Will TSMC someday become an American company?

[Shotgunner51]

The US are helping Indians today like what they are helping China during 1980s.

US helping India perhaps, but helping China? No way. Foreign direct investment in China (Mainland) has always been dominated by Hong Kong accounting for 60-70% of all, Hong Kong investment employs 30 million jobs just in Guangdong alone at its peak. Followed by Singapore, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan making up the top five FDI investors to Mainland China.

If one wants to talk about China receiving ODA (Overseas Development Assistance) in the 1980's, the reality is 60% came from Japan.

The myth of so-called US or western investment, or "help", is complete bull crap, almost laughable.

 

[kankan326]

Legally speaking, it depends on Morris Chang, he and other primary stakeholders could be as American as Jensen Huang (NVIDIA), Lisa Su (AMD) or David Lam (Lam Research) and such. Tan Hock Eng (Broadcom) was almost compelled to become American if his complex legal restructuring didn't work out. The future of TSMC depends on how Beijing & Washington play the talent attraction game, Washington has been very good at this for decades, if Bezos lives in Cuba there's no Amazon, if Steve Jobs in Syria there's no Apple, if Musk stays in South Africa there's no Tela. But IMO Beijing is quite confident in winning TSMC eventually, well let's see how this unfold.

US weaponized socalled "American technologies" to sanction other countries. It never mentioned who made those American technologies. A big part of scientists and engineers involved in developing those "American technologies" are not Americans. The American technologies belong to the world. Some say US offered financial supports for developing those technologies. Don't forget US also reaps fortune from other countries through its dominance in currency and finance.

 

[Song Hong]

US could force a merger of Intel and TSMC.

 

[Shotgunner51]

They would desperately like to move production to India but unfortunately Indians are too incompetent. The Anglo and Brahmins finally settled on elevating large numbers of Indian elites to CEO and managers of big tech, as well as yearly hundredth of thousands of H1Bs.

Agree with you

 

[Song Hong]

Somehow, Chinese should congratulate themselves about these TSMC saga. Reason is top Indians are so integrated that they stay in US, and never return. While a lot of top Chinese return to China/Taiwan and help build the country.

This is the reason US hate Chinese engineers and scientists.

 

[INS_Vikrant]

One thing people don't realise here, TSMC (along with other Asian fab companies like samsung) relies pretty much entirely on chip making equipments imported from US and Europe, most particularly lithography machine from ASML. If West stop exporting them, both TSMC and Samsung fab unit would hit a major road block.

 

[Shotgunner51]

If West stop exporting them, both TSMC and Samsung fab unit would hit road block

IF that's the case, why US-based Intel or Global Foundries keep hitting roadblocks over the years? Perhaps they don't get those critical machinery exports as you said from the west? What's the logic, if any, behind your statement?

 

[Shotgunner51]

lithography machine from ASML

Lithography?

Like all fabs, TSMC's supply chain is heavily dominated by the Japanese in the 1980's, both materials (till even nowadays) and machinery. To break monopoly of Nikon lithography machine, Dr. Burn-Jeng Lin of TSMC invented Immersion Lithography tech and brought ASML to assemble the 193nm immersion lithography machine, three years ahead of Nikon's new products. Samsung and Intel all jumped in and invested heavily with this new tech, bringing along with their capital (buy ASML shares), purchase orders and manpower to develop this tech all the way to nowadays.

TSMC originally plan to use ArF immersion lithography all the way down. It was back when ASML was struggling with EUV, making slow progress on a questionable technology, they were looking for an early adopter to take the plunge and convince the industry that EUV was real. At the time, Samsung, TSMC and Intel were not signed up to EUV and viewed it very suspiciously. Nobody was willing to be the first to commit to it. Then Apple changed all that by telling TSMC it needed to do EUV, for better chip performance, and Apple would write a check for it. ASML got into a room with TSMC management and cut a deal, TSMC went from an EUV non-believer to a full on convert virtually over night. TSMC went from “never EUV” to its biggest customer and user (financed by Apple).

The cartel of TSMC, along with Samsung and perhaps Intel, can fund another ASML if needed to confront Nikon again, get that logic right.

ASML is the key to Intel’s Resurrection Just like ASML helped TSMC beat Intel - Semiwiki

-Intel's access to high-NA EUV tools may be their elixir of life -TSMC's EUV adoption helped it vault faltering Intel & Samsung -Maybe ASML should invest in Intel like Intel invested in ASML -Shoe is on the other foot- But cooperation helps chip industry Intel is dependent upon ASML for its...

semiwiki.com

 

[Beidou2020]

I’m more interested in seeing the development of SMIC with fully indigenous equipment.

Semiconductor industry (along with commercial aircraft industry) is America’s crown jewels in technology.

 

[Shotgunner51]

I’m more interested in seeing the development of SMIC with fully indigenous equipment.

SMIC like a Shanghai-funded startup founded and run by TSMC veterans, we wish they can replicate their success here. Supply chain will take sometime, so far not a single country has been able to dominate such a large ecosystem. Talents are always the key, like in recent Japan-Korea brawl (Japan cuts off semiconductor materials supplies to Korea) we saw Koreans turned to develop sourcing from China, it was a good opportunity to grow supply chain. One of my tenants is a typical example: He was sent to China after the Japan-Korea brawl and now heading a Sino-Korea JV in material R&D, a potential client of which will naturally be SMIC.

Funding-wise we are always ready (National Integrated Circuits Industry Development Investment Fund, and many others), China should just continue to bring talents in, no other magic formula.

 

[Zsari]

Looks like the Taiwanese don't want their technology to fall into China's hands and they're moving their assets abroad including techs.

Once TSMC moved to the US, the island's value will drop significantly. Looks like the US is abandoning the island, or at the least trying to minimize the consequences of it's lost.

 

[Beidou2020]

Once TSMC moved to the US, the island's value will drop significantly. Looks like the US is abandoning the island, or at the least trying to minimize the consequences of it's lost.

It could work the other way too.

It might allow the US crazies to be more belligerant since they don’t have to worry about chip supplies being disrupted.

 

[Leishangthem]

Indians are good engineers and some even made good CEOs. But they would never achieve what they did in if they stayed in India.

the quality and quantity are much inferior,indians are hopeless breed,a pitbull will not have the temperament of a GR though both are dogs.Humans are also built different. India would have been world power competing with US if Indians were so effective.

US helping India perhaps, but helping China? No way. Foreign direct investment in China (Mainland) has always been dominated by Hong Kong accounting for 60-70% of all, Hong Kong investment employs 30 million jobs just in Guangdong alone at its peak. Followed by Singapore, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan making up the top five FDI investors to Mainland China.

If one wants to talk about China receiving ODA (Overseas Development Assistance) in the 1980's, the reality is 60% came from Japan.

The myth of so-called US or western investment, or "help", is complete bull crap, almost laughable.

Japan single handled funded development of Korea ,China and Taiwan. They funded,provided knowhow and blueprint for the core base of development,industrialization,foreign policy ,planning , which are way more important than current FDI from any country,also china's other main investors are wealthy Chinese in Hongkong/Taiwan and Singapore ,those wealthy Chinese managed to siphon their wealth and business network outside China during cultural revolution,they later used their old link with their origin place to reinvest and magnify their wealth. US always tried to block China's growth and development,both politically and technologically.

 

[Paul2]

Do you seriously believe that? I am in the semicon manufacturing industry and stationed in a US fab. Intel is building up in New Mexico. Texas Instruments just bought the Utah site from Micron, and Micron is expanding in their Virginia site. There is no way the US can build or replicate any semicon product? I got no problems if you are anti-US, but do not be so stupid about it, especially when the facts are abundant to find. What a cringy comment...

Intel haven't had a new process in how many years? Micron the same. They have nothing to compete with Samsung 1X dies. I know they were big in LPDDR4 space, but Samsung is ahead with custom packages etc. How they will fare in the age of stacked dies? Nobody can tell now.

Intel, Micron now have Uncle Sam's money, but will it get them ahead by much? I don't think so.

1 Node disadvantage is dealable.
2 Node disadvantage leaves some chances for catch up.
3 or more? The history has no examples of somebody catching up from 3 nodes away.

And another matter, USA is simply running out of process RnD engineers. There are like few single digit thousand of them left, and it's an increasingly greying demographics. I haven't seen a single US process person younger than in his late forties. With most in fifties, and older.

Taiwan has hordes of process people ready to work for a salary of a burger flipper in USA. Salaries in semi space in Asia are really low, and that's why I didn't chose the industry.

 

[gambit]

Intel haven't had a new process in how many years? Micron the same. They have nothing to compete with Samsung 1X dies. I know they were big in LPDDR4 space, but Samsung is ahead with custom packages etc. How they will fare in the age of stacked dies? Nobody can tell now.

Intel, Micron now have Uncle Sam's money, but will it get them ahead by much? I don't think so.

1 Node disadvantage is dealable.
2 Node disadvantage leaves some chances for catch up.
3 or more? The history has no examples of somebody catching up from 3 nodes away.

And another matter, USA is simply running out of process RnD engineers. There are like few single digit thousand of them left, and it's an increasingly greying demographics. I haven't seen a single US process person younger than in his late forties. With most in fifties, and older.

Taiwan has hordes of process people ready to work for a salary of a burger flipper in USA. Salaries in semi space in Asia are really low, and that's why I didn't chose the industry.

I challenge you to explain to the forum how one company can be behind in node ship but is not behind in technology, and how another company can buy the latest process tools but will always be playing catch up. I have done my time in competitor products analyses, including putting their products under SEM and 'physical failure analysis' (PFA) and Big Sam is not ahead of Intel and just wee bit ahead of Micron.