Hi,
So what is the price for national security----we spend 100's of million dollars on wasteful projects---what would be the big deal if we wasted another 500---800 million on something useful---.
Qatari and UAE ( ! ) mirages were a blessing in disguise----they still are as of today----even if pakistan procures them somehow by tomorrow---it will totally level the playing field for the next 5 to 8 years----the 20 years of disparity between IAF and PAF will disappear in a moment----we would not even remember if it existed.
Today, we have to worry about around 400 indian aircraft which are technically superior to PAF----with the mirage 2000's we will only have to wory about SU 30 which are about 100 in numbers ( correct me please on numbers).
It is only one hour or plus flight time from Qatar / UAE to karachi----in one plus hour PAF will be pretty much at par with IAF----supposedly all the mirages landing at masroor at one time---( it is not possible in such a short time but ).
PAF thinks that these planes will need to be upgraded after 10 plus years----to them the air to air parity today is not as important as the future upgrades are.
I am pretty sure most pakistani members here are PAF lovers and so am I----but the problem here is that PAF is still living in its past glory of 65 and somewhat diminished performance of 71---.
People are still talking about the GRIPPEN---and here is what I am putting down again---PAF was never a contender for the Grippens---before going in they already had ideas that the plane was technologically too advanced for them---possibly in the first 30 days of evaluation, they confirmed their assessment about it----it was way out of league for the PAF---but still they stroked themselves and the people of pakistan for years and they played sweden as well---for what purpose and to meet what end that they had to play that game----it was totally an atrocious behaviour playing with the emotions of pakistani people and equally troublesome to waste valuable time not to get what was needed urgently on a ---I need it now basis.
People talk about man behind the machine----well that is fine if he had TWO EYES TO WATCH WHAT WAS HAPPENING AROUND HIM---today---majority of PAF pilots are flying BLIND as compared to the IAF. They have no vision---they are blindfolded----their planes have these puny little radars which they cannot see beyond their own feet----and we compare them to the SU 30's---the radar emission of that plane would roast a pilot's you know what from 50 miles away---.
My analysis is that PAF is not pro-active in its approach to present issues---its mentality is stagnant---there is too much in-breeding---in house thinking---their view point is not BVR----because they have been flying and believing in their VVR planes for too long---what PAF needs is an out of the box approach----what they need is an outsider to tell them what they are missing---.
They need to learn it from pak army and pak navy.
To those who believe in man behind machine----a computer example
PAF IS LIKE A DOS / WINDOWS 95 COMPUTER-----WHILE THE IAF IS FLYING IN THE WINDOWS VISTA MODE.
The fiery breath of the dragon is visible to all and sundry---it just needs a little courage to strike at the knight in his little shiny armour---the only problem here is that IAF shudders to think what if they loose 10---20 SU 30's on day one of surgical strike missions---how will they be able to show their faces to the rest of the world. We human beings are funny people. We cannot forget the losses that we took in that past. It just totally un-balances the cart. And being embarrassed in front of the whole world----" if I could just drown myself in a cup of water "!!!
Dear Mastankhan,
With all due respect, I think you skipped some aspect. I'll come back to your first paragraph at the end.
1. How can you say IAF has 400 aircrafts that are "superior" to what PAF have and in the next very sentence say if we get the qatari/UAE Mirages it will disappear in a moment? How many Mirages do you have in mind and whats the cost of them? Heck, who says UAE is willing to sell them tomorrow? As for Qatari Mirages, they are quite old so I am not a big fan of them.
2. Yes total cost has to be taken into account including future upgrades. The question is..are the Mirages the only option we have today to match the disparity? While one may argue that they are cheaper than say a newly built plane but are they that cheap? I don't think so. All I have heard on forums are fanboys saying UAE would sell them to us quite cheap because of "their respect for PAF" or may be because of "Muslim brotherhood". Nice way to decieve yourself but thats not how the real world works always.
Another argument, like you said, is we could equalize the disparity in an hour. Again with respect, that's a naïve statement. How can someone induct a plane and suddenly become an expert at it at a second's notice? While some PAF pilots may be flying training the UAE airforce, but getting a competent combat-ready squad is another thing altogether. Same goes with its repair/overhauling....though we have a Mirage III factory, takes time to convert that to a Mirage 2K one. Weapons, engine, etc are all issues.
My point here being that although it might be far shorter to induct M2Ks to say Grippen or J10, but it aint simple as you're making it out to look. And in a relatively not so larger time frame, we could induct our JF-17s or say J10s instead. We do not have the money to get both.
3. While its true that PAF has a "F-16 mania" (they have some practical reasons though), you tend to neglect the whole 90s decade-ridden factor from the whole equation. Tell me what option PAF had during the 90s? They tried the Mirages but it became victim to politics. Hardly much PAF could have done there! Its during these difficult times that PAF resorted to China for the JF-17 program. If we have the luxury of US equipments and no monetary restraints, I am sure these MLU's would have been done much before and new F-16s (BVR capable) ordered too.
Things were quite hard for PAF till 2002. And only by 2004-5 did we start having less tense monetary constraints to look around. And by that time relations with India had got better, there were US gurantees of no tension on the eastern borders, etc and PAF could afford the time to let JF-17s be inducted instead of hurriedly buying whatever you get to cover up.
Assuming a shift of the little money PAF has to mirages, we must cut from the JF-17 orders...which in turn translate to having less F-7 replacements or, in reality , meaning going below the 1:3 ratio of planes between PAF and IAF. Would the advantage of getting the Mirages be greater than loosing on numbers?
Lets face it....for the last two decades, except for a 3-4 year window, PAF has been hit hard but either sanctions or monetary constraints. You are partly right that PAF didnt jump up to bridge the gap in that window of opportunity ( 2003/4 - 2007). Could be, as you said, because of decades of using legendary systems because you don't raise your standards until you taste better. But it would be inappropriate to be harsh on PAF for it had little choice.
Coming back to your first point...IMHO, the price of acquiring any sizable fleet of M2Ks would run in the billions of $$. True that national sovereignty and defense have no price cap, but today we are facing more internal threats than external ones.
I love PAF and aviation in general (hardly visit the PA and PN threads) but I am not disappointed on the way we have spent our defense money.
P.S: Just my opinions..no confrontation intended. I value highly your posts and thoughts.
up and down? 
