With Panama Leaks looming large on Nawaz, will Shehbaz be our next PM?

[VCheng]

Sir there's no solution? For how long we are keep gonna talk about it?

Considering what we have done for the last 70 years, what do you think is the answer? Honestly speaking.

 

[Moonlight]

Considering what we have done for the last 70 years, what do you think is the answer? Honestly speaking.

But we have to take the step now. Past should not stop us to take the first step. Nai? I mean yes if the government is corrupt so are we as a nation are failing to do what we are supposed to as nation. Still an initiative is needed. Mistakes done in pasts are lessons for future. Not obstacles to move forward.

 

[Spectre]

May be the problem lies with the people themselves?

We can fault them when they are given actual choices and then make bad ones out of poor judgement. One nothing works (specific to India and maybe Pakistan) without corruption in high places why should I blame people for working with the corrupt system to get their job done? I have always maintained that the change should come from the top! Common man working hard to support his family on bare minimum standards does not have it in him to be a martyr.

Tell me when has an uprising or grass root movement ever bought sustainable change? All the revolutions ended up making the situation worse after the initial euphoria. The real change comes when there is a consensus decision amongst the prime movers to make a change.

 

[VCheng]

But we have to take the step now. Past should not stop us to take the first step. Nai? I mean yes if the government is corrupt so are we as a nation are failing to do what we are supposed to as nation. Still an initiative is needed. Mistakes done in pasts are lessons for future. Not obstacles to move forward.

But you and I have left the country. It is up to the people still there who must decide whatever steps they may wish to make. We can help only in a limited fashion from the sidelines.

We can fault them when they are given actual choices and then make bad ones out of poor judgement. One nothing works (specific to India and maybe Pakistan) without corruption in high places why should I blame people for working with the corrupt system to get their job done? I have always maintained that the change should come from the top! Common man working hard to support his family on bare minimum standards does not have it in him to be a martyr.

Tell me when has an uprising or grass root movement ever bought sustainable change? All the revolutions ended up making the situation worse after the initial euphoria. The real change comes when there is a consensus decision amongst the prime movers to make a change.

True change always goes from the bottom up, not top down.

 

[Spectre]

But you and I have left the country. It is up to the people still there who must decide whatever steps they may wish to make. We can help only in a limited fashion from the sidelines.



True change always goes from the bottom up, not top down.

We can agree to disagree or may be you can direct me to some statistical study done.

 

[xyxmt]

what else someone would expect from a noora like you.

Imran says Nawaz and Shahbaz are currupt.and imran is brainless
Imran says Nawaz and Shahbaz looted our money. imran is brainless
Imran says its better to spend on people rather than metros and roads. imran is brainless
Imran says make our institutions free from political influence. Imran is brainless

hey if you like Imran thats what matters maan, you dont need to give me any false positives

 

[VCheng]

We can agree to disagree or may be you can direct me to some statistical study done.

It is not a matter of statistical study in this case, Sir. How do nations change and progress (and decline)? This is more of a social analysis question.

 

[Spectre]

It is not a matter of statistical study in this case, Sir. How do nations change and progress (and decline)? This is more of a social analysis question.

Indeed it is. Most people have no control or influence except on their immediate family, they live and die as a replaceable cog in the machine. Issac Asimov in his Foundation series - ponders over the very matter we are debating in great detail.

Even collectively the society is entirely predictable - the same old patterns of rise, plateau and decay are observable with slight variations in timelines. This itself is a major indicator that mob has little to none contributions to make simply because they are trained to be function in their limited scope. However there have always been a select few mavericks who have managed to defy expectation individually and a group of them together working will change the course of their society.

This is how new powers are born and old ones die.

 

[VCheng]

Indeed it is. Most people have no control or influence except on their immediate family, they live and die as a replaceable cog in the machine. Issac Asimov in his Foundation series - ponders over the very matter we are debating in great detail.

Even collectively the society is entirely predictable - the same old patterns of rise, plateau and decay are observable with slight variations in timelines. This itself is a major indicator that mob has little to none contributions to make simply because they are trained to be function in their limited scope. However there have always been a select few mavericks who have managed to defy expectation individually and a group of them together working will change the course of their society.

This is how new powers are born and old ones die.

Sometimes, these much-longed for mavericks turn out to be duds like IK.

 

[Sky lord]

Indeed it is. Most people have no control or influence except on their immediate family, they live and die as a replaceable cog in the machine. Issac Asimov in his Foundation series - ponders over the very matter we are debating in great detail.

Even collectively the society is entirely predictable - the same old patterns of rise, plateau and decay are observable with slight variations in timelines. This itself is a major indicator that mob has little to none contributions to make simply because they are trained to be function in their limited scope. However there have always been a select few mavericks who have managed to defy expectation individually and a group of them together working will change the course of their society.

This is how new powers are born and old ones die.

With respect sir, if I remember the Foundation series correctly, large groups of humans function in predictable fashion but can be manipulated into certain paths - isn't that what the Foundation group was doing - manipulating to achieve a peaceful society?

The manipulation was done through inserting small ideas or actions and making small deletions.

Ideas about better ordered societies are coming into our own culture thick and fast as people travel and see for themselves and through the media. Isn't this the catalyst required for eventual long term change in our own societies?

 

[Spectre]

With respect sir, if I remember the Foundation series correctly, large groups of humans function in predictable fashion but can be manipulated into certain paths - isn't that what the Foundation group was doing - manipulating to achieve a peaceful society?

The manipulation was done through inserting small ideas or actions and making small deletions.

Ideas about better ordered societies are coming into our own culture thick and fast as people travel and see for themselves and through the media. Isn't this the catalyst required for eventual long term change in our own societies?

Well manipulation is indeed happening, that was my starting premise. People are been given limited choices. The difference is that instead of a benign selfless manipulator working for the common good, we have group of self serving interests doing the manipulation. In essence the mob is being used as a tool to serve the interests of the select few. The enlightenment happening is in my opinion a false awakening.

Just for a moment consider - one of greatest use of information in current times to bring change was in case of Arab spring. Removing corrupt dictators to achieve a true democracy, look where we are - Dictators were removed and what is left is chaos and ashes. Look at Egypt..I am sure Sisi is the embodiment is exactly what people wanted they removed Mobarak.

The sad fact is that our society needs fodder, the exploitable masses who will do what they are told, who will slave with no expectations, who will do the mundane tasks - be our cooks, maids, farmers, janitors etc. In a truly enlightened society every one will strive for the highest possible stature and standard of living. Have you considered the implications of 7 Billion folks living like Scandinavians? Our earth simply cannot sustain.

Sometimes, these much-longed for mavericks turn out to be duds like IK.

Yeah. No doubt but for every 1000 IK may be you will get a Gandhi or Jinnah

 

[Erroroverload]

hey if you like Imran thats what matters maan, you dont need to give me any false positives

Good Luck if u think this as false positve

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

That is why I like the Chinese 1 Party system

Eric X. Li: A tale of two political systems | TED Talk | TED.com
(Video explains some shining point for Chinese government system)


30 Stable social workers make all national policies , and they get to the position in 30 years of social work , and after serving all levels (Ground level, village level, city level etc)

 

[Sky lord]

Well manipulation is indeed happening, that was my starting premise. People are been given limited choices. The difference is that instead of a benign selfless manipulator working for the common good, we have group of self serving interests doing the manipulation. In essence the mob is being used as a tool to serve the interests of the select few. The enlightenment happening is in my opinion a false awakening.

Just for a moment consider - one of greatest use of information in current times to bring change was in case of Arab spring. Removing corrupt dictators to achieve a true democracy, look where we are - Dictators were removed and what is left is chaos and ashes. Look at Egypt..I am sure Sisi is the embodiment is exactly what people wanted they removed Mobarak.

The sad fact is that our society needs fodder, the exploitable masses who will do what they are told, who will slave with no expectations, who will do the mundane tasks - be our cooks, maids, farmers, janitors etc. In a truly enlightened society every one will strive for the highest possible stature and standard of living. Have you considered the implications of 7 Billion folks living like Scandinavians? Our earth simply cannot sustain.

Manipulation depends on asymmetry of access to information does it not?

One of the huge changes brought about by the internet is how much more democratic access to information has become. Societies that censor access to information and cultures that lack the ability to absorb modern ideas will be easier to manipulate.

Arab culture and population is much more resistant to modernity than say Japanese. Egyptians were easily manipulated because modernity and scientific thought had been internalized only by a thin skin of the population. The country has also been under heavy censorship for a long time. The Japanese are less easily manipulated.

I would say the single biggest problem in our part of the world, ( after lack of access to information either through poverty or illiteracy ) is the phenomenon of "paid news" and paid for journalists. I am totally surprised that the general public is not more angry about it. If we do not know whether a piece of news is genuine or an advertisement then it creates huge asymmetry and a huge opportunity to manipulate the public.

 

[iPhone]

There is no need for shehbaz sharif to becoming prime minister as nawaz sharif is still here and will complete his term.

The whole off-shore business is being blown out of proportion and Imran is trying to milk the situation further his agenda. Despicable!