Wing Reinforcement Makes Thunder More Lethal !

[MastanKhan]

IDK, thats a bold claim with nothing to back it up + the CM400AKG has fins larger than those of the bags. +the cm400akg is straight, whereas the bag curves inward at the end to prevent a ground strike.

Hi,

The AVM in his interview clearly stated a single 400AKG on center point---IDK where you guys are coming up with this.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Hi,

The AVM in his interview clearly stated a single 400AKG on center point---IDK where you guys are coming up with this.

Another baseless rants by PROFFESIONAL AERODYNAMICST, we have lots of pics of JFT flying with 2 CM-400AKG on both wings

 

[The Raven]

Wing root reinforcement was reported ages ago by messiach. Nothing new here. Pictures of the dorsal side clearly show the reinforcing strip of metal at the wing roots.

Yes, the wing reinforcement was actually performed by CAC, even before Block I aircraft went into full production. The reinforcement structure can be seen on the wing roots. Not sure why this is "news" all of a sudden.

 

[Windjammer]

Wing root reinforcement was reported ages ago by messiach. Nothing new here. Pictures of the dorsal side clearly show the reinforcing strip of metal at the wing roots.

Yes, the wing reinforcement was actually performed by CAC, even before Block I aircraft went into full production. The reinforcement structure can be seen on the wing roots. Not sure why this is "news" all of a sudden.

Even if it were true, did you guys follow up on this or highlighted the obvious benefit of wing restructuring.
It's news because it's a major boost to the capabilities of the JF-17.....something that was until now exclusive to the F-16s.

 

[The Raven]

Even if it were true, did you guys follow up on this or highlighted the obvious benefit of wing restructuring.
It's news because it's a major boost to the capabilities of the JF-17.....something that was until now exclusive to the F-16s.

The wing strengthening has been there since Block I when the total payload was increased to around 4,500kg, so how is this a 'boost in capability' if the capability has been there since Block I?

 

[maverick1977]

Just get an engine with 70KN plus dry thrust and increase wing loading to 90 lbs per sq feet and JF17 will be an ammo truck... I can imagine block 3 has substaintial improvement in these terms, i still have to spend time on JF 17 block three thread, throwing it out there or folks to answer.

 

[Marker]

Most of PDF members are discussing the aerodynamic effect of weapon deployment stationed at wings of JF-17 aircraft.

Here are some interesting basic facts for your consumption:

1. Aircraft center of mass is situated on the fuselage centerline as per design.
2. During flight, aircraft is subject to number of aerodynamic forces - Weight, Lift, Drag and Thrust which control the aircraft attitude.
3. Due to faulty jettison of a wing drop tank, or deployment of a weapon from a wing pylon will result in following changes in aerodynamic forces.
A There will be shift in center of mass location towards the heavier wing. This will increase stress on the heavier wing root. Furthermore, if the shift is also along the fuselage centerline than it may cause pitching attitude.
B The drag effect on cleaner wing will be reduced due to absence of the payload. This differential drag force will cause side-slip or yaw condition.
C Similarly, there will be more lift on the cleaner wing due to absence of the payload. This may result in rolling attitude.
4. However, these changes in attitude of aircraft can easily be controlled by using control surfaces – rudder, elevator and ailerons.
5. In fly by wire control system, asymmetric application of control surfaces is also possible which may include asymmetric application of leading edge and trailing edge flaps, elevators and ailerons.

Here is another interesting incident. The landing of one wing aircraft clearly reveals how aerodynamic forces work to stabilize the attitude of aircraft.

How an Israeli F-15 Eagle managed to land with one wing

On 1 May 1983, during an Israeli Air Force dissimilar air combat training session over the Negev, an F-15D Eagle (or Baz) collided with an A-4 Skyhawk. The pilot of the Skyhawk was automatically ejected and his aircraft disintegrated. The right wing of the Eagle was sheared off roughly 2 ft (60 cm) from the root. The crew of the two-seat training version F-15, pilot Ziv Nedivi and instructor Yehoar Gal, did not initially realize the extent of the damage, as fuel leaking profusely and vaporizing at the wing attachment was obscuring their view of the area where the wing once was.

The F-15 started rolling uncontrollably after the collision and the instructor ordered an ejection. Nedivi, who outranked the instructor, decided not to eject and attempted recovery by engaging the afterburner, and eventually regained control of the aircraft. He was able to maintain control because of the lift generated by the large areas of the fuselage, stabilators, and remaining wing. Diverting to Ramon Airbase, the F-15 landed at twice the normal speed to maintain the necessary lift, and its tailhook was torn off completely during the landing. Nedivi managed to bring his F-15 to a complete stop approximately 20 ft (6 m) from the end of the runway. He later told The History Channel, "it's highly likely that if I had seen it clearly I would have ejected, because it was obvious you couldn't really fly an airplane like that." He added, "Only when [McDonnell Douglas] later went to analyze it, they said, OK, the F-15 has a very wide [lifting] body; you fly fast enough and you're like a rocket. You don't need wings."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Negev_mid-air_collision

 

[CriticalThought]

Even if it were true, did you guys follow up on this or highlighted the obvious benefit of wing restructuring.
It's news because it's a major boost to the capabilities of the JF-17.....something that was until now exclusive to the F-16s.

Well, I'd argue that it has not been exclusive to F-16 ever since MK-84 got integrated on JF-17. I have taken this for granted for quite some time now. There are a few minor points that your post seems to hint at and I was trying to avoid prodding too much.

1. OP says PAC has performed wing root reinforcement. From the following post of @messiach

JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Chin pylon mostly will be used for pods but if needed assuming mk81/82 type can also be accommodated Nope Strictly for TGp With dual racks the JF-17 can carry 9 missiles/weapons for particular missions.. Max missiles are 6 with dual racks Max weapons are 9 or 13 free fall depending upon size

defence.pk

it is not clear where this work was done. We have always assumed the work is done in China. So you are implying that such a major technical work as wing root strengthening was done entirely in PAC? Because that would be very impressive.

2. OP seems to imply that MK-84 has only now become available on JF-17. Is this interpretation correct? Does this imply that REK has also become available for MK-84 only recently?

I dug into technical details:

JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Chin pylon mostly will be used for pods but if needed assuming mk81/82 type can also be accommodated Nope Strictly for TGp With dual racks the JF-17 can carry 9 missiles/weapons for particular missions.. Max missiles are 6 with dual racks Max weapons are 9 or 13 free fall depending upon size

defence.pk

but mostly took it for granted as something that had to happen sooner or later.

 

[The Raven]

Asymmetrical wing loadouts are quite common. Modern FCS can handle such scenarios.

 

[Windjammer]

The wing strengthening has been there since Block I when the total payload was increased to around 4,500kg, so how is this a 'boost in capability' if the capability has been there since Block I?

This wasn't the case always.

Up to 3,629 kg (8,001 lb) of ordnance, equipment, and fuel can be mounted under the hardpoints, two of which are on the wing-tips, four are under the wings and one is under the fuselage.

 

[MIRauf]

Is the Wing-Root hardening done referring to station 2 and 6 ? the outer wing pylons, not to be confused with wingtips.

 

[khanasifm]

This wasn't the case always.

Up to 3,629 kg (8,001 lb) of ordnance, equipment, and fuel can be mounted under the hardpoints, two of which are on the wing-tips, four are under the wings and one is under the fuselage.

Max external load now ~4300 kg and not 3600kg

max takeoff load now 13.5 Tons vs 12.4 in the past

End of story no need for drama and hypothesis or rumors and

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Hi,

The AVM in his interview clearly stated a single 400AKG on center point---IDK where you guys are coming up with this.

Where can you provide any link/ source and what about those pics that's shows JFT are flying with 2 400AKG on both wings, you delusional Mr professional

 

[Talon]

Hi,

You teaching me basics---? I have been teaching you kids for the last 15 years now and here you are talking about the basics---.

It is easier to say than show that stability can be maintained by trimming and auto pilot.

You kids like to talk without any PRINCIPAALS OF PHYSICS behind your claims. JF17 is a very small aircraft with a small wing area. Any shift in HEAVY weight closer to the fuselage---but away from it---or a sudden lack of weight on one side would put the aircraft in a non recoverable roll and dive and spin.

The delay is the death sentence---the moment the heavy missile is released on one side---the aircraft goes out of control instantly.



Son,

I have been teaching this forum about weapons for the past 15 years plus by now---. Don't give me flimsy excuses that you have overheard---.

Fuel management system does nothing in this case---the loss / shift of weight is too high.

Fuel management systems work when they have ample time to make the correction---and a large wing area. Over here there are only seconds and that is not enough and the wing is too small.

Baba G please calm down,no need to remind us of your old age each time and for Godsake till this date I haven't learnt anything from you on this forum,I have always seen you crying about your age and calling others Kids and making a healthy discussion controversial..

Firing AG missiles with delay is very very normal,if you think AG missiles are always fired in pair you don't know anything about fighter flying

As far as bombs like Mk84 are concerned I have never seen any being dropped in single profile,they are dropped always in pairs

OTH likes of GBU 24 can be launched in single profile

Both are heavy bombs but why the difference? Its just because both are used for different purposes and scenarios, usually with dumb bombs you will be dropping those over a single target in one run while in case of GBU 24 you can drop it over 2 different targets in one or even two runs,so issue is not the bomb type rather the scenario

Now if you think likes of MK 84 or GBU 24 aren't heavy or wont cause much issue for the aircraft in stabilization then let me tell you..even if you fire an AGM 88 from an F-16,which is much much lighter than the bombs discussed above,it causes a bit of stabilization issue for the aircraft and it can be easily overcame by putting the aircraft on AP or trimming..and same for GBU 24, aircraft can easily be balanced even if not dropped in pair

So please, correct your facts... Missiles and bombs can be dropped in single and pair profiles,it totally depends on the scenario you are flying in..

What I discussed in my initial post was not specifically meant for JF17.

Now coming to JF-17,can you tell me any AG missile operational on JF17 that falls under heavy class? A missile that if not dropped in pair will cause the aircraft to go in spins? If not then all this talk of yours is useless

Mk 84 is ops but as mentioned above it is usually dropped in pair

LGB equal to GBU 24 isnt operational on JF17 (as per my knowledge).GBU 12 is and it can easily be dropped from JF17 in single profile..

 

[Windjammer]

View attachment 690519

Max external load now ~4300 kg and not 3600kg

max takeoff load now 13.5 Tons vs 12.4 in the past

End of story no need for drama and hypothesis or rumors and

Magic word is now. !!