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"Will cut tongue of anyone who wants to change Blasphemy Laws" - JI

By definition, it's not a "Fabricated" news (story), Sir. At max you can say that, in your opinion, the phrase in question has not been translated accurately/literally ... But there is a logical contradiction in your position/argument. You yourself say that JI KP Chief's figurative language should not be taken literally, but you are dismissing an entire news story as "fabrication" just because the translators have NOT translated (just) one of the figurative/idiomatic phrase literally !!??

As for what is worse, chopping off hands or cutting tongue?, that debate is pointless ..... of course there can be difference of opinion on that. You may believe that cutting tongue is worse and the journos have "exaggerated", I believe they have tried to downplay the intensity of JI Chief's threatening remarks .... In any case, it's the criminal threatening and intimidatory behavior that is unacceptable.







A Governor of Pakistan's largest province, and a Federal Minister have already lost their lives for opposing the (misuse of) Blasphemy Laws. So, we do have "practical examples" where those hands that 'went' towards the law were chopped off !!

If you read all my posts, my focus has been on the quoted line as I was shocked as well.

The headline and quote in news is fabricated, without any doubt. There's no truth in 'cut tongue and eyes' hence fabricated.

Iraq had 'weapons' but not the mass destruction ones. So does that mean 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction' is half truth!? No!

And if you have listened to the speech to the end, he does say 'there's no compromise' straight after the metaphor.

I'm neither JI follower nor an apologist, infact I'm totally against all religious parties in politics!

But we don't need to loose our heads over every news and continue to do so even after finding out that the sensational headline itself is fabricated. You know all too well how manipulative news is and what it does. Majority here read a few lines including the headline and went off. That's how we want Pakistanis to react to everything?

The way people start reacting to such news on the forum is how the mob behaves on the street!

People should remain calm and verify the news for complete truthfulness themselves before reacting. Isn't that what Islam teaches us to do?

Anyways, if people want to fear monger and create hysteria then by all means carry on. I don't see any good in that, maybe others do.
 
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If you read all my posts, my focus has been on the quoted line as I was shocked as well.

The headline and quote in news is fabricated, without any doubt. There's no truth in 'cut tongue and eyes' hence fabricated.

Iraq had 'weapons' but not the mass destruction ones. So does that mean 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction' is half truth!? No!

And if you have listened to the speech to the end, he does say 'there's no compromise' straight after the metaphor.

I'm neither JI follower nor an apologist, infact I'm totally against all religious parties in politics!

But we don't need to loose our heads over every news and continue to do so even after finding out that the sensational headline itself is fabricated. You know all too well how manipulative news is and what it does. Majority here read a few lines including the headline and went off. That's how we want Pakistanis to react to everything?

The way people start reacting to such news on the forum is how the mob behaves on the street!

People should remain calm and verify the news for complete truthfulness themselves before reacting. Isn't that what Islam teaches us to do?

Anyways, if people want to fear monger and create hysteria then by all means carry on. I don't see any good in that, maybe others do.


Sir, You have made some valid points but don't you think our arguments should be substantive rather than semantic? What difference does it make whether the JI KP Chief threatened to cut the tongues or chop off hands (of those who oppose/criticize Blasphemy Law), or how his words were translated by the press ? ... The point remains that such kind of criminal threatening and intimidatory behavior is unacceptable ... The Supreme Court of Pakistan has clearly laid down that criticism of 295-C is NOT objectionable .... But even if it were objectionable under the law, who the hell is he to chop off the hands (or threaten to do so) of those who criticize/oppose blasphemy law ?? Ins't he inciting violence ? Isn't he openly challenging the writ of the state ?? .... JI KP is organizing a protest on May 5th for the release of those JI members who have been arrested for the lynching/Murder of Mashal Khan... Using religion for own political survival !!
 
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Sir, You have made some valid points but don't you think our arguments should be substantive rather than semantic? What difference does it make whether the JI KP Chief threatened to cut the tongues or chop off hands (of those who oppose/criticize Blasphemy Law), or how his words were translated by the press ? ... The point remains that such kind of criminal threatening and intimidatory behavior is unacceptable ... The Supreme Court of Pakistan has clearly laid down that criticism of 295-C is NOT objectionable .... But even if it were objectionable under the law, who the hell is he to chop off the hands (or threaten to do so) of those who criticize/oppose blasphemy law ?? Ins't he inciting violence ? Isn't he openly challenging the writ of the state ?? .... JI KP is organizing a protest on May 5th for the release of those JI members who have been arrested for the lynching/Murder of Mashal Khan... Using religion for own political survival !!

No one should be above the law. For what he said in his recorded video, if there is any breach of law he should be taken to task. No ifs and buts about it.

However, kicking and screaming over fabricated quotations is wrong.

Liberal lobby is very vocal these days, then how come we do not see any petitions in court over such matters? Or social media is the only outlet? Bhensa supporters were out on the streets, what's the issue with going to courts instead?

Push for enforcement of law instead of breeding hatred on social media. All legal venues are open and that is the same message to the mob as well.

The problem is that many prefer to keep this fighting on social media only! There is hesitation, for some warped reasons, to not take the legal approach.

Maybe you can shed some light on this hesitation? You think the liberals are helping themselves by keeping their fight anywhere other than in the courts? Or is it some grand plan to tell the whole world 'look here, we Pakistanis are each other's throats all over social media'?
 
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No one should be above the law. For what he said in his recorded video, if there is any breach of law he should be taken to task. No ifs and buts about it.

However, kicking and screaming over fabricated quotations is wrong.

Liberal lobby is very vocal these days, then how come we do not see any petitions in court over such matters? Or social media is the only outlet? Bhensa supporters were out on the streets, what's the issue with going to courts instead?

Push for enforcement of law instead of breeding hatred on social media. All legal venues are open and that is the same message to the mob as well.

The problem is that many prefer to keep this fighting on social media only! There is hesitation, for some warped reasons, to not take the legal approach.

Maybe you can shed some light on this hesitation? You think the liberals are helping themselves by keeping their fight anywhere other than in the courts? Or is it some grand plan to tell the whole world 'look here, we Pakistanis are each other's throats all over social media'?


"Polite(r)" translation of any figurative expression to downplay the intensity of threatening remarks/statement (given by some prominent political/religious figure) is not "fabricated quotation" ...


Why don't the Pakistani liberals go to courts ?? well, for starters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/pakistan-blasphemy-lawyers-idUSKCN0W905G

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid_Rehman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmaan_Taseer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Bhatti
 
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"Polite(r)" translation of any figurative expression to downplay the intensity of threatening remarks/statement (given by some prominent political/religious figure) is not "fabricated quotation" ...

Our opinions differ on this and Western Liberal Secular societies (that many look up to for inspiration) would not tolerate blatant fabrication of quotation either.

No court of law would accept such gross fabrication. Words written do not match words spoken - it is as simple as that - and there is absolutely no justification for such manipulation by a journalist who is publishing in english press only - hence for the consumption of english speaking (inc foreign) audience primarily!

Plus that journalist hasn't surfaced to claim what you are saying on 'toning it down' so I fail to understand why you are assuming and hinging it to be the truth - any real evidence available to back your claim!? He should have reported exact words and then, and the video is available too for all to see ... this was not a private conversation! So this is a FAIL on your part to assume the journalist wanted to tone it down for public consumption! Just an assumption without any substance.

Please stop masking the fabrication and justifying it by other means.

As for cutting of hands, it happens in Saudi, and it is not that shocking for the world. But cutting of tongue is sinister. You should be condemning this journalist instead for accusing JI of what ISIS does! Now maybe you will say that JI and ISIS are no different, yes?


One was killed by TTP (Khawarij) and those also killed more innocent muslims. No further comment.
One was killed by unknown gunmen. To say that conservatives muslims killed him would be wrong, without any proof.
One was killed by his own security guard. That killer has been hanged. Justice served. Case closed.

Asma Jahangir is still alive, and so are many vocal liberals. Highlighting above 3 is just a poor excuse to avoid courts.
 
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Our opinions differ on this and Western Liberal Secular societies (that many look up to for inspiration) would not tolerate blatant fabrication of quotation either.

No court of law would accept such gross fabrication. Words written do not match words spoken - it is as simple as that

I seriously doubt that any court of law in the world will consider Chopping off someone's hands a lesser crime than Cutting his tongue. Under Pakistan Penal Code both these crimes are dealt with under the same section and carry the same punishment (10 years jail time) ... So, the "distinction" you are trying to create here is rendered meaningless.

One was killed by TTP (Khawarij) and those also killed more innocent muslims. No further comment.
One was killed by unknown gunmen. To say that conservatives muslims killed him would be wrong, without any proof.
One was killed by his own security guard. That killer has been hanged. Justice served. Case closed.

They were killed for holding and propagating liberal values. And the killers were conservative/extremist Muslims. Case closed
 
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I seriously doubt that any court of law in the world will consider Chopping off someone's hands a lesser crime than Cutting his tongue. Under Pakistan Penal Code both these crimes are dealt with under the same section and carry the same punishment (10 years jail time) ... So, the "distinction" you are trying to create here is rendered meaningless.

You are still stuck on the literal meaning of a metaphor. Why don't you talk about the first half of that metaphor too? As I said before, the focus is only on one part.

Anyways, journalist should have reported word for word. Your justification of why he did otherwise is absurd.

It is ISIS who cuts off tongues, not JI! But hey, you may think JI and ISIS are no different. Right?

They were killed for holding and propagating liberal values. And the killers were conservative/extremist Muslims. Case closed

It is interesting that you are now labelling conservatives and extremists to be one! I'm sorry to say, but this attitude and such remarks are pathetic and a true reflection of the bigotry.

Even West differentiates between the two!! :rolleyes1:
 
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You are still stuck on the literal meaning of a metaphor. Why don't you talk about the first half of that metaphor too? As I said before, the focus is only on one part.

Anyways, journalist should have reported word for word. Your justification of why he did otherwise is absurd.

It is ISIS who cuts off tongues, not JI! But hey, you may think JI and ISIS are no different. Right?


No, I have only pointed out to you the flaws in your logic/argument. I have already explained my position. We may agree to disagree

Have a nice day.
 
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Clearly the extremist fanaticism around the blasphemy law is astonishing. One would think that they want to act in accordance with what the Prophet would do. Shocker: they don't. When I see people like Mumtaz Qadri and Molana Burqa being commemorated, I am saddened beyond belief. We need to repeal the two blasphemy laws that cause such problems.
 
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Factually incorrect. If these were the same Molvis they wouldn't be in Pakistan, because they made it a point to stay in India. The Hakeemul Ummat, Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi Rahimahullah was a stalwart figure who mobilized millions of his followers to agitate for the creation of Pakistan. Please stop spreading these lies.

BTW, kudos to Amir Mushtaq Ahmad Khan Sahib. Hats off Sir!!!!!!



Pipe dream.

You are seriously sick in the head.

Celebrating / cheering on this kind of mutilation (that the Quran or verified Hadith don't even encourage) requires a special kind mental disorder.

Do you consider yourself any different from ISIS / TTP? They justify their murderous rampages against civilians using the Quran as well. The only difference is that the interpretations they choose to follow (e.g. killing of Pakistani civilians is legitimate because they are not up in arms against their non-Sharia / non-Caliphate / Western-aligned government + the classic Takfeeri elements) are very different from what the Pakistan Army, fighting them with the same "Allah-hu-Akbar," choose to follow. Who's right?

Are you open to the idea that there is no singular interpretation of Islam? Some schools of thought actually say diametrically opposite things about the same issues (not talking about blasphemy specifically.) Even scholars within the same school of thought have had varying rulings over the same topics. I feel if Maulvis understand this simple fact, central to the development of Islamic thought through the centuries, tolerance would increase manifold.

And it's astounding the amount of passion (and penchant for violence) for the "blasphemy law" (vs. doing the even better deed of forgiveness) yet very little in the way of living like good Muslims (which, if they were, Pakistan would be in a much better situation in terms of social justice, etc.)
 
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You are seriously sick in the head.

Celebrating / cheering on this kind of mutilation (that the Quran or verified Hadith don't even encourage) requires a special kind mental disorder.

Do you consider yourself any different from ISIS / TTP? They justify their murderous rampages against civilians using the Quran as well. The only difference is that the interpretations they choose to follow (e.g. killing of Pakistani civilians is legitimate because they are not up in arms against their non-Sharia / non-Caliphate / Western-aligned government + the classic Takfeeri elements) are very different from what the Pakistan Army, fighting them with the same "Allah-hu-Akbar," choose to follow. Who's right?

Are you open to the idea that there is no singular interpretation of Islam? Some schools of thought actually say diametrically opposite things about the same issues (not talking about blasphemy specifically.) Even scholars within the same school of thought have had varying rulings over the same topics. I feel if Maulvis understand this simple fact, central to the development of Islamic thought through the centuries, tolerance would increase manifold.

And it's astounding the amount of passion (and penchant for violence) for the "blasphemy law" (vs. doing the even better deed of forgiveness) yet very little in the way of living like good Muslims (which, if they were, Pakistan would be in a much better situation in terms of social justice, etc.)

I'll reply on this thread in detail later, there is a few things that need sorting out. Meanwhile, Is Amir Mushtaq any different from ISSI/TTP in your eyes? If he is no different, then there you go. Now you have a way to legally pursue action against him. All ATCs in the country would be very, very strict against ISIS/TTP. How about you proceed with the lawsuit?
 
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I'm shocked that there are people with ISIS/TTP mentality people here. This is just disgusting. Please stop this radical extremism it's unhealthy and so far from Faith.
 
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I'm shocked that there are people with ISIS/TTP mentality people here. This is just disgusting. Please stop this radical extremism it's unhealthy and so far from Faith.

You saying someone has 'ISIS/TTP' mentality doesn't make it so.
 
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You saying someone has 'ISIS/TTP' mentality doesn't make it so.

It is apparent that liberals here simply do not have the brainpower to differentiate between extremist killers and conservatives.

They are actually the ones with the extremist mindset themselves - the other side of the extremist coin. :rolleyes1:
 
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I'll reply on this thread in detail later, there is a few things that need sorting out. Meanwhile, Is Amir Mushtaq any different from ISSI/TTP in your eyes? If he is no different, then there you go. Now you have a way to legally pursue action against him. All ATCs in the country would be very, very strict against ISIS/TTP. How about you proceed with the lawsuit?

I am more interested in how you differentiate yourself from the ISIS/TTP ideology.

I just have trouble understanding anyone with the blood-lust to want to mutilate (not just kill) anyone who wants to discuss amending a law to, at the very minimum, ensure that it protects those who are wrongly accused.

Therefore, I fail to understand the mentality of the "righteous mobs" who kill blasphemy-accused (usually just framed) in the most brutal ways --- and then desecrate / mutilate the bodies further. There is no room for this in our religion or in our laws. This is why Amir Mushtaq must be condemned. This is also why the Imam of the mosque in Chitral who protected the accused is extraordinary --- if you were the Imam of the mosque, you probably would have gouged the poor fellow's eyes out and kept his severed tongue as a trophy on your bedside as proof of your most unquestionable piety.

I believe in very heightened religious tolerance because a.) frankly we are not living in a Caliphate and b.) intolerance is the seed from which extremism grows. In the final analysis, the Almighty will provide Divine Justice anyway.

Why does the thought of blasphemy rouse such violent emotions when most of the goons calling for blood are living lives that are barely in accordance with Islamic principles of justice, mercy and fairness? Ishq-e-Rasool is present in all good Muslims --- the true believers just live it out in their daily lives and not just when the local mullah tells them to go lynch someone. I've never seen these mobs do something positive, like clean the streets, help women or give shelter to innocent animals.

@Divergent1 @Azlan Haider @Verve @Vazir

It is apparent that liberals here simply do not have the brainpower to differentiate between extremist killers and conservatives.

They are actually the ones with the extremist mindset themselves - the other side of the extremist coin. :rolleyes1:

Equally interesting how anyone who disagrees with a conservative-bordering-on-extremist mindset is labeled a liberal without any brainpower.

Most Pakistani liberals are pseudo-liberals who want to be exactly like the West. Many are atheist. I am neither. I believe Western policies and terrorism has caused incredible damage to the Muslim world. The US has supported extremists of various hues throughout history. The liberals fail to understand this.

The problem is that the extremists on both sides drown out all moderate voices. The only difference is that the liberal extremists generally aren't out for blood.

Conservative mindsets often lead to a heightened degree of intolerance because they generally feel that their interpretation must be the best, and it's a slippery slope to extremism from there. I have nothing but respect for people who live their lives based on the esteemed principles of our religion. What I do have a problem with is people who insist that Islam has singular interpretations and who try and enforce their preferred interpretation on others as the "absolute truth."
 
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