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WS-13 is nearing completion

Most experts feel that the J-10 will kill the JF-17. The Russians will not give the RD-93, as it will remove them from the export market, with the economical JF-17/ FC-1.

What if the WS-13 fails to be upto the mark? The Chinese is force PAF to buy the J-10.
 
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I'll have to differ with you there.

The Chinese have developed systems comparable - if not superior - to that of 4th Gen. Russian systems. This includes the J-10, and I doubt you'll take PLAAF claims about it beating Su-27; but I think anyone who looks at J-10, they'd say it's not 1950s & 1960s technology. They even produced a reverse-engineered/indiginized Su-27 called J-11B.

The WS-13 has already gone through initial tests, it should not take long before it enters service. We'll have to wait and see I guess.

JF-17 would have been ideal for 1997, but I would not call it out right obsolete. I do not think 5th Gen. Russian jets will enter service in 2009-2010...or any time before 2015.

We'll have to agree to disagree.


Well, that so called J-11 is license manufactured from detailed plans, jigs, personnel and experts from the Irkutsk facility and equipment supplied by Sukhoi. ;) Otherwise these backward Chinese would still be flying that junky aas F-6/ F-7.:lol: They were flying them in full force until 1995 Mark! 4000 of them man!:lol: Along with that dump truck J-8.

Thats China for you:lol:

The only thing these chinese are good for is to fill them $5 trinket shelves, Bed-spreads, towels and blankets at Walmart. Thats about it. They don't even make appliances yet.

If putin cuts them off from both Oil/ Gas and technology supplies, then they're done. As the West ain't gonna giveem much unless they allow Tiananmen Square to not happen again......and Unkal Sam pulls the rug from underneath.:lol: Then back to Chinese restraunt....:lol:
 
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Well, that so called J-11 is license manufactured from detailed plans, jigs, personnel and experts from the Irkutsk facility and equipment supplied by Sukhoi. ;) Otherwise these backward Chinese would still be flying that junky aas F-6/ F-7.:lol: They were flying them in full force until 1995 Mark! 4000 of them man!:lol: Along with that dump truck J-8.

Thats China for you:lol:

The only thing these chinese are good for is to fill them $5 trinket shelves, Bed-spreads, towels and blankets at Walmart. Thats about it. They don't even make appliances yet.

If putin cuts them off from both Oil/ Gas and technology supplies, then they're done. As the West ain't gonna giveem much unless they allow Tiananmen Square to not happen again......and Unkal Sam pulls the rug from underneath.:lol: Then back to Chinese restraunt....:lol:

That's a lot of IFs. "If China gets hit be a meteorite..."
 
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Well, that so called J-11 is license manufactured from detailed plans, jigs, personnel and experts from the Irkutsk facility and equipment supplied by Sukhoi. ;) Otherwise these backward Chinese would still be flying that junky aas F-6/ F-7.:lol: They were flying them in full force until 1995 Mark! 4000 of them man!:lol: Along with that dump truck J-8.

Thats China for you:lol:

The only thing these chinese are good for is to fill them $5 trinket shelves, Bed-spreads, towels and blankets at Walmart. Thats about it. They don't even make appliances yet.

If putin cuts them off from both Oil/ Gas and technology supplies, then they're done. As the West ain't gonna giveem much unless they allow Tiananmen Square to not happen again......and Unkal Sam pulls the rug from underneath.:lol: Then back to Chinese restraunt....:lol:
i think you are living in jungle.you not know what are you taking. 80% of electronics products of world markit belong to china i never see a single product in EU which belong to russia. main hi -tech.companies of west transfor thier production lines in china.
 
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i think you are living in jungle.you not know what are you taking. 80% of electronics products of world markit belong to china i never see a single product in EU which belong to russia. main hi -tech.companies of west transfor thier production lines in china.

Oh yaar tu aesa kar.......kay khuda da khauf karkay....aur angraizee pehlay seekh lay.:tup:

yae chinese nu chhappay lugganay day. They are only good at that.;)

P.S. Those production lines that you are talking about, those are all for clothing, trinkets, household items and cheap walmart and target junk.
 
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Oh yaar tu aesa kar.......kay khuda da khauf karkay....aur angraizee pehlay seekh lay.:tup:

yae chinese nu chhappay lugganay day. They are only good at that.;)

P.S. Those production lines that you are talking about, those are all for clothing, trinkets, household items and cheap walmart and target junk.

China could emerge as a scientific and technical superpower in the next 20 years if it improves its management of intellectual property and finance, further liberalises its markets, and relaxes political constraints.


Summary Analysis: Since it embarked on economic liberalisation in the 1980s, China has emerged as a global manufacturing powerhouse. It appears likely that unless there is a domestic crisis or a global economic depression, China's enterprises will move up the value chain in the next decades, from cheap manufacturing to design and systems integration. It is also likely that the country will continue to grow its infrastructure for scientific research and engineering and will continue to attract foreign capital. In the next two decades, it will probably also follow today's emerging scientific powers (such as Singapore and Korea) in competing for world-class, often Western-trained, scientific and engineering talent.
These factors will continue to enable China's scientific and technological advancement:


Educational reform and growth -- China has long been a leading exporter of graduate students. In the last 20 years, domestic training programs in science and technology have grown dramatically. PhD production increased fiftyfold between 1986 and 1999, from less than 200 to more than 7,000 degrees granted annually. By some estimates, China now graduates more engineers than the rest of the world combined. Part of this growth has been driven by an expansion of the Chinese higher education system, a trend that seems certain to continue. More ambitious universities are likely to recruit heavily from abroad.
Foreign investment -- In the 1990s, China began to attract substantial foreign investment in R&D. Today, about 400 of the Fortune 500 have a presence in China, and there are several hundred foreign-funded R&D centres. Many of the early centres were little more than testing facilities established to fulfill state requirements regarding foreign investment; the newer centers, in contrast, are not just engaged in product localisation or supporting manufacturing but are moving into high-quality design and research aimed at global markets.
Innovation structures -- Like the US and EU countries, China has developed new institutions designed to promote the transfer of academic knowledge into the marketplace and to incubate new companies. Beijing's Zhongguancun Science Park is host to thousands of small high-tech companies, some 1,800 of which were started by Chinese expatriates lured home in the late 1990s and 2000s.
State policy -- Both the national Chinese government and individual states have developed programs for attracting foreign investment, incubating new businesses, and promoting innovation. Government funding for basic science doubled between 1995 and 2000, and China aims to increase funding for R&D from 1% to 1.5% of GDP (a figure comparable to the US immediately after World War II). The government's priorities have also shifted: some of its inefficient state institutes, many of them located in the nation's interior, have been closed, while funding for the Chinese space program (which has great symbolic and military value) has been generous.
Western commentators identify significant limits to the growth of Chinese science and technology, however. Intellectual property and patent regimes are still murky, and this is likely to inspire reluctance among Western companies. Concerns about military transfer of new technology, and the degree to which China is pursuing its own technical standards in order to challenge Western companies, may also become more pronounced.
 
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Most experts feel that the J-10 will kill the JF-17. The Russians will not give the RD-93, as it will remove them from the export market, with the economical JF-17/ FC-1.

What if the WS-13 fails to be upto the mark? The Chinese is force PAF to buy the J-10.

perfect thought process.

Infact there are lot of articvles which have been published which states that PLAAF isnot interesdted in JF-17 but is been forced to by the govt so that they canc reate a good impression on foreign govts.
 
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perfect thought process.

Infact there are lot of articvles which have been published which states that PLAAF isnot interesdted in JF-17 but is been forced to by the govt so that they canc reate a good impression on foreign govts.

This is a flawed understanding. There are upwards of 4000 obsolete or nearing obsolescense airframes in the PLAAF that require replacement. J-10 even in its most stripped down form is at least close to $30 million a copy. Even if the Chinese replace the older aircraft with J-10s with a ratio of 3:1, its cost prohibitive for them. This is where JF-17 comes in for them.

With everything chinese in the aircraft, the PLAAF can keep the prices for the FC-1 under $15-17 million/ac. FC-1 has a very decent potential in the PLAAF and for export. Chinese do not do things just because PAF tells them to do it or want them to do it.

The fact that Chinese are developing an engine which is primarily geared for the FC-1 should shed some light on the level of commitment on their part towards this aircraft.

As far as those going off on a tangent about Chinese being technologically backward, all I can say about that is on many a technology front's Chinese are eating our lunch (they are competing with many US companies and actually taking market share away from APAC (AsiaPACific markets). I do not want to go into too much detail about this aspect as I would have to name things and entities which would not be appropriate on this forum, but as the famous adage goes "slow and steady wins the race"...such is the case with the Chinese. Pretty soon their research budgetting will be second to US (this means they will exceed EU). So people here going off about China lagging behind etc. are probably a bit detached from reality because they do not realize that unlike the formative years of 80s and 90's, the Chinese research will grow by leaps and bounds within this decade and continue onwards.

Engine production is inherently a difficult engineering discipline to master....I have mentioned this in other threads too that even Russians play a distant "third" fiddle to the US/Europeans in this field. Chinese will catch up with Russians within the decade in terms of the engine development and all these issues will be a moot point. They will have set backs along the way, however the amount of money that the Chinese are starting to pour into research will ensure that they get this expertise either through in-house work or through lucrative collaboration deals with the EU market.
 
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This is a flawed understanding. There are upwards of 4000 obsolete or nearing obsolescense airframes in the PLAAF that require replacement. J-10 even in its most stripped down form is at least close to $30 million a copy. Even if the Chinese replace the older aircraft with J-10s with a ratio of 3:1, its cost prohibitive for them. This is where JF-17 comes in for them.

With everything chinese in the aircraft, the PLAAF can keep the prices for the FC-1 under $15-17 million/ac. FC-1 has a very decent potential in the PLAAF and for export. Chinese do not do things just because PAF tells them to do it or want them to do it.

The fact that Chinese are developing an engine which is primarily geared for the FC-1 should shed some light on the level of commitment on their part towards this aircraft.

As far as those going off on a tangent about Chinese being technologically backward, all I can say about that is on many a technology front's Chinese are eating our lunch (they are competing with many US companies and actually taking market share away from APAC (AsiaPACific markets). I do not want to go into too much detail about this aspect as I would have to name things and entities which would not be appropriate on this forum, but as the famous adage goes "slow and steady wins the race"...such is the case with the Chinese. Pretty soon their research budgetting will be second to US (this means they will exceed EU). So people here going off about China lagging behind etc. are probably a bit detached from reality because they do not realize that unlike the formative years of 80s and 90's, the Chinese research will grow by leaps and bounds within this decade and continue onwards.

Engine production is inherently a difficult engineering discipline to master....I have mentioned this in other threads too that even Russians play a distant "third" fiddle to the US/Europeans in this field. Chinese will catch up with Russians within the decade in terms of the engine development and all these issues will be a moot point. They will have set backs along the way, however the amount of money that the Chinese are starting to pour into research will ensure that they get this expertise either through in-house work or through lucrative collaboration deals with the EU market.

I think you are being a bit too optimistic. China struggling to copy the RD-93...let alone Al-31F, while the Russians and Americans are deploying 5th Gen. aircraft?:)

Lets not kid ourselves.;)

And your claim about "Russians" palying a distant third fiddle is another hollow statement. Don't get delusional........There are far more Su-30 in demand, operational in huge numbers and affordable offering the same if not higher capability and performance than any Grippens or Euro-fighters or that still born Rafale. No body is buying the Euro fighter, or the Rafale. Not even the **** Saudi's.

China has no history of innovation or design related achievement. I discount them on their capabilities. They haven't produced a single credible and proprietary product.....defense or civilian......nothing! Since 1948.;)

If Russia withdraws support they'd be again thrown into a time warp.......Like when Stalin cut the umblical on them, and they flew the F-6 for 40 years........you remember that???

Innovative my aas! They are good copycats.
 
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I think you are being a bit too optimistic. China struggling to copy the RD-93...let alone Al-31F, while the Russians and Americans are deploying 5th Gen. aircraft?:)

Lets not kid ourselves.;) .

No they are not, why the hell PAF would be interested if they are not going to get the desired stuff, even according to few chinese resources the engine will ready within a year's time, let the americans and russians do what ever they want, we are not questioning what they are doing right now. The question about the 5th gen AC china is also catching up pretty fast, no doubt the americans and russians have a huge experience in developing such things, but lets not underestimate china.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/reference/Jet_Engines/China.htm

"Lets not kid ourselves", is a childish statement.

China has no history of innovation or design related achievement. I discount them on their capabilities. They haven't produced a single credible and proprietary product.....defense or civilian......nothing! Since 1948.;) .

But still they are one hell of a force,......why is that?
You probably have'nt been to supermarket or what ever, 90% the stuff sell there is from....... guess, and its cheap, forget the quality of its fulfilling its purpose, just put couple of more bucks$$$ and you'll get that too.

If Russia withdraws support they'd be again thrown into a time warp.......Like when Stalin cut the umblical on them, and they flew the F-6 for 40 years........you remember that???.

Why would the russians withdraw from their support?, remind you if russians cut their support they'll suffer, hell more than anybody else. They still survived with those F-6's, infact learnt more and progressed. It's a different time now,...... now you remember that.

Innovative my aas! They are good copycats.
:rolleyes: Huh!!!...whose saying whom!
So what if they are copycats, there are hundereds of other countries who cant even copy, including, Pakistan & india plus some western nations (perhaps shouldnt have to remind you this aussie land too).
 
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Amen to that.

I cant think of single innovatio that Chineese achieved in lst many years.

Anyway they hatred of LDP and his Indian friends towards China is pathetic. A few decades ago China produced bad copies of mig21. They barely were able to make something like J6 and J5. If I remember correct the pilots had leather helmets... Now with matured J7, finisheing JF17, J10 and J11b we see them progress like no other. We can be sure that J12 (or Jxx) isa in development... At the same time India has been playing around with the LCA which is in fact a foreign plane and even then its destiny is the grave like many other, excuse me, like all other Indian military products. Yet I do not hear the LDP talking about that. And surely the Indians are happy to join the bashing. Why not compare the achievements in aviation field between India and China?
 
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I think you are being a bit too optimistic. China struggling to copy the RD-93...let alone Al-31F, while the Russians and Americans are deploying 5th Gen. aircraft?:)

Lets not kid ourselves.;)

And your claim about "Russians" palying a distant third fiddle is another hollow statement. Don't get delusional........There are far more Su-30 in demand, operational in huge numbers and affordable offering the same if not higher capability and performance than any Grippens or Euro-fighters or that still born Rafale. No body is buying the Euro fighter, or the Rafale. Not even the **** Saudi's.

China has no history of innovation or design related achievement. I discount them on their capabilities. They haven't produced a single credible and proprietary product.....defense or civilian......nothing! Since 1948.;)

If Russia withdraws support they'd be again thrown into a time warp.......Like when Stalin cut the umblical on them, and they flew the F-6 for 40 years........you remember that???

Innovative my aas! They are good copycats.


Most of your comments are a case of blowing massive sunshine up the Russian hardware's you know what. I have read the same thing over and over and know things are different for a fact.

I don't really care how you perceive the Russians to be very honest, I have been close enough on the engineering side to know that Chinese are not that far behind. On the Engine development issue, I stand by my point wrt Russians playing a *distant* 3rd fiddle.

Buying more Su/27s/30s does not mean anything for the engines. We already know that Russians have achieved a certain level of competency in this field, however its certainly not the best in the world and is certainly not at a point where it would be impossible for Chinese to catch up to. The case of sales is not any different than the 60s and 70s when Soviets sold 3 aircraft for every 1 western aircraft sold...cheap aircraft have their own benefit for Airforces with limited budgets...yes Russian hardware is good but that does not mean that it is good across the board. AL-31F can't even come close to the quality of engines being produced in the US...raw thrust is not the only thing of importance...its an investment that requires payoffs over the life of the engine and this is where the quality comes in.

Unlike the 80s and 90s, Chinese are not relying on Russians alone. There is far more Chinese investment in aerospace research, scholarships for students studying overseas etc. in related disciplines....within a decade, engine dev. wise, Chinese will achieve same levels of competency as the Russians if not better.
 
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Anyway they hatred of LDP and his Indian friends towards China is pathetic. A few decades ago China produced bad copies of mig21. They barely were able to make something like J6 and J5. If I remember correct the pilots had leather helmets... Now with matured J7, finisheing JF17, J10 and J11b we see them progress like no other. We can be sure that J12 (or Jxx) isa in development... At the same time India has been playing around with the LCA which is in fact a foreign plane and even then its destiny is the grave like many other, excuse me, like all other Indian military products. Yet I do not hear the LDP talking about that. And surely the Indians are happy to join the bashing. Why not compare the achievements in aviation field between India and China?

Munir,
when i say they are bad,by no means im meaning that we are better off.
 
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