Will IAF have an edge over PAF in advanced air weaponry?

[Moriarty]

You are failing to get a simple point. If an army says it isn't prepared, no sane govt. would send it to war. Ofcourse they would go to war if forced.

Today, of all indian forces, the indian army is least prepared and of all pakistan forces the PAF is least prepared. And if one of your forces is not ready, you don't go to war or anything that might lead to a war.

Kargil was a different issue...it was NOT an all out war.

For one, there is no point in maintaining a standing army if it is unprepared for war at any given time! There is a vast difference, practically, when one says under-prepared and not-prepared! No standing army in the world is never 'not-prepared' to go to war!

Secondly, to say that the IA is the least prepared of all three services is a gross mis-statement. Neither is PAF least prepared - just under-equipped compared to the IAF, that distinction would go to some of PA's armored divisions. Over-estimate yourself at your own peril! I would think once before betting my money on the IN, but not the IA or the IAF. But my concerns about the IN will change in the coming months.

Now considering Kargil, PA was not-prepared for an all out war, so did not act! As simple as that.

~ Moriarty

 

[mean_bird]

For one, there is no point in maintaining a standing army if it is unprepared for war at any given time! There is a vast difference, practically, when one says under-prepared and not-prepared! No standing army in the world is never 'not-prepared' to go to war!

Jeez!
You are repeating the same thing I said and still arguing. Ill-prepared/under-prepared/not prepared are the same thing in terms of army if you are going to launch an offensive. Sure you can and will if given the order. There are times when you are in the middle of an upgradation, a transition, etc when its not the wisest thing to go to war. Ofcourse, if you had to you will but your probably won't chose that time if it were up to you.

Secondly, to say that the IA is the least prepared of all three services is a gross mis-statement. Neither is PAF least prepared - just under-equipped compared to the IAF, that distinction would go to some of PA's armored divisions. Over-estimate yourself at your own peril! I would think once before betting my money on the IN, but not the IA or the IAF. But my concerns about the IN will change in the coming months.

Now considering Kargil, PA was not-prepared for an all out war, so did not act! As simple as that.

~ Moriarty

Thats your own opinion. I have mine and have reasons to believe what i said.

As I said Kargil was a different issue. It WAS NOT AN ALL OUT WAR. The army was well prepared, otherwise it wouldn't have participated in it. That was politics that ended with Oct 12, 1999 but that's internal politics and another story that would derail this thread. Lets not get into that.

 

[MastanKhan]

How can be tech too advance to absorb? I remember Mastan sir and i think it was Blain sir had a really long discussion and while Mastan sb was of an opinion that ACM meant we could not handle the Gripen in itself, Blain sir said that it was related to TOT only. Anyways how can PAF not be able to handle Gripen, i mean i don't get it, its not a rocket science for a professional airforce such as the PAF to handle an advance jet such as the Gripen or for that matter the EF or rafale.

Hi,

Thankyou for your post. Me and Blain had a conversation, till the interview with ACM was posted verbatim---the ACM didnot say anywhere about TOT---it was plain and simple---grippen is way beyond our abilities that was the gist of the statement----many a posters had their different translations of what they wanted out of it---but the bottomline was----plain and simple---PAF cannot handle the technology.

There is no other way a corporate executive can make it simpler to understand---so be it TOT---or not knowing how to start the engine or take off and land---that plane was beyond our league---simple as that---the hard part is that PAF stroked the whole nation for years. We just need to understand our shortcomings and admit to the truth that is staring us in our faces---we are pakistan---we are an impoverished nation---where the illeteracy rate is getting higher by the minute----it is O K if we can say---THIS THING IS BEYOND OUR MEANS, RESOURCES AND UNDERSTANDING---( there is no shame in it )---and move ahead with life to other things that we understand and work better with---F 16 MLU, F 16 BLK 52, JF 17, FC 20.

Mean-bird,

I never believed that we could have good relationship with india ever---as long as we were not at par in air defence.

I don't think I stated anywhere about Qatari mirages being cheap. They had very few hours on them----but they were readily available with all the bells and whistles---at most---it would have taken about 6 months to complete the transaction---they were a great deal at what the Qatari's wanted for the whole package----where can you get a 4---4.5 generation plane ready to fly the same day and to do your bidding from day one right at the point of delivery.

There are two parties that have failed in this transaction----one is PAF and the second party is France---france should have tried real hard to make the deal to get pakistan back in its yard----but their heads and thinking was up in the air---today their defence aircraft industry is about to become " out of service "---they have lost a tremendous number of qualified engineers and technocrats----mirage is barely staying alive today.

You see----my whole argument is directed towards what do we have today---I know that tomorrow we will have all kinds of stuff----but then tomorrow's IAF will be different as well.

See, I go back to my old statement----pakistan should have known that it had 5 to 7 years of HONEYMOON WITH THE U S OF A. How many times did we need to experience this---we are getting bitten at the same watering hole---in a similiar manner every time and the in the end we keep blaming the other party for not playing by the rules---.

We have yet to understand that those are indeed the rules that the other party plays by---and those rules are not going to change for us unless you control their media and public.

 

[mean_bird]

Hi,
Mean-bird,

I never believed that we could have good relationship with india ever---as long as we were not at par in air defence.

I don't think I stated anywhere about Qatari mirages being cheap. They had very few hours on them----but they were readily available with all the bells and whistles---at most---it would have taken about 6 months to complete the transaction---they were a great deal at what the Qatari's wanted for the whole package----where can you get a 4---4.5 generation plane ready to fly the same day and to do your bidding from day one right at the point of delivery.

There are two parties that have failed in this transaction----one is PAF and the second party is France---france should have tried real hard to make the deal to get pakistan back in its yard----but their heads and thinking was up in the air---today their defence aircraft industry is about to become " out of service "---they have lost a tremendous number of qualified engineers and technocrats----mirage is barely staying alive today.

You see----my whole argument is directed towards what do we have today---I know that tomorrow we will have all kinds of stuff----but then tomorrow's IAF will be different as well.

See, I go back to my old statement----pakistan should have known that it had 5 to 7 years of HONEYMOON WITH THE U S OF A. How many times did we need to experience this---we are getting bitten at the same watering hole---in a similiar manner every time and the in the end we keep blaming the other party for not playing by the rules---.

We have yet to understand that those are indeed the rules that the other party plays by---and those rules are not going to change for us unless you control their media and public.

As I said, I dont have anything against them and I agree with you they would be quite useful but my question remains...how are you envisaging 50-60 aircrafts? How many M2Ks does Qatar have...12...not even a squadron. UAE might be willing to sell, but I don't think they will until they get the rafale which may be quite far away.

So unless UAE is willing to sell, or France would relieve some from their airforce, do you think have just 12 aircrafts of a different kind is a good idea?

Secondly, why exactly didn't PAF buy them if qatar were willing to sell...price?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I believe that they had 18 birds to dispose off with all the equipment and accessories---sorry they were 12 birds a sqrdn of it----2000 / 5 upgrade---with an extremely potent package. PAF decided after negiations and whatnot that the upgrade 2000 5 is at the end of the mirage 2000 life cycle and after 10 to 15 years, they cannot do any more upgrades on that plane.

But with the qatari mirage 2000 5's the PAF would have had a solid nuclear delivery platform--- A dedicated sqdrn of airplanes solely for that purpose---does anyone see anything wrong with a dedicated sqdrn of a nuclear delivery option---here we are---the year is 2004---2 years after year 2002---- in 2002 we tell india that we will go nuclear if they attack us----oh guess what----our delivery of nuclear bomb would be---on the back of a pickup truck----or possibly a nuclear bomb buried undereground----when indian army divisions cross into the area---it is exploded by a timer or through the wire---oh well---reminded me of the jokes my american friends would make---are you guys going to use donkeys or camels to deliver the nuclear bomb to india----it had some truth in it.

You will be surprised at how one of the pakistanidefence web site was responsible for raising an alarm on the indian side and made their lobbyists to work hard on qatar not to sell to pakistan.

Pakistan---pakistanis---and PAF again failed to realize who benefitted from the NO-SALE of qatari mirages to pakistan. FOOL ME ONCE---SHAME ON YOU---FOOL ME TWICE---SHAME ON ME----FOOL ME A THOUSAND AND ONE TIMES----I GUESS IT IS ABOUT TIME TO SWALLOW THE 75 GRAIN OF LEAD.

 

[Manticore]

This interview appeared on Daily Jang and was also shown on ARY ONE. This is a translated version from Daily Jang.

Translation Courtesy - Sarmad


INTERVIEW WITH CAS ACM TANVIR MAHMOOD AHMAD
By: Salim Bukhari, Saeed Ali and Naeem Tahir


Q. Would the new Pakistani F-16s would be performing with a handicap or limitations after the American concerns of the use of F-16s by Pakistan?

Ans There are no handicaps or limitations following the use of the latest F-16C/D Block-52 as well as F-16A/B MLU Fighting Falcons, imposed by the US authorities. PAF can use these aircraft against any target whenever and wherever it wants to. PAF is totally independent in deploying these aircraft against all sorts of targets, in both defensive and offensive roles. All US suspicions are cleared.


Q. Can you explain that why a US team of experts will also accompany these aircraft in Pakistan?

Ans. This is not a new thing. In 1961, a US team of experts accompanied the 12 F-104A Starfighters. Again in 1983, a team accompanied the F-16A/B Fighting Falcons. Similarly French and Chinese team of experts have also accompanied aircrafts of the origin of their countries for the discussion about technical and maintenance details, initially when Mirage III, F-6, F-7MP and F-7PG were inducted.
The only thing which US do not want is that Pakistan does not transfer the technology of the new Falcons to a third country, especially China.


Q. What are your remarks about the new F-16C/D Block-52 Advanced Vipers?

Ans. I am impressed by these new breed of Fighting Falcons. I’m confident that these aircraft along with the MLU F-16A/Bs will bolster PAF’s capabilities and would balance the technological gap of the airforces in the Sub-Continent.
F-16C/D Block-52 is relatively larger, will have enhanced fuel capacity, better engine, powerful radar, better avionics, better payload carrying capacity and range than the earlier versions. Apart from that the aircraft will have night vision, sophisticated targeting pods, ability to carry smart weapons, latest BVR weapons (AIM-120C AMRAAM) and latest Sidewinder missiles and latest sophisticated PGMs and ASMs.
These aircraft will provide all weather day/night capability to hit targets in air, land and sea. Their would be very minimum set up for these as well as upgraded Falcons as Pakistan already has facilities and ground support equipment for the F-16 Fighting Falcons.


Q. How do you compare Pakistan Airforce with Indian Airforce?

Ans. In the present scenario, the role of Pakistan Airforce is to ensure peace in the region and to defend Pakistan from all sorts of aggression. The ratio between PAF and IAF is still the same 1:3 in IAF’s favor. India also enjoys the marvels of latest technology more than Pakistan. Though our F-16A/B Block-15s are still considered as a major threat along the other side of the border, IAF is constantly adding latest and sophisticated aircraft n their arsenal as well as upgrading their old aircraft to meet the requirements of the air warfare arena of today. Practically speaking, PAF even today has the capability to counter any sort of IAF’s aggression but if we won’t take any necessary steps for our modernization in the coming 5-7 years, IAF will go way ahead from us. The balance of power will shift in their favor so much that it would virtually impossible to cope up with them at that time.


Q. Is PAF inducting the Swedish Erieye AEW&C system along with SAAB-2000 aircraft from Sweden? If so, then when will they enter service?

Ans. Affirmative! Pakistan is ready to receive the Swedish Erieye AEW&C systems and Inshallah these systems will enter service in 2009. These radar systems will be used to gather important information and forward it to our Command and Control System, which is linked to the ground radar systems. Thus important information can be forwarded to the Command Operations Center in no time.


Q. What are measures taken for this system to be compatible with PAF fighters?

Ans. All the combat aircraft in PAF’s inventory will be linked to the Erieye system by a data link. New as well as upgraded F-16s, F-10A and JF-17 Thunders are equipped with data links. We are moving towards Network Strategic Warfare, and for that we have worked out on a plan for the modernization of Pakistan Airforce.



Q. Is Pakistan interested in purchasing an aerial refueling system? If true how will PAF utilize this air asset? There is unconfirmed news that Pakistan is considering Ukrainian aerial refueling systems. Is this true?

Ans. Correct! PAF is inducting four Russian origin aircraft equipped with aerial refueling systems from Ukraine. This will enhance defensive and offensive capabilities i.e. PAF’s deep strike capability as well as endurance for long CAP and BARCAP missions. Basically our major aim is to provide a complete aerial refueling system for our JF-17 Thunders which will form our backbone in near future.


Q. Will Pakistan be inducting Chinese KJ-2000 system?

Ans. China is our most sincere friend and in the previous decades, China has excelled in the aircraft development industry and has always offered us frontline equipment with the best package available. Hence we will consider our policies, revise our modernization program and will consider this system to be inducted in our air arsenal along with Erieye System.


Q. What are the options available for PAF to enhance its fleet, and what new fighter types are expected to join PAF in the next five years?

Ans. As I have mentioned earlier, we are keeping all available options open and wants a well balanced multirole jet fighter aircraft. We will be inducting 18 new F-16C/Ds and most probably will use our option of 18 more after the first squadron will be operational. We will also be inducting 26 MLU F-16A/B as well as our existing fleet of 34 aircraft will also undergo the MLU upgrades. 150 JF-17 Thunders and 36 F-10A aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected. Most probably we will also purchase FC-20 fighter aircraft from China.


Q. Is acquiring aircraft from Europe won’t be more feasible?

Ans. In my opinion every option has some special features. We have studied all available options in details. Our main priorities are totally clear in front of the media i.e. Multirole Fighters, High Tech Airborne Radars, BVR Capability and Weapons, Top of the line Weapon Systems and Electronic Warfare Suites. We want to acquire all these things within our resources, and these things in the European market are quite expensive.



Q. How can you compare F-16 and Su-30?

Ans. These aircraft can be compared in many ways. Su-30 MKI has powerful radar but it can be detected by the AEW&C systems and the F-16s will thus be aware of its presence. Apart from that both aircraft can carry latest weapon systems. Su-30 MKI has the capacity to carry heavy loads and more fuel but this can be countered with the help of AAR. In the same manner Chinese F-10A is also an excellent platform in countering this threat and can carry heavier loads than the F-16.



Q. How can we compare F-16 with F-10A and F-18?

Ans. Similarly as I have done it above.



Q. If you are given the authority to induct an aircraft for the PAF, which aircraft will you prefer regarding the resources available?

Ans. The western world has a huge variety of high tech aircraft in which I personally like Typhoon, Grippen, Rafale and FA-18/E. But either these aircraft are expensive or political factors poses some hurdles in their procurement. You would probably understand that their procurement is a sensitive matter hence to be practical and modest F-16C/D or F-16E/F will be my choice.



Q. Initially Pakistan wanted to induct JAS-39 Grippen or Mirage-2000. Will PAF still go for either any of these aircraft, if not then why didn’t this deal materialize?

Ans. We have carried out a detailed series of tests and evaluation on these aircraft and after all the tests were conducted, F-16 was considered as the best due to many reasons.



Q. As you know that the Mirage 2000-9 fighter aircraft was released for the sale to Pakistan. Do you still have any contacts with Dassault for this matter?

Ans. Yes, but not for the Mirage 2000-9 but for our own Mirage series of fighter bombers.


Q. Is this a reality that Thrust Vectoring technology gives an edge in air to air combat? PAF does not possess this technology whereas IAF possess it.

Ans. Thrust Vectoring is an added capability in turning dogfights and close combat, but since the air war of today mostly is fought beyond visual range and effective medium to short range missile coupled with HMS, it’s importance has declined.
Thrust vectoring can be effective in evading a missile, either BVR or SAM.



Q. How will you compare JF-17 with India’s LCA Tejas, Israeli IAI Kfir and Iranian latest jet fighter?

Ans. JF-17 is a fourth generation aircraft, and much more capable than IAI Kfir and Iranian jet fighter. JF-17 can fight any fourth generation fighter and give it either a tough fight or outclass it by using latest tactics of air warfare. Mash Allah, JF-17’s development has taken a lightening pace whereas India is facing problems in LCA Tejas’ development. JF-17’s capabilities are well known by the media whereas LCA Tejas’ capabilities are yet to be revealed.



Q. Can you please provide a comparison between the BVR capabilities of Su-30 and Mirage-2000?

Ans. This is basically a comparison between Russian and French BVR technology. Both are different in performance as well as prices but unlike American BVR missiles, both Russian and French BVR missile are not COMBAT PROVEN.



Q. Can you please inform us about Pakistani PGM capabilities?

Ans. We have top of the range PGM capability, which comprises of both imported as well as domestic weapons.



Q. Can you please tell us that how much money does PAF will require in its modernization program which includes, development of new fighter aircraft, induction of new aircraft and systems and upgradation of old aircraft?

Ans. We will be requiring at least 8-10 Billion Dollars, but since we do not want to put a strain on our economy, our modernizaion program would be completed in 6-8 years starting from now.



Q. What are the measures which you will take for the PAF to make it a formidable fihting force?

Ans. Our targets for modernization should be fullfilled within the time i.e. 6-8 years. We are including AEW and AAR in our fleet as well as gradually replacing old aircraft with new aircraft.


Q. Pakistan is going for F-16s. After 5 years their won't be any room left for the upgradation of F-16C/D whereas F-16 MLU will already been upgraded and cannot be upgraded further. Why Pakistan is not going for JAS-39C Grippen, in which their is room for upgradation of aircraft as well SAAB has agreed to transfer the technology to Pakistan?

Ans. As i have mentioned earlier, latest upgradation, airborne equipment and weapon system can increase the lethality of the aircraft. New variants are certainly different from their older counterparts. As far as transfer of technology is concerned, to tell you the truth, we are not in a state of handle extremely high technology used in JAS-39 Grippen, as we don't have the bases of aerial technogy.

this interview is a bit old... but it clearly states that pakistan can use the f16 block52 against india! no strings attatched!
i posted it here becuase of the ongoing grippen mania

 

[blain2]

Hi,

Thankyou for your post. Me and Blain had a conversation, till the interview with ACM was posted verbatim---the ACM didnot say anywhere about TOT---it was plain and simple---grippen is way beyond our abilities that was the gist of the statement----many a posters had their different translations of what they wanted out of it---but the bottomline was----plain and simple---PAF cannot handle the technology.

There is no other way a corporate executive can make it simpler to understand---so be it TOT---or not knowing how to start the engine or take off and land---that plane was beyond our league---simple as that---the hard part is that PAF stroked the whole nation for years. We just need to understand our shortcomings and admit to the truth that is staring us in our faces---we are pakistan---we are an impoverished nation---where the illeteracy rate is getting higher by the minute----it is O K if we can say---THIS THING IS BEYOND OUR MEANS, RESOURCES AND UNDERSTANDING---( there is no shame in it )---and move ahead with life to other things that we understand and work better with---F 16 MLU, F 16 BLK 52, JF 17, FC 20.

Mastan,

I am sticking to my point about the context about the Gripen being specific to ToT for the Pakistani industry It was not about the ability of the PAF to buy and operate the aircraft. We had made the offer to he Swedes prior to the lifting of the US embargo and the Swedes came back and said Americans are not relenting due to the export restrictions on the GE engines and some other components. I think the interview above in the very last q/a quotes the CAS saying the same, ToT on the Gripen cannot be absorbed by the Pakistani defence industry.

Technologically speaking, the blk-52 is as or more advanced than the version of Gripen that we were looking at. Ease of operations is a key in the Gripen sales pitch.

"we are not in a state of handle extremely high technology used in JAS-39 Grippen, as we don't have the bases of aerial technogy."

What does the point "dont have the basis of aerial technology" mean here? Obviously we are not talking about our airmen and pilots lacking the basics of aerial knowledge as it pertains to flying and maintenance. Rather it is alluding to the fact that Pakistani defence and private sector is in its infancy in terms of their ability to handle aeronautical technology.

 

[blain2]

Hi,

I believe that they had 18 birds to dispose off with all the equipment and accessories---sorry they were 12 birds a sqrdn of it----2000 / 5 upgrade---with an extremely potent package. PAF decided after negiations and whatnot that the upgrade 2000 5 is at the end of the mirage 2000 life cycle and after 10 to 15 years, they cannot do any more upgrades on that plane.

But with the qatari mirage 2000 5's the PAF would have had a solid nuclear delivery platform--- A dedicated sqdrn of airplanes solely for that purpose---does anyone see anything wrong with a dedicated sqdrn of a nuclear delivery option---here we are---the year is 2004---2 years after year 2002---- in 2002 we tell india that we will go nuclear if they attack us----oh guess what----our delivery of nuclear bomb would be---on the back of a pickup truck----or possibly a nuclear bomb buried undereground----when indian army divisions cross into the area---it is exploded by a timer or through the wire---oh well---reminded me of the jokes my american friends would make---are you guys going to use donkeys or camels to deliver the nuclear bomb to india----it had some truth in it.

You will be surprised at how one of the pakistanidefence web site was responsible for raising an alarm on the indian side and made their lobbyists to work hard on qatar not to sell to pakistan.

Pakistan---pakistanis---and PAF again failed to realize who benefitted from the NO-SALE of qatari mirages to pakistan. FOOL ME ONCE---SHAME ON YOU---FOOL ME TWICE---SHAME ON ME----FOOL ME A THOUSAND AND ONE TIMES----I GUESS IT IS ABOUT TIME TO SWALLOW THE 75 GRAIN OF LEAD.

Mastan,

I think the reality of the situation is lost somewhere. Qataris backed out of the sale to both India and Pakistan. It stirred up so much controversy that they did not deem it feasible to sell to either as the repercussions of the sale would have been far reaching. The aircraft are indeed very good platforms, however the other side has to be willing to sell and that too at a decent price.

Indians low-balled them on the counter offer when they held offered the aircraft and in the end their reservations and dilly dallying resulted in no sale.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Blain,

The truth is that the indians completely and totally sabotaged the sale of the qatari mirages to pakistan once they learnt about the initiative.

There are reports that the members at one of our sister forum pakistani defence forum learnt about the issue and started releasing info about the sale---it caught onto the indians----which in turn launched a massive lobbying efort to stop the sale----Qatar also wanted some concessions from india over liquid petroleum gas and qatari airline access to indian airports---plus IAF promised them that they would the birds.

My analysis is----it was a golden oppurtunity---it should have been grabbed by all means available---it should have been processed at lightening speed. Excessive time to think and negotiate killed that deal for pakistan.

Other than that---how have you been doing----must be real busy---has taken a lot of effort to get you involved here.

 

[ejaz007]

Indians had offered a very high price per plane to the Qatari's in an effort to make sure that PAF did not get the planes.

In the end Qatar perhaps decided not to displease both and therefore decided against the sale.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

MastanKhan

you are making it sound so simple and straight farword but you have failed to realise the fact that this deal would be impossible if you have no cash. Infact this deal would have cost pakistan over a billion dollars and how you think PAF was going to get that much money? We do know that our F-16 upgradtion programe has alot of US funds so it wont be much of a financial nightmare like a Mirage-2000-5 deal which would have acuqired 100% of our money. Then PAF will never chose any platform over F-16 given a multiple choice we know why. How ever this Mirage-2005 deal with qatar would have been a good choice if US had never agreed to allow pakistan F-16s.

As a senior person i will repect you but you have no right to make a fool out of us when you are just jumbeling stuff around and unfortunately many of us will fall for it. PAF top brass are not idiots and just alone Pilots do not make PAF the best. You know what they say, "PAF KNOWS BETTER".

________________


As for the tittle "Will IAF have an edge over PAF in advace air Weaponry"?

2015

- 500 AMRAAM Aim-120c5
- 200 new Aim-9 M8/9
- 1000 MICA IR/RF
- 100 SD-10
- 200+ AIM-132 or A-Darter

- AGM-154
- H-2/4
- JDAM
- ALCM RAAD
- PGMs, LGBs
- Anti-runway bombs
- MAR-1
- AGM-84 block II
- Exocet MM-40 block II/III

@ poster now you analize, how much advantage IAF will have over PAF?

 

[mean_bird]

Hi,

I believe that they had 18 birds to dispose off with all the equipment and accessories---sorry they were 12 birds a sqrdn of it----2000 / 5 upgrade---with an extremely potent package. PAF decided after negiations and whatnot that the upgrade 2000 5 is at the end of the mirage 2000 life cycle and after 10 to 15 years, they cannot do any more upgrades on that plane.

I don't think lack of upgradation would have been that much of an issue if they were indeed relatively cheap.

But with the qatari mirage 2000 5's the PAF would have had a solid nuclear delivery platform--- A dedicated sqdrn of airplanes solely for that purpose---does anyone see anything wrong with a dedicated sqdrn of a nuclear delivery option---here we are---the year is 2004---2 years after year 2002---- in 2002 we tell india that we will go nuclear if they attack us----oh guess what----our delivery of nuclear bomb would be---on the back of a pickup truck----or possibly a nuclear bomb buried undereground----when indian army divisions cross into the area---it is exploded by a timer or through the wire---oh well---reminded me of the jokes my american friends would make---are you guys going to use donkeys or camels to deliver the nuclear bomb to india----it had some truth in it.

Sorry, but with due respect, I will completely differ on this. The comment on sending some nukes on donkeys or trucks is completely baseless. You do know that even our current fleet can do that, don't you? You do know that by 2004 we have our Ghauri and Shaheen missiles, don't you?

I don't think the capability of delivering Nukes would have any impact on the decision. The only factor is something we needed for our air defence against the MKI, and Indian M2Ks.

You will be surprised at how one of the pakistanidefence web site was responsible for raising an alarm on the indian side and made their lobbyists to work hard on qatar not to sell to pakistan.

Pakistan---pakistanis---and PAF again failed to realize who benefitted from the NO-SALE of qatari mirages to pakistan. FOOL ME ONCE---SHAME ON YOU---FOOL ME TWICE---SHAME ON ME----FOOL ME A THOUSAND AND ONE TIMES----I GUESS IT IS ABOUT TIME TO SWALLOW THE 75 GRAIN OF LEAD.

Well as blain stated that the Qatari refused to sell, whatever the reason. You can't really blame the PAF for that. India can have strong influence on a small country like qatar.

 

[hj786]

I can confirm what Blain2 has posted regarding Gripen being "too advanced for PAF." The Air Chief Marshal himself has stated in an interview somewhere that PAF was offered transfer of technology by Sweden for the Gripen, but did not take up the offer because technology was too advanced and Pakistan could not handle the ToT, NOT that PAF could not handle the plane.

 

[Manticore]

1]
the f16 deal is never fool proof... america is telling pakistan to do more against terrorism every day.. also saying that pakistan is not doing what it should do against terrorism.. so the deal can go haywire whenever american choose it to be.. u should never put your defence at stake on ''if and when'' we get f16s...

2]
french equipments are costly yes.. but reliable aswell.also they are willing to sell... these 2 variables are also important... (how many other countries are offering their front line 'qualitative/proven jets to us?).qualitative difference that we have now could've been narrowed if we had some mirages in the 90s

3]
the 90s era has put paf atleast 8 years behind iaf..yes we will be getting j10s and also modifying jf17 in lot of quantity.(both jets are in their infancy). but at the same time india would be getting added quality in terms of su30/f18.(both are mature platforms)..
and we will be again 5-10 years behind india..



cost will always be a problem.... but qualitative defence must always be the priority

4]
im not a technical person, but i think india has different programmes to counter our f7, mirage and a5 as these different jets have different plus and minus points.

.. but when we generalize to only jf17 and its elder brother j10, then the stratedy for india to deal with them would also be norrowed down.. so we need a variety.

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paf knows these facts... but as illfate , we couldnt get the mirages.forget the politicians and their 10 percent share.. order some rafales .. as their induction would also take time..im willing to give 10 percent to politicians if our defence can be supplemented.. get the damn money by begging if u have to.. our polticians are great at that..
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5]
iaf is now under american petronage.. what will stop it to get f35s if the russian pak-fa programme doesnt materialize? this viscious cycle of paf lagging behind in quality will go on and on aslong as we dont make some tough and quick decisions...

also as india is working on 5th gen... i'm not saying we should work on it.. but if rafales are out of question, then save the money for buying 5th gen jets from china/ sweden whenever they hit the market
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the point is that paf should have a trustworthy western hiteck/frontline/air superiority platform that can be supplemented alongwith j10s..
[the platform can be less in quantity.i.e if bought in only couple of squadrons ,, it would not damage our relations with china rather diversify our front line options and take the pressure away from our jf17 fleet]

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I can confirm what Blain2 has posted regarding Gripen being "too advanced for PAF." The Air Chief Marshal himself has stated in an interview somewhere that PAF was offered transfer of technology by Sweden for the Gripen, but did not take up the offer because technology was too advanced and Pakistan could not handle the ToT, NOT that PAF could not handle the plane.

sorry mate but this remark is just bogus! What was he thinking anyway or was it again media error? or did it just slip out of ACM's mouth! first of all to begin with, PAF would have never negosiated with sweden if the technology was to advance.