Will IAF have an edge over PAF in advanced air weaponry?

[MastanKhan]

My friend procurement is not a easy thing a lot of factors come into play. every time we went for something good we had a strong resistance from uncle sam because India had good lobbyist, Example Senator Larry Pressler between 1983 to 1997 he went to India 27 times and after retirement he his Board of Director HAL and other Indian telecommunication companies. Every time PAF made a good decision there was resistance so we had to go towards china, I can only say that most of our F-6, FT-5 fleet even F-7 came free of coast. When it came to F-16s we had sent several pilots and a lot of engg and air men to Dover and then we established a work shop in sargodha for $25mil with upgrades in the shop the amount as of today stands 65 million $$.

Every time F-16 was engagged it came out victorious, The fighter was agile, maneuverable and fast and PAF loved it because it was a tested fighter. I don't know about you but once you fly it , You fall in love with it plus to much was already invested over the period of time. So PAF decided to stick to F-16s but other opportunities came along like the Gripen our pilots spent 2 months flying it including COAS Tanveer. It was easy to maintain and had the same capabilities as F-16. but again we thought that the engines in it we can get screwed there. Our pilots have flown Rafael, Mirage 2000, Eurofighter and all three planes were good enough Because of our engg and airmen working on F-16s have become so good that these other planes were no problem in handling the technology weather it was UK, French or South Africa. Now the biggest problem is that we do want to buy 4.5 gen planes but no money and US will not allow us to buy other fighters from another country with the money they are giving us every month on WOT. So we are basically screwed

Sir,

You are preaching to the choir----F 16 to a pakistani pilot was as if the plane was originally designed for them----it outperformed and outdid every other plane in the history of aviation and will continue to do so for awhile----but the problem with some of these beautiful women is that they also carry the extra baggage with them----the fatal attraction is so enticing and intimidating, that the whole of the airforce would be feeling like an orphan if we had taken a different route. This plane has ensnared us and entangled us with its form and function----it has taken the sanity out of our sense of reasoning and taken the clarity out of our thinking----we are totally mesmerized and hypnotized by this plane---we are consumed by the desire to own more and more of these at whatever cost to the national exchequer---.

The only time the fog clears the mind when we are close to a confrontation with india and we realize that we don't have enough of what we need---so we go and get the F 7 PG's----then we go and order FC 20's.

Sir----I can tell you through my personal experience----it is indeed so difficult to walk away from the one that you love so much---but indeed once you do that, the sense of liberation and smell of freedom is so sweet that it clears all the cobwebs and takes away that thinking " I can't live without you ".

Beauty is only skin deep----the beauty of the mirage 2000 was deep down to the bone.

 

[ironman]

My friend procurement is not a easy thing a lot of factors come into play. every time we went for something good we had a strong resistance from uncle sam because India had good lobbyist, Example Senator Larry Pressler between 1983 to 1997 he went to India 27 times and after retirement he his Board of Director HAL and other Indian telecommunication companies. Every time PAF made a good decision there was resistance so we had to go towards china, I can only say that most of our F-6, FT-5 fleet even F-7 came free of coast. When it came to F-16s we had sent several pilots and a lot of engg and air men to Dover and then we established a work shop in sargodha for $25mil with upgrades in the shop the amount as of today stands 65 million $$.

Every time F-16 was engagged it came out victorious, The fighter was agile, maneuverable and fast and PAF loved it because it was a tested fighter. I don't know about you but once you fly it , You fall in love with it plus to much was already invested over the period of time. So PAF decided to stick to F-16s but other opportunities came along like the Gripen our pilots spent 2 months flying it including COAS Tanveer. It was easy to maintain and had the same capabilities as F-16. but again we thought that the engines in it we can get screwed there. Our pilots have flown Rafael, Mirage 2000, Eurofighter and all three planes were good enough Because of our engg and airmen working on F-16s have become so good that these other planes were no problem in handling the technology weather it was UK, French or South Africa. Now the biggest problem is that we do want to buy 4.5 gen planes but no money and US will not allow us to buy other fighters from another country with the money they are giving us every month on WOT. So we are basically screwed

Sir,

You are preaching to the choir----F 16 to a pakistani pilot was as if the plane was originally designed for them----it outperformed and outdid every other plane in the history of aviation and will continue to do so for awhile----but the problem with some of these beautiful women is that they also carry the extra baggage with them----the fatal attraction is so enticing and intimidating, that the whole of the airforce would be feeling like an orphan if we had taken a different route. This plane has ensnared us and entangled us with its form and function----it has taken the sanity out of our sense of reasoning and taken the clarity out of our thinking----we are totally mesmerized and hypnotized by this plane---we are consumed by the desire to own more and more of these at whatever cost to the national exchequer---.

The only time the fog clears the mind when we are close to a confrontation with india and we realize that we don't have enough of what we need---so we go and get the F 7 PG's----then we go and order FC 20's.

Sir----I can tell you through my personal experience----it is indeed so difficult to walk away from the one that you love so much---but indeed once you do that, the sense of liberation and smell of freedom is so sweet that it clears all the cobwebs and takes away that thinking " I can't live without you ".

Beauty is only skin deep----the beauty of the mirage 2000 was deep down to the bone.

Hats off to you Guys...

 

[Jihad]

Hats off to you Guys...

No seriously, these respected seniors are the best of the best in my opinion, and their posts always touch a persons senses and their hearts in some way.

 

[wave69]

very well said mastankahn !!! you have sumrises the whole episode of F-16 and PAF !!! The only thing I will add is that it was always a one sided love affair.

 

[wave69]

Hello all,
My asssesement of this situation is that IAF will always maintain an EDGE on PAF, both interms of Aircraft and weapons systems. But there is no need to get pessimistic !!! The primary role of PAF is not to defeat much larger IAF but to put up a effective defensive fight !! The primary role of PAF is to keep IAF away from PA troops on the ground. IAF and India can go and indulge in whatever buying spree (30 Billion USD) by this year. or 300 billion by next year, In my opinion is IRRELEVANT !!! They know it well infact very well they can never cross in more than 30KM inside Pakistan, Forget about taking any PAK city !! That will invite more than many dozens of Nuclear strikes in India... starting with DELHI !! and iam not joking !! PAF is planning well given the resources and options avaliable to it. I have no doubt in my mind no matter what they are flying they will give the opposition one hell of fight... PAKISTAN ZINDABAAD !!!!

 

[blain2]

Hello all,
My asssesement of this situation is that IAF will always maintain an EDGE on PAF, both interms of Aircraft and weapons systems. But there is no need to get pessimistic !!! The primary role of PAF is not to defeat much larger IAF but to put up a effective defensive fight !! The primary role of PAF is to keep IAF away from PA troops on the ground. IAF and India can go and indulge in whatever buying spree (30 Billion USD) by this year. or 300 billion by next year, In my opinion is IRRELEVANT !!! They know it well infact very well they can never cross in more than 30KM inside Pakistan, Forget about taking any PAK city !! That will invite more than many dozens of Nuclear strikes in India... starting with DELHI !! and iam not joking !! PAF is planning well given the resources and options avaliable to it. I have no doubt in my mind no matter what they are flying they will give the opposition one hell of fight... PAKISTAN ZINDABAAD !!!!

Actually the primary role of the PAF is not one of keeping IAF away from PA troops on the ground. Supporting the sister services is a secondary option. The first and foremost role is to ensure the Air Defence of Pakistani airspace.

 

[LCA]

Pak F-16 not a worry for IAF



Wants 42 Fighter Squadrons To Retain Edge Over Islamabad, China

Bangalore: The IAF wants 42 fighter squadrons to retain the declining combat edge against Pakistan as well as maintain a strong dissuasive posture against China. The force, however, is not too perturbed about Pakistan’s F-16 fleet because it still retains a clear air superiority edge over it.
IAF, in fact, is confident of evolving into a true expeditionary aerospace power, especially with the force slated to get its first dedicated satellite by mid-2010, even though the progress may be gradual.
India, of course, is not happy with the US move to give additional 18-20 F-16s to Pakistan, apart from helping upgrade its existing fleet of these fighters, all in the name of bolstering its counter-terrorism capabilities.
At present, IAF is down to just 32-33 squadrons (each having 14 to 18 jets), which will further dip with older MiG variants being phased out before it begins to climb again with fresh inductions. “We will reach our sanctioned strength of 39.5 squadrons only by 2017, and then some more by 2020. The optimum squadron strength would be 42,’’ said Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major on Thursday.
The progressive induction of new Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons — 230 jets have been contracted from Russia in deals worth around $8.5 billion — and upgrades of the MiG-21 ‘Bison’, MiG-27ML and Jaguar fleets with new avionics and weapon systems has ensured that IAF continues to enjoy “a decisive combat edge’’ over PAF.
India has also signed a Rs 3,840-crore deal with Russia to upgrade its 69 MiG-29s by 2011 and a similar contract is on the anvil with France for the 51 Mirage-2000s of the IAF.
Then, of course, the first lot of the new 126 multi-role aircraft to be ordered under the gigantic Rs 42,000 crore project as well as the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft should be operational by 2012.
“A balanced air force is geared to fight across the entire spectrum of conflict. My force structuring and weapon profile caters for it.
Our current force deployment caters for all our likely adversaries and low-intensity conflict,’’ said ACM Major.
Asked whether IAF could carry out cross-border “surgical strikes’’, which was on the table in the immediate aftermath of 26/11, the IAF chief replied in the affirmative. “A surgical strike is like carrying out a surgery at the right place at the right time with the right probe. It’s a precision strike, without collateral damage,’’ he said, adding it can prove “very effective’’ against non-state actors like terrorists.
As earlier reported by TOI, IAF remains concerned about the security of hundreds of small airfields in India, which can conceivably be used by terror outfits to fly light aircraft or microlights and used by them for their nefarious designs.

 

[blain2]

Hi Blain,

The truth is that the indians completely and totally sabotaged the sale of the qatari mirages to pakistan once they learnt about the initiative.

There are reports that the members at one of our sister forum pakistani defence forum learnt about the issue and started releasing info about the sale---it caught onto the indians----which in turn launched a massive lobbying efort to stop the sale----Qatar also wanted some concessions from india over liquid petroleum gas and qatari airline access to indian airports---plus IAF promised them that they would the birds.

My analysis is----it was a golden oppurtunity---it should have been grabbed by all means available---it should have been processed at lightening speed. Excessive time to think and negotiate killed that deal for pakistan.

Other than that---how have you been doing----must be real busy---has taken a lot of effort to get you involved here.

Yes busy for sure (as one gets older, life tends to pull in more directions than one can handle). Not getting as much time to stick around and track threads. But keep on keeping on... This is a good discussion.

Hoe you are doing well as well. I see you burning some midnight oil on recent posts. Good going!

 

[blain2]

Yes, that is correct.I have read his book and i think he even mentioned in his book that Pakistani Nukes were not mated with missiles until 2003.

Saad,

Do not confuse mating to not having delivery options. The nuclear weapons are kept decoupled for security purposes. I think the point to take home is that prior to making operational the Strategic Command with its inventory of SRBM and IRBMs, PAF had the primary strategic role for Pakistan.

With a robust missile based delivery capability in place, Pakistan has more options now. However I do not think that Pakistan lacked the means or most importantly the intent to use them had things arrived to a head prior to 2002.