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Women prove themselves in grueling Army course

jhungary

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LAKE OF THE OZARKS, Mo. – The air temperature was barely above freezing and snow clung to the banks of the lake when Army 1st Lt. Ashley Miller plunged into the inky waters.

Dragging packs weighing about 40 pounds each, Miller and other students from the Army's legendary Sapper Leader Course for combat engineers began swimming for the opposite shore. Instructors on jet skis buzzed around the swimmers, stirring up the placid waters to simulate the rough seas they might encounter in a combat mission.

Miller, 24, a slightly built West Point graduate, didn't stand out despite being the only woman among several dozen men struggling through one of the military's most physically demanding courses. For more than a decade, the Army has quietly allowed women to take this course, putting them through the same training as the men.

For the nation, the issue of allowing women into ground combat jobs, such as infantry, is a highly charged and emotional issue that riles politicians and revives well-worn arguments for and against a change. Not so here, far from the podiums and cable news shows, where small numbers of women have been proving themselves physically capable for years.

"Do you have what it takes? If you can prove that, regardless of gender, then it doesn't really matter," Miller said later as dusk descended and storm clouds gathered over the lake.

Through much of U.S. history, women have been exposed to combat — even more so in the last generation of warfare, in the likes of Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, the American casualty list is laced with the names of these fallen.

Until this year, they have been banned from ground combat jobs that require physical strength and endurance that test even the most robust combatant. In a historic shift that could open up hundreds of thousands of jobs to women, the Pentagon in January overturned its ban on women in ground combat jobs.
Since that order, the services have scrambled to develop physical standards that would apply to both genders. The Pentagon's action has brought scrutiny to this school for clues it may provide about integrating women into ground combat jobs.

For those skeptical of integration and how it might affect unit cohesion and effectiveness, the results might be surprising. The integration of women here caused barely a ripple, officers say.

"The answer ... is nothing happened with the course," said Army Brig. Gen. Peter DeLuca, commandant of the Army Engineer School.

"The fact that we didn't change the training standard is what has made it frankly so successful," he said. "It's accepted by everybody."

Burly instructors who have made no concessions to female students are among the biggest believers in equal opportunity, DeLuca said. They have learned to ignore gender as they watched women prove themselves under the toughest conditions.

"As long as there is not favoritism given to gender, it will work," said Master Sgt. Jerimiah Gan, the chief instructor.

"That's a sapper," Gan said, jabbing a finger toward Miller, who was leaning over her rucksack as she attempted to waterproof it in the required 10 minutes. "I don't see her as a female."

"Sapper," a military term with a centuries-old pedigree, is loosely described as small teams of combat engineers who can move through the toughest terrain to blow up obstacles or clear mines.

Though the sapper school's training of women has become a sort of social experiment, it wasn't designed to be. It was opened to women in 1999 because these soldiers were already allowed into the engineering field, and the Army simply concluded that all junior leaders — men and women — should be given an opportunity to attend the elite course.

In the ensuing 14 years, 55 women have graduated from the course out of 147 who have attended. Marine Capt. Katie Neff, 28, graduated No. 1 among all students in a class last summer.

Only a small number of women have volunteered for the school. Though their graduation rate started out lower, it's now roughly the same as men's: about 50%.

sapper00001-4_3.jpg

1st Lt. Ashley Miller

The small number of women who come here suggests women might not be clamoring to join combat arms fields. Miller said that though she's not interested in the infantry, she did seek out sapper school to become a better engineer platoon leader.

The class combines the physical challenges with course work on minefield clearing and demolition techniques. The idea is to create engineering teams able to keep up with front-line infantry units. Even so, it's viewed as a good test of what women can do.

"Any woman who tabs in sapper school can tab in Ranger School," Gan said, referring to graduation.

Women prove themselves in grueling Army course

for those who don't know.

Army Sapper School is a pre-req for EOD unit, an Army Special Force unit in the US Army. And soldier who passed Sapper school would thereby authorized to wear "SAPPER" tab on his/her shoulder as a regonition of achievement. The Army Sapper school would also be the in-road that leads to Ranger School, you have to either passed the Airborne School or Sapper School to attend Ranger School. And the US Army Ranger School would then served to potential US Special Force command entrant

I am a former attendee of US Army Ranger School myself and i can attested to how tough you have to be in the Ranger School, which is Lt Miller is heading at the moment.
 
Female Marines Don't Have to Pass Pull-Up Test, For Now | TIME.com

Marines Postpone Pull-Up Requirement for Female Recruits
After more than half fail test, the Marine Corps struggles to find fair fitness test for women pursuing combat jobs

By Eliana Dockterman @edocktermanJan. 02, 2014
163143919.jpg

Scott Olson / Getty Images
Marine Recruit Haley Evans from St Louis, Missouri stands in formation during boot camp February 27, 2013 at MCRD Parris Island, South Carolina.

More than half of the women in the Marines’ boot camp cannot complete three pull-ups, the minimum requirement for the New Year. The issue has forced the Marine Corps to delay the prerequisite as it tries to integrate thousands of women into combat roles by 2016, the Associated Press reports.

The delay has prompted some to question whether women have the physical strength to take on military jobs traditionally reserved for men. The Marines argue that pull-ups require the same muscular strength necessary to carry munitions, climb walls and perform other common military tasks.

But Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos wants training officials to “continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed,” Capt. Maureen Krebs, a Marine spokeswoman, told the Associated Press on Thursday.

For now, women will be able to choose whether their upper-body strength is graded on the pull-ups or a 15-second-minimum flexed-arm hang.

[Fox News]



Read more: Female Marines Don't Have to Pass Pull-Up Test, For Now | TIME.comFemale Marines Don't Have to Pass Pull-Up Test, For Now | TIME.com
 
Female Marines Don't Have to Pass Pull-Up Test, For Now | TIME.com

Marines Postpone Pull-Up Requirement for Female Recruits
After more than half fail test, the Marine Corps struggles to find fair fitness test for women pursuing combat jobs

By Eliana Dockterman @edocktermanJan. 02, 2014
163143919.jpg

Scott Olson / Getty Images
Marine Recruit Haley Evans from St Louis, Missouri stands in formation during boot camp February 27, 2013 at MCRD Parris Island, South Carolina.

More than half of the women in the Marines’ boot camp cannot complete three pull-ups, the minimum requirement for the New Year. The issue has forced the Marine Corps to delay the prerequisite as it tries to integrate thousands of women into combat roles by 2016, the Associated Press reports.

The delay has prompted some to question whether women have the physical strength to take on military jobs traditionally reserved for men. The Marines argue that pull-ups require the same muscular strength necessary to carry munitions, climb walls and perform other common military tasks.

But Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos wants training officials to “continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed,” Capt. Maureen Krebs, a Marine spokeswoman, told the Associated Press on Thursday.

For now, women will be able to choose whether their upper-body strength is graded on the pull-ups or a 15-second-minimum flexed-arm hang.

[Fox News]



Read more: Female Marines Don't Have to Pass Pull-Up Test, For Now | TIME.comFemale Marines Don't Have to Pass Pull-Up Test, For Now | TIME.com

old news. This has already been posted

As i said at that thread, i am all for opening door for the Women in the military, as long as they have the same deal with us.

So what if those 55% cannot do pull up?? Let those 45% be equal then.

No idea why you post this here
 
The lean and mean fighting machine....

Lowering Standards for Female Marines Is Not Gender Equality - The Daily Beast

The Marines pull-up controversy: An unexpected battle in the gender wars - The Washington Post

US Marines postpone fitness rule after most female recruits fail to do three pull-ups - Telegraph

US Marines postpone fitness rule after most female recruits fail to do three pull-ups
More than 50 per cent of women at boot camp could not meet a new minimum requirement due to go into effect in 2014
The US Marine Corps has delayed a physical fitness requirement for women after more than half of female troops at boot camp couldn't do three pullups Photo: ALAMY

By Hannah Strange, agencies

10:34AM GMT 03 Jan 2014


Video: Watch Major Ann Bernard explain how to do a pull-up, Marine Corps-style

Video: Watch one female marine achieve her goal of 20 pull-ups

The US Marine Corps has scrapped a new fitness requirement for female recruits after more than half of them proved unable to do three pull-ups, rekindling the debate over the suitability of women for frontline military roles.

In November 2012, the Marine Corps gave women one year to master the move ahead of a three pull-up requirement to come into force in January 2014. One of the Marines' most famous female bodybuilders, Ann Bernard, presented a training video explaining how to pull off an expert pull-up, Marine Corps style, and recruits began video blogging their efforts towards the new goal.

But just two days into the new year, officers revealed that 55 per cent of women at the Marine Corps' boot camp on South Carolina's Parris Island still fell short of the three pull-up minimum. Amid concern that the rule could lead to losses of female Marines and potential recruits, the requirement has been postponed indefinitely, they announced.

Related Articles
The commandant of the Marine Corps, General James Amos, "has decided that Training and Education Command will continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed," spokeswoman Captain Maureen Krebs said in a statement.

In the meantime, female Marines are to return to a less-demanding "flexed arm hang" - which requires them to hold their chin above a bar.

But the move has added fuel to the already fractious debate over women in the military, as the Marine Corps and the Army prepare to open all combat jobs to women by 2016.

Some critics say physical requirements should not be watered down for female troops, and that upper body strength is key for roles which might require lifting of heavy equipment or fallen comrades.

Some male military bloggers suggested women should not be held to lower standards in the name of political correctness.

"I don't ever remember a single male Marine in the fleet or support unit who could only do three pullups," wrote blogger Ultimaratioregis.

"The physical disparity between an average male Marine and female Marine is gigantic."

The blogger said that for infantry and other combat teams, physical strength was "a matter of life or death for the unit and the individuals in it".

Some female Marines expressed similar views, suggesting it was patronising to weaken the physical requirements for women and that those who fell short simply had to up their efforts or accept failure.

Jeannette Haynie, a female Marine reservist, wrote in July that she could not do three pullups but argued the Corps should stick to the tough rule.

"Stick to the standard, keep the expectations high. Force us all, male and female, to hoist ourselves up to that bar," she wrote on a blog at the US Naval Institute.

The physical fitness standards are supposed to reflect the strength required in a battlefield scenario, including lifting heavy ammunition, equipment or wounded comrades.

Male Marines have to perform 20 pullups to get a maximum score on their fitness test, but their female equivalents only have to pull their weight up eight times to earn the same result.

"The commandant has no intent to introduce a standard that would negatively affect the current status of female Marines or their ability to continue serving in the Marine Corps," Captain Krebs said.

In November, three women graduated for the first time from the Marine Corps gruelling infantry training course and officials said no rules were relaxed for the female troops.

Women also have been invited to enroll in infantry officer training, but no woman has successfully completed the course so far.
 
The lean and mean fighting machine....

Lowering Standards for Female Marines Is Not Gender Equality - The Daily Beast

The Marines pull-up controversy: An unexpected battle in the gender wars - The Washington Post

US Marines postpone fitness rule after most female recruits fail to do three pull-ups - Telegraph

US Marines postpone fitness rule after most female recruits fail to do three pull-ups
More than 50 per cent of women at boot camp could not meet a new minimum requirement due to go into effect in 2014
The US Marine Corps has delayed a physical fitness requirement for women after more than half of female troops at boot camp couldn't do three pullups Photo: ALAMY

By Hannah Strange, agencies

10:34AM GMT 03 Jan 2014


Video: Watch Major Ann Bernard explain how to do a pull-up, Marine Corps-style

Video: Watch one female marine achieve her goal of 20 pull-ups

The US Marine Corps has scrapped a new fitness requirement for female recruits after more than half of them proved unable to do three pull-ups, rekindling the debate over the suitability of women for frontline military roles.

In November 2012, the Marine Corps gave women one year to master the move ahead of a three pull-up requirement to come into force in January 2014. One of the Marines' most famous female bodybuilders, Ann Bernard, presented a training video explaining how to pull off an expert pull-up, Marine Corps style, and recruits began video blogging their efforts towards the new goal.

But just two days into the new year, officers revealed that 55 per cent of women at the Marine Corps' boot camp on South Carolina's Parris Island still fell short of the three pull-up minimum. Amid concern that the rule could lead to losses of female Marines and potential recruits, the requirement has been postponed indefinitely, they announced.

Related Articles
The commandant of the Marine Corps, General James Amos, "has decided that Training and Education Command will continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed," spokeswoman Captain Maureen Krebs said in a statement.

In the meantime, female Marines are to return to a less-demanding "flexed arm hang" - which requires them to hold their chin above a bar.

But the move has added fuel to the already fractious debate over women in the military, as the Marine Corps and the Army prepare to open all combat jobs to women by 2016.

Some critics say physical requirements should not be watered down for female troops, and that upper body strength is key for roles which might require lifting of heavy equipment or fallen comrades.

Some male military bloggers suggested women should not be held to lower standards in the name of political correctness.

"I don't ever remember a single male Marine in the fleet or support unit who could only do three pullups," wrote blogger Ultimaratioregis.

"The physical disparity between an average male Marine and female Marine is gigantic."

The blogger said that for infantry and other combat teams, physical strength was "a matter of life or death for the unit and the individuals in it".

Some female Marines expressed similar views, suggesting it was patronising to weaken the physical requirements for women and that those who fell short simply had to up their efforts or accept failure.

Jeannette Haynie, a female Marine reservist, wrote in July that she could not do three pullups but argued the Corps should stick to the tough rule.

"Stick to the standard, keep the expectations high. Force us all, male and female, to hoist ourselves up to that bar," she wrote on a blog at the US Naval Institute.

The physical fitness standards are supposed to reflect the strength required in a battlefield scenario, including lifting heavy ammunition, equipment or wounded comrades.

Male Marines have to perform 20 pullups to get a maximum score on their fitness test, but their female equivalents only have to pull their weight up eight times to earn the same result.

"The commandant has no intent to introduce a standard that would negatively affect the current status of female Marines or their ability to continue serving in the Marine Corps," Captain Krebs said.

In November, three women graduated for the first time from the Marine Corps gruelling infantry training course and officials said no rules were relaxed for the female troops.

Women also have been invited to enroll in infantry officer training, but no woman has successfully completed the course so far.

Keep posting the same news twice does not mean anything, 55% fail, that means 45% passed, so what is the problem if we allow those 45% to be equal?

I wonder how many pull up you can do before you start critizing other, if you can't do even one, then wasn't you ever worse than the girl?

Lol

You're a woman @jhungary?:-)

@elis, yeah, I am your mother...
 
old news. This has already been posted

As i said at that thread, i am all for opening door for the Women in the military, as long as they have the same deal with us.

So what if those 55% cannot do pull up?? Let those 45% be equal then.

No idea why you post this here

Can they also fulfill all Combat Arms requirements. Pack marches and so on. I doubt it.
 
Can they also fulfill all Combat Arms requirements. Pack marches and so on. I doubt it.

Basically, the PT test is a go-no go test. Which is done before you join a particular branch (or MOS as what we called in the US Army)

Now i don't really know (Or sure) what other branches do, in the Army, you take a PT test and you have a PT score (APFT), full mark is 300 (3 tests, 100@) and each MOS would require a different score.

Now, say if you want to go SF, you will need 300, and for artillerymen, it need say 240. So you can apply to different branch according to the score you have.

Once you settled the score and you enlisted in that MOS, then the training begin. Pack march started there and all the nitty gritty stuff start throw at you there.

So, to answer your question, passing PT test does not guarantee you passing off the MOS, but once a soldier (Male or Female) Passing off a certain MOS, they then fullfill the combat requirment for that component.

It's very confusing ........
 
Keep posting the same news twice does not mean anything, 55% fail, that means 45% passed, so what is the problem if we allow those 45% to be equal?

I wonder how many pull up you can do before you start critizing other, if you can't do even one, then wasn't you ever worse than the girl?

Lol



@elis, yeah, I am your mother...
The other %45 probably could easily kick his ***. That is why he has to post the same news over and over and over and over...
 
The other %45 probably could easily kick his ***. That is why he has to post the same news over and over and over and over...

I reckon the 55% is more than enough to kick his ***....

Hell, i think even our reject is enough, lol
 
old news. This has already been posted

As i said at that thread, i am all for opening door for the Women in the military, as long as they have the same deal with us.

So what if those 55% cannot do pull up?? Let those 45% be equal then.

No idea why you post this here
Again you criticizing for nothing. You're good at declaring that something is irregular

I hope you respect what you say
 
@armchairPrivate - I bet Inuit women are as sturdy & physically capable as Inuit men ? :azn:

Some of the women from Pakistan's Northern Areas where the life is hard & the topography doesn't help either with higher altitudes & pretty depressing infrastructure most of the women from up there would put even the best conditioned men from down here in the plains - where I live - to shame ! :ashamed:
 
@Armstrong Very True. Our women are as sturdy as oxen. You can't find more equality anywhere than here.

BUT can't say the same for the US women. Their pioneering spirits have diminished significantly since the invention of motor vehicles, shopping malls and KFC.
 
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