Worshippers killed in Afghanistan attack

[Ahmad]

I believe in facts on the ground, signified by the events that have taken place in the region, & the facts speak out for themselves. There is a serious doubt about the ability of the ISI, about what it can actually deliver in the Afghan endgame, to the negotiating table. The ISI cannot be expected to bring the Taliban or the Haqqanis to the table, only to facilitate dialog. Pakistan is only important to the Afghan talks post 2014 because Pakistan's stability (& Afghanistan directly affects it) is imperative to the region & the world. However, there is very little Pakistan can do in terms of the Afghan endgame, which is why the Afghan peace process will be 'Afghan led'. The Haqqanis & the Taliban are their own entities, & the ISI does not control them. The ISI only has deep inside information about them & their network (like a good intelligence agency should have), but it does not control the Taliban or the Haqqanis, & cannot bring them to the table, or force them to do anything they don't want to do. It is really quite simple. The Americans have unfortunately been proven wrong time & time again with their baseless speculations (which are initially reported from Afghan intelligence officers). Gul is out of the loop in the current situation. Gul even said 9/11 was a hoax, & that the OBL raid was a hoax.

Bilal, it looks like your facts are only your own talking and belief! Tell me how come Pakistan is irrelevant and cant do much now but can do much and everythign after 2014?

 

[53fd]

ISI directed attack on indian consulate? new fronts you are talking about -

The ISI did not direct the attack on the Indian consulate. Where is the proof?

If they are banned or publicly declared terrorists, ISI will immediately ensure there exodus into safehouses like osama. Right move not to declare the haqqanis as terrorists,, just keep firing those hell-fires

If they are declared terrorists, why would the ISI want to maintain contact with them? If the ISI gets found out in a situation where it is facilitating or even in contact with a FTO, there will be serious consequences for the ISI & Pakistan on a whole. The reason why the Haqqanis have not been declared a FTO, even though they have allegedly been responsible for the majority of attacks in Eastern Afghanistan, has nothing to do with Pakistan.

US state department is a liar, BBC is a liar, wahington posts are liars.. indians are liars, Reuters are liars, hillary/obama/cameron/etc all liars, every independent agency related to WoT is pointing fingers at pakistan is a liar... the only one who are saying the truth is the ISI, right?

Obama lied calling Raymond Davis a diplomat. The Iraq WMDs was a lie as well. Along with countless other official lies.

Are you sure about that, are the haqqanis now -producing the mines, rpgs, grenades ak 47's and the ammunition from thin air. stop living in denial, its becoming funny now

They were the ones that were armed & equipped by the CIA, they had been the CIA's blue eyed boys, so obviously, they put that money to good use.

 

[53fd]

Bilal, it looks like your facts are only your own talking and belief! Tell me how come Pakistan is irrelevant and cant do much now but can do much and everythign after 2014?

Pakistan's security (which results in the security in the region, & the world. Events in Afghanistan directly affect Pakistan & its stability) is the only thing that is relevant/important to the Afghan peace process post 2014, however what the ISI can deliver to the table is being seriously doubted. Even pundits that had been making baseless speculations about the ISI now admit that Pakistan cannot be expected to bring the Taliban or the Haqqanis to the negotiating table. Pakistan can at most 'facilitate' the talks. The process will be Afghan led, & Pakistan's legitimate security concerns will be addressed as well post 2014. So that when the US/NATO troops leave the region post 2014, the ANA/ANP are strong enough, & that there is no mass exodus of terrorism into Pakistan from Afghanistan.

 

[Ahmad]

Pakistan's security (which results in the security in the region, & the world. Events in Afghanistan directly affect Pakistan & its stability) is the only thing that is relevant/important to the Afghan peace process post 2014, however what it can deliver to the table is being seriously doubted. Even pundits that had been making baseless speculations about the ISI now admit that Pakistan cannot be expected to bring the Taliban or the Haqqanis to the negotiating table. Pakistan can at most 'facilitate' the talks. The process will be Afghan led, & Pakistan's legitimate security concerns will be addressed as well post 2014. So that when the US/NATO troops leave the region post 2014, the ANA/ANP are strong enough, & that there is no mass exodus of terrorism into Pakistan from Afghanistan.

You still didnt answer my question clearly, you only play by the words. What is the difference between now and post 2014 in your position? secondly, about the bolded part, what makes it special that your efforts are not counted now but will give fruit later on.

 

[MilSpec]

The ISI did not direct the attack on the Indian consulate. Where is the proof?

Look up intercepts by US survellence between haqqanis and IS operatives.

If they are declared terrorists, why would the ISI want to maintain contact with them? If the ISI gets found out in a situation where it is facilitating or even in contact with a FTO, there will be serious consequences for the ISI & Pakistan on a whole. The reason why the Haqqanis have not been declared a FTO, even though they have allegedly been responsible for the majority of attacks in Eastern Afghanistan, has nothing to do with Pakistan.

Hey LET is declared terrorists, ISI still maintians contact,so moot point

Obama lied calling Raymond Davis a diplomat. The Iraq WMDs was a lie as well. Along with countless other official lies.

coming from you guys... you sent NLI in kargil and called them mujahhideen and you are calling others liars... funny

They were the ones that were armed & equipped by the CIA, they had been the CIA's blue eyed boys, so obviously, they put that money to good use.

so you are saying they are using 20 year old ammunition from the cia... damn and i recycle my ammo stock every 2 years...


what worries me is that people here actually believe that ISI and pakistani estblishment is innocent and has nothing to do with taliban. Such delusions are treated as facts and US flags are burned on the streets. I wonder where are these ideologies headed to?

 

[53fd]

You still didnt answer my question clearly, you only play by the words. What is the difference between now and post 2014 in your position? secondly, about the bolded part, what makes it special that your efforts are not counted now but will give fruit later on.

The only position Pakistan has between now & 2014 is being careful, & not being profligate like the US has been in Afghanistan. Pakistan's efforts will be trying to facilitate talks between itself, the Taliban/other groups, the current Afghan regime, the NATO Forces. Pakistan's security concerns are one of the most important things in the Afghan peace process, as it is a nuclear armed country. And after all, Pakistan will be living with 'these elements' it is fighting right now post 2014 over a porous border. Pakistan does not enjoy any leverage with these groups: the only leverage Pakistan can think of having is not being on the bad side of these Afghan groups, so that they don't cause Pakistan trouble post 2014 across the porous border when the US/NATO troops leave. The ISI does not control these groups or their actions. In other words, Pakistan has to think hard & extremely carefully before it does anything, & it doesn't want to be in a situation where it has done 'damage beyond repair', & has to live with the consequences of that post 2014 when the troops leave.

 

[Ahmad]

The only position Pakistan has between now & 2014 is being careful, & not being profligate like the US has been in Afghanistan. After all, it will be living with 'these elements' it is fighting right now post 2014 over a porous border. Pakistan does not enjoy any leverage with these groups: the only leverage Pakistan can think of having is not being on the bad side of these Afghan groups, so that they don't cause Pakistan trouble post 2014 across the porous border when the US/NATO troops leave. The ISI does not control these groups or their actions. In other words, Pakistan has to think hard & extremely carefully before it does anything, & it doesn't want to be in a situation where it has done 'damage beyond repair', & has to live with the consequences of that post 2014 when the troops leave.

what you say was justified if Pakistan didnt allow these groups into its own soil.

 

[53fd]

Look up intercepts by US survellence between haqqanis and IS operatives.

Can you show me where this surveillance is? Did you see it yourself?

Hey LET is declared terrorists, ISI still maintians contact,so moot point

There is a difference between maintaining contact with groups, & supporting them. Even the CIA maintains contact with various militant groups.

coming from you guys... you sent NLI in kargil and called them mujahhideen and you are calling others liars... funny

We are talking about Afghanistan here. I know you don't know much about Afghanistan, but please, don't try to divert the thread. If you don't have anything useful to say, stop trying to derail the topic.

---------- Post added at 04:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

what you say was justified if Pakistan didnt allow these groups into its own soil.

There wasn't anything Pakistan could have done, it is a porous border, & that is just the way things are. Even the ETIM & the IMU moved their bases from Afghanistan to Pakistan's tribal areas. Similarly, the TTP, a Pakistani phenomena, moved their bases into Kunar, Afghanistan; & there wasn't anything that could be done about it.

 

[Ahmad]

There wasn't anything Pakistan could have done, it is a porous border, & that is just the way things are. Even the ETIM & the IMU moved their bases from Afghanistan to Pakistan's tribal areas. Similarly, the TTP, a Pakistani phenomena, moved their bases into Kunar, Afghanistan; & there wasn't anything that could be done about it.

There are 2 main difference between the TTP and Afghani Taliban:
1-The TTP is fighting us as well as you guys. While the Afghani Taliban are fighting us only even if they are based in your soil.
2-The TTP only managed to enter Afghanistan after things got worse back there, we didnt intentially let them, as a matter of fact we are fighting them.

 

[53fd]

There are 2 main difference between the TTP and Afghani Taliban:
1-The TTP is fighting us as well as you guys. While the Afghani Taliban are fighting us only even if they are based in your soil.

Afghan terrorists (not the TTP) have been killing Pakistani troops as well. The Pakistani troops are fighting the Afghan terrorists as well, but does not want things to go out of hand with them, because it has to deal with them across the porous border 2014, which is why the Pakistan Army is attacking the TTP harder than the Afghan terrorists. The Pakistan Army has fired many rockets into Nangarhar & other Afghan provinces where the TTP are not present, only Afghan terrorists are.

The TTP has for most part, not attacked the Afghan people (only in rare cases), whereas their attacks have mostly been against the Pakistani troops & the Pakistani tribal people.

2-The TTP only managed to enter Afghanistan after things got worse back there, we didnt intentially let them, as a matter of fact we are fighting them.

False, the troops vacated their outposts, & let the TTP take over:

Taliban Occupy Abandoned US Outpost In Kunar -With Video at Pat Dollard

 

[fd24]

Firstly R.I.P. to the innocent people that have lost lives and loved ones. It is a sheer outrage that humans can do this to each other - simply defies everything.
Secondly Ahmad - I sense from your posts that you are holding Pakistan responsible or partly responsible for Afghanistani misgivings. Stand back for a second. Which country has taken nearly 10 million refugees? Which country has lost 10s of thousand lives? Which country is being constantly grilled in the international field for actions in Afghanistan?
Why dont we look at the Afghanistani leaders for a start - even the Americans are telling the world what Karzai is. They put the puppet government in then have the audacity to call him a muppet? Karzai is sending millions to UAE to purchase property. These millions belong to Afghanistan. Before blaming Pakistan my friend - i suggest you look at Kabul and your own fanctions and so called leaders. Im sorry but one must look at your own superstars before criticising anything externally.

 

[MilSpec]

Can you show me where this surveillance is? Did you see it yourself?

what difference will it make ... i'll give you some link you will say i dont believe americans.. british .. zionist and similar bs

There is a difference between maintaining contact with groups, & supporting them. Even the CIA maintains contact with various militant groups.

you just provide your contacts with intel, medivac, air lift, material and logistical aid... that just maintaing good relation thats not support right? remember airlift of evil or was that western propoganda

We are talking about Afghanistan here. I know you don't know much about Afghanistan, but please, don't try to divert the thread. If you don't have anything useful to say, stop trying to derail the topic.
mr haider, I have never claimed to be an expert, but i think you started digressing pretty early by bringing in raymond davis and wmd, and started accusing the entire free world of debauchery and deceit. These acquisition coming from a country whose foriegn policy uses asymmetric warfare by using infiltrators and tribal clans as early as 1948, it just seems ridiculous.

Pakistan has been constantly supporting violence against Afghanistan, the issue at hand is not about proving pakistani connection or accusing pakistan of state sponsored terrorism. the real problem is convince pakistan to abandon its support and join the process to rebuild Afghanistan m and not rebuilding taliban

 

[MilSpec]

Firstly R.I.P. to the innocent people that have lost lives and loved ones. It is a sheer outrage that humans can do this to each other - simply defies everything.
Secondly Ahmad - I sense from your posts that you are holding Pakistan responsible or partly responsible for Afghanistani misgivings. Stand back for a second. Which country has taken nearly 10 million refugees? Which country has lost 10s of thousand lives? Which country is being constantly grilled in the international field for actions in Afghanistan?
Why dont we look at the Afghanistani leaders for a start - even the Americans are telling the world what Karzai is. They put the puppet government in then have the audacity to call him a muppet? Karzai is sending millions to UAE to purchase property. These millions belong to Afghanistan. Before blaming Pakistan my friend - i suggest you look at Kabul and your own fanctions and so called leaders. Im sorry but one must look at your own superstars before criticising anything externally.

Shouldn't we also ask,

Who aided recognized and promoted the taliban regime,

Who was responsible for assassination of ahmed shah massoud

who conducted the airlift of evil

who indoctrinated the afghan refugees in madarsas

who provided shelter to top AQ leadership

who is still providing arms and ammunition to afghan taliban

who is blocking NATO supply routes

who watched and stood beside mullah omar when the entire Afghanistan was being pushed into dark ages

 

[Ahmad]

Afghan terrorists (not the TTP) have been killing Pakistani troops as well. The Pakistani troops are fighting the Afghan terrorists as well, but does not want things to go out of hand with them, because it has to deal with them across the porous border 2014, which is why the Pakistan Army is attacking the TTP harder than the Afghan terrorists. The Pakistan Army has fired many rockets into Nangarhar & other Afghan provinces where the TTP are not present, only Afghan terrorists are.

i cant understand this, you are scared of the Afghani taliban and are doing nohting against them, but take the fight against the TTP, despite the fact that both of them are as brutal and have the same idieas.

The TTP has for most part, not attacked the Afghan people (only in rare cases), whereas their attacks have mostly been against the Pakistani troops & the Pakistani tribal people.

The TTP guys and other related groups have long had their hands wet in our blood even before 2001

False, the troops vacated their outposts, & let the TTP take over:

Taliban Occupy Abandoned US Outpost In Kunar -With Video at Pat Dollard

i am sure these things happen in wars, but i can give you many recent examples that there has been an ongoig fight agaist them.

 

[53fd]

you just provide your contacts with intel, medivac, air lift, material and logistical aid... that just maintaing good relation thats not support right?

If that is true, why are these groups killing Pakistani troops & intelligence personnel everyday? There have been many attacks from Afghan terrorists (not TTP) against the Pakistani troops. Why has the Pakistani Army launched hundreds of missile strikes in Nangarhar & other Afghan provinces where there is no TTP presence, only Afghan militants presence? There is definitely something wrong with your logic.

mr haider, I have never claimed to be an expert,

Case closed. Maybe you should let the experts on Afghanistan Pakistan do the talking here.