack the US saw how it could beat the North with the help of over a dozen of countries. China had no choice but to intervene and thanks to our sacrifice the East Asian region has remained in peace after the end of the war.

 

[gambit]

old man @gambit always talk about conscription. LOL to him, conscription = unprofessional. The US have conscription during war time and that's why you got your *** handle during the VN war. It's a misconception that China selective conscription meant everyone in the PLA is a conscript. By law, if China needs you, you are to serve at all cost, no different than the US does in war time. However, in reality, no one is forcing the citizens to serve in the PLA.

This is not war time, and I never said that a conscription policy alone make a military 'unprofessional'. There are many militaries that are professional and have conscription policy. The Israelis for one, and Sweden is talking about returning to mandatory military service in '18.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/sweden-proposes-reintroduction-of-compulsory-military-service-1475101834

What make a military truly unprofessional is composed of many things and believe it -- conscription is the least of those things.

Your PLA is unprofessional in the sense that it does not serves the people but the Party. It is deeply corrupt and equally deeply political. The Pentagon does not say: 'Now we have a Republican President, all members must be monitored to see if everyone obey Republican ideals.' Your PLA say that via the political officers class.

No one is forced to serve in the PLA ? Wrong.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/LegislationsForm2001-2010/2011-02/14/content_21916676.htm

Article 3 All citizens of the People's Republic of China, regardless of ethnic status, race, occupation, family background, religious belief and education, have the obligation to perform military service according to the provisions of this Law.

The PLA may recruit and offers incentives to desirable individuals, but if the PLA needs to fulfill a quota, anyone can be compelled into service, peace or war time.

Looks like you do not know your country as well as you think.

 

[DCS]

I'll humor you Gambit.

Second, on the philosophical side, the chaplain do not answer to the Pentagon, but to God.

Oh, he most certainly does answer to the Pentagon. Who writes his cheque? Certainly not God.

Finally, the Chaplains Corps are not institutionally tasked by the US military to monitor the ideological bent of the troops.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015...ialed-for-refusing-to-remove-bible-verse.html

"The Christian Marine was given a bad conduct discharge and a reduction in rank from lance corporal to private."

"The plight of Lance Corporal Monifa Sterling seems unbelievable – a member of the Armed Forces criminally prosecuted for displaying a slightly altered passage of Scripture from the Old Testament: “No weapon formed against me shall prosper.”

“If the government can order a Marine not to display a Bible verse, they could try and order her not to get a religious tattoo, or go to church on Sunday,” said Liberty Institute attorney Michael Berry. “Restricting a Marine’s free exercise of religion is blatantly unconstitutional.”

US Marine Monifa Sterling found out the hard way that she will ultimately have to answer to her government, not her Chaplain, and certainly not God for the sin of displaying a biblical verse. What, are you like China, monitoring the ideological bent of your troops? What happened to your constitutional freedoms?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/235592.stm

Twenty thousands companies ? And that was a low side estimates back in 1998. You really think that these generals and admirals are so altruistic that they will drop control in a matter of a few months ?

Now, let's not pull the wool over the good people here. Let's take a look at when this article was published.

It was published on Tuesday, December 15, 1998 Published at 15:17 GMT, around 18 years ago. Does that look like a "few months" to you? The PLA has fully divested its commercial businesses more than decade ago. You still haven't shown anyone here an inkling of evidence to the contrary.

Essentially, the PLA have incompetent officers at all levels and in all branches responsible for everything from training to nuclear weapons. Mid grade officers can, have, and still extort from their own commands.

Soldiers charged with stealing, selling military equipment to foreign nations
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/0...ng-military-equipment-to-foreign-nations.html

"Six Fort Campbell soldiers were among eight people indicted by a federal grand jury on accusations they engaged in a conspiracy to steal and sell military sniper telescopes, machine gun parts, grenade launcher sights and other sensitive equipment to the highest bidder online – including several buyers in hostile foreign countries."

That's funny Gambit, you kept talking about China, you almost made me believe the United States military was all spit and shine.

"The soldiers are charged with stealing more than $1 million worth of equipment, such as flight helmets, communications headsets, body armor and medical supplies, according to a Justice Dept. news release issued Thursday. Two of the men are charged with selling some of the equipment to customers in Russia, China, Hong Kong, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Mexico, among other nations."

No, it is not.
Yeah...You go on believe that there are no unregistered PLA businesses.

A million dollars worth of US miltary equipment, pilfered from the US taxpayer, and delivered straight to the customer's door in Russia, China, and the Hong Kong SAR.

Gambit, are you telling me these American soldiers are running an unregistered US Army business?

A retired US Army general signed a consultancy gig to Fox News or CNN and everyone questions his integrity. But in your PLA, a general for decades offered his position and connections to the highest bidders and no one batted an eye.

Army General Used Government Credit Card at Strip Clubs, Pentagon Says
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/07/us/general-ron-lewis-credit-card-gentlemens-club.html?_r=0

"An Army general who was previously the senior military assistant to Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter used his government credit card at strip clubs in Rome and Seoul and had inappropriate interactions with women, according to a Pentagon investigation released Thursday."

"The report, by the Defense Department inspector general, alleges that Maj. Gen. Ronald F. Lewis visited a strip club in Seoul, South Korea, called the Candy Bar, in a neighborhood commonly referred to as Hooker Hill."

A Major General that served under Ashton Carter, using a taxpayer credit card for hookers and blow in international destinations such as Rome and Seoul. How's that for integrity?

This is just a minor case, peanuts compared to the monumental corruption and waste in the DoD that has led to trillions of $ down the drain with pork barrel projects like the LCS. The US military is saddled with influence peddling and corruption at the very top. The board of directors of Theranos was filled with ex-military brass like Mattis, lobbying for the biggest medical scam of the decade. He is now in the running for SecDef under the new administration.

As usual, it is evident that these responses came from those who have never served and do not know what they are talking about.

This is important, and has to be said. Nobody gives a shit about the time you did in the US military. Your point had better stand on its own, without hoping for your credentials to do the heavy lifting.

When questioned on your confused bullshit, you have been evasive. You claimed all the J-20 program had were flying prototypes, I corrected you and stated it is in serial production. You used news from 1998 to prove that the PLA has commercial interests in 2016, I pointed out how intellectual dishonest it was to use an article from 18 years ago to prove a point. You cherry picked cases of individual corruption, and generalized it to the whole Chinese military. I cherry picked some egregious cases from the US to demonstrate how foolish that is.

Do not ever presume that you are superior to everyone here when you don't have the facts.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Korean War happened because North Korea attempted to annex South Korea. Americans routed North Korean forces from the South and were on the verge of capturing North Korea itself but the Chinese intervened in support of North alongside USSR. Chinese were battle-hardened veterans of WW-II much like the Americans, and the end-result was a stalemate that led to seemingly permanent divide in the region (North Korea and South Korea). Korean War was the right time to address this conflict. Chinese intervention solved nothing but created a major source of geopolitical headache for China and the U.S in the region that persists to this day.

China said "Do not approach the Yalu river". There were multiple warnings, all of which America ignored during the Korean War.

If they had just listened, then they would have had overwhelming victory over North Korea, instead of forcing a Chinese intervention which led to the longest ever retreat of US military forces in history.

Why change a sure victory into a loss for no reason, it was just pure arrogance that assumed that even a China at the weakest point in our history would not have acted.

 

[帅的一匹]

China said "Do not approach the Yalu river". There were multiple warnings, all of which America ignored during the Korean War.

If they had just listened, then they would have had overwhelming victory over North Korea, instead of forcing a Chinese intervention which led to the longest ever retreat of US military forces in history.

Why change a sure victory into a loss for no reason, it was just pure arrogance that assumed that even a China at the weakest point in our history would not have acted.

McArthur didn't read the SunTze art of war.

 

[terranMarine]

OVER 800 soldiers were wiped out

 

[gambit]

I'll humor you Gambit.

And I will humor you...Observe...

Oh, he most certainly does answer to the Pentagon. Who writes his cheque? Certainly not God.

The analogy that a chaplain is the same as the political officer is so absurd in its face that one does not need to spend a single day in the military to see the stupidity in the analogy.

The political officer is imposed by the government, whereas the chaplain is requested by the troops themselves.

The jurisdiction of the political officer is over everyone, whereas the chaplain's jurisdiction is only over religious issues as requested by the individual, in other words, if a person does not come to the chaplain, there is nothing the chaplain can do about it. In fact, many soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines seek civilian religious counseling instead of going to the military chaplains.

The political officer is, and must be, intimately involved with the daily operations of the unit, he may or may not be combat rated, whereas the chaplain, not only is he NOT a line officer, he is not allowed to bear arms according to the Geneva Convention.

Your argument indicates you have little knowledge, let alone understanding of what is the role of a chaplain in the military.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015...ialed-for-refusing-to-remove-bible-verse.html

"The Christian Marine was given a bad conduct discharge and a reduction in rank from lance corporal to private."

"The plight of Lance Corporal Monifa Sterling seems unbelievable – a member of the Armed Forces criminally prosecuted for displaying a slightly altered passage of Scripture from the Old Testament: “No weapon formed against me shall prosper.”

“If the government can order a Marine not to display a Bible verse, they could try and order her not to get a religious tattoo, or go to church on Sunday,” said Liberty Institute attorney Michael Berry. “Restricting a Marine’s free exercise of religion is blatantly unconstitutional.”

US Marine Monifa Sterling found out the hard way that she will ultimately have to answer to her government, not her Chaplain, and certainly not God for the sin of displaying a biblical verse. What, are you like China, monitoring the ideological bent of your troops? What happened to your constitutional freedoms?

Har...That is funny.

I have stated before that the PDF Chinese is not a very smart bunch, and YOU further reinforced that.

Sterling's punishment came from violation of the policy of banning of displaying religious artifacts, in other words, she chose her religious feelings over secular laws. The Marine Corps did not punish her for her religious beliefs. The policy was that no religious artifacts, including verses, are to be prominently displayed. She can be a Republican or Democrat or Libertarian or even Communist and the Corps can do nothing about it.

Now, let's not pull the wool over the good people here. Let's take a look at when this article was published.

It was published on Tuesday, December 15, 1998 Published at 15:17 GMT, around 18 years ago. Does that look like a "few months" to you? The PLA has fully divested its commercial businesses more than decade ago. You still haven't shown anyone here an inkling of evidence to the contrary.

The PLA was ordered to divest its business interests five months FROM THE TIME THE ORDER WAS GIVEN IN 1998.

Here is the relevant paragraph...

Last July President Jiang Zemin ordered the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and armed police forces to give up their commercial interests in 20,000 companies by 15 December 1998.

See the highlighted ? Essentially, Zemin said: Get it done by Dec 1998.

You have a reading comprehension problem.

That's funny Gambit, you kept talking about China, you almost made me believe the United States military was all spit and shine.

I never said the US military is perfect. But what you posted is nothing more than isolated criminality, whereas the corruption in your PLA is systematic and endemic.

This is just a minor case, peanuts compared to the monumental corruption and waste in the DoD that has led to trillions of $ down the drain with pork barrel projects like the LCS. The US military is saddled with influence peddling and corruption at the very top. The board of directors of Theranos was filled with ex-military brass like Mattis, lobbying for the biggest medical scam of the decade. He is now in the running for SecDef under the new administration.

If you have to go this route, then your PLA is a hundred times worse considering what is exposed is only the tip of the PLA iceberg.

This is important, and has to be said. Nobody gives a shit about the time you did in the US military. Your point had better stand on its own, without hoping for your credentials to do the heavy lifting.

This is a military oriented forum, therefore, what I was matters. You PDF Chinese never gave a shit about experience, we know that. Arrogance seems to be genetic.

When questioned on your confused bullshit, you have been evasive. You claimed all the J-20 program had were flying prototypes, I corrected you and stated it is in serial production.

When the F-22 entered serial production, it was for line squadrons, pal. Pilots were already trained and wings were waiting for their jets. You can quibble all you want on whether the J-20 is in 'serial production' or not but as far as comparing to the F-22 and F-35, what you have are prototypes. Maybe just a wee bit over the line.

You cherry picked cases of individual corruption, and generalized it to the whole Chinese military. I cherry picked some egregious cases from the US to demonstrate how foolish that is.

Nobody but the PDF Chinese would believe what you did was credible. The PLA's corruption is so bad that even your own leadership acknowledged it. How else can you explain the current drive by the Chinese government to reform the PLA ?

Do not ever presume that you are superior to everyone here when you don't have the facts.

Take your own advice.

 

[LeGenD]

You must be out of your mind if Chinese intervention did not solve anything. You think a united Korea under US won't create trouble in the region? The US keeps threatening Russia through Europe, don't be surprised US would be placing THAAD in a united Korea pointing at Russia and China. We know very well how Korea became divided in the first place and the US wanted to keep it that way. Once DPRK started the attack the US saw how it could beat the North with the help of over a dozen of countries. China had no choice but to intervene and thanks to our sacrifice the East Asian region has remained in peace after the end of the war.

So a madman with nuclear weapons under his command, is your idea of solution for Korea at large? Your trust in DPRK is misplaced, my friend. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

On the other hand, South Korea is a role-model state in the region. I would rather have South Korea as my neighbor.

THAAD is coming because DPRK is developing long-range missiles.

As for American troops being stationed in South Korea, once again DPRK provides the impetus for it. If DPRK had not existed, then Koreans would have rejected long-term American presence in the region.

I maintain that China committed a strategic blunder in Korea.

China said "Do not approach the Yalu river". There were multiple warnings, all of which America ignored during the Korean War.

If they had just listened, then they would have had overwhelming victory over North Korea, instead of forcing a Chinese intervention which led to the longest ever retreat of US military forces in history.

Why change a sure victory into a loss for no reason, it was just pure arrogance that assumed that even a China at the weakest point in our history would not have acted.

General MacArthur was an idiot. However, President Truman sacked him. China had the option to work it out with the US but didn't.

What we have now is much more dangerous.

 

[DCS]

The analogy that a chaplain is the same as the political officer is so absurd in its face that one does not need to spend a single day in the military to see the stupidity in the analogy.

You do have a reading comprehension problem. You haven't quoted where I claimed a chaplain is the same as a political officer, because you can't.

And I will humor you...Observe...

The jurisdiction of the political officer is over everyone, whereas the chaplain's jurisdiction is only over religious issues as requested by the individual, in other words, if a person does not come to the chaplain, there is nothing the chaplain can do about it. In fact, many soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines seek civilian religious counseling instead of going to the military chaplains.

The political officer is, and must be, intimately involved with the daily operations of the unit, he may or may not be combat rated, whereas the chaplain, not only is he NOT a line officer, he is not allowed to bear arms according to the Geneva Convention.

Let's quote wiki here, as outside of anecdotes there are few foreign sources on the role of a political officer in the PLA. This is common knowledge for anyone with passing familiarity with the organization of PLA.

"Today the political commissar is largely responsible for administrative tasks such as public relations and counseling, and mainly serves as second-in-command."

He does not have all encompassing jurisdiction. You were told before, that PLA political officers primarily handled people affairs, including some clerical and administrative tasks. You claimed that they inspired fear and loathing among the troops, without any evidence as usual. I told you there tasks were vital, but relatively mundane. As is typical with you, you pressed the point further and insisted that they should be abolished.

Basically, just hot air. I actually did undergo training at Whampoa, and anyone who has undergone training in China would know you are uninformed and full of shit.

Your argument indicates you have little knowledge, let alone understanding of what is the role of a chaplain in the military.

Your argument indicates you have little knowledge, let alone understanding of the role of a political officer in the PLA. You like your Hollywood tropes, with a commissar sitting in the back waiting to finger out any dissenter. Reality is much more mundane I assure you.

I have stated before that the PDF Chinese is not a very smart bunch, and YOU further reinforced that.

PDF Chinese are fine. The problem is that you like to cherry pick little facts from the internet about China, and the moment someone actually familiar with the matter comes along, you come out looking like a fool. I'll demonstrate this shortly.

Your PLA is unprofessional in the sense that it does not serves the people but the Party. It is deeply corrupt and equally deeply political.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Here's a rough translation of the Oath of Service in China.

"I am a citizen of the People's Republic of China, in accordance with the law for military service is honorable duty I should, in order to take up the sacred duty of the revolutionary soldier, I declared Oath: love the Chinese Communist Party, love the socialist motherland, love of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, serving the people wholeheartedly. Implement the Party's line, principles, policies, compliance with national laws and regulations, the implementation of the orders, rules and regulations of the army to obey orders. Efforts to learn the military, political, scientific, cultural, and combat ability to care for weaponry, safeguard military secrets, carry forward the fine traditions to participate in the socialist spiritual civilization of intangible cultural courage to fight against the same abuses. Heroic fighting, fear no sacrifice to defend the socialist motherland, safeguard the people's peaceful labor, and in any case never betray the motherland. Above oath, I am determined to fulfill, and never contrary."

As part of our service, we do swear to serve and protect the people, this is stated explicitly during the oath. This is also repeatedly emphasized during indoctrination, by your much maligned political officers. This isn't just idle talk. Contrast the excellent work done by the PLA during the Sichuan earthquake, with the apathetic response to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

Your claim that the PLA serves the party, but not the people, is just a typical ideological rant from an uninformed outsider.

Evacuation of Chinese nationals from Yemen.

http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/14/china-not-america-rescues-its-own-citizens-stuck-in-yemen/

I never said the US military is perfect. But what you posted is nothing more than isolated criminality, whereas the corruption in your PLA is systematic and endemic.

You see, this is the type of mental gymnastics you engage in. Corruption cases in the PLA are "systematic and endemic". Corruption and misconduct in the US military is "isolated criminality". I called you out before for double standards, you haven't learned a thing.

I'm done with you.

 

[terranMarine]

So a madman with nuclear weapons under his command, is your idea of solution for Korea at large? Your trust in DPRK is misplaced, my friend. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

On the other hand, South Korea is a role-model state in the region. I would rather have South Korea as my neighbor.

THAAD is coming because DPRK is developing long-range missiles.

As for American troops being stationed in South Korea, once again DPRK provides the impetus for it. If DPRK had not existed, then Koreans would have rejected long-term American presence in the region.

I maintain that China committed a strategic blunder in Korea.


General MacArthur was an idiot. However, President Truman sacked him. China had the option to work it out with the US but didn't.

What we have now is much more dangerous.

Tell that to China and Russia that THAAD is not directed at us, see if they believe your story.