Widebody War Looming For Indian AWACS?

[sancho]

Likely the order being for only 6 made this deal not too attractive to Boeing-similarly in the Avro replacement 40 units to be made in india was too small for most potential bidders.

Those are 2 completely different things!

The Avro replacement includes licence production of the aircraft in India and the ammount of aircrafts was too low for many to justify setting up a production line. None of this however would be necessary for the AWACS India project, since the aircraft would be build in Europe or the US, just as the EMB 145 was in Brazil, or the A50 was in Russia.
Also keep in mind that each of this aircrafts costs nearly as much as the 3 x Embraer 145s together, so how can Boeing not be interested? Another point is, that they already did the modification of the 767 for Japan, so it would be a rather simple task for them, to do it for us and implement a DRDO radar, while Airbus does the modification for the first time and probably at higher costs, again an advantage for Boeing to win the deal, so if they don't bid, it must have other reasons.

I also don't see why you are pushing so hard for an inferior product (EMB-145i) and proposing stunting the next logical iteration of an AWACS designed in India i.e. a 360 degree solid state AWACS on a wide-bodied a/c.

Because I see it as the IAF does, since the need of the hour is more AWACS aircrafts, not more capable. We currently have the A50 Phalcon, which is hugely capable, but available only in such pathetic numbers that IAF can't guarantee proper surveillance coverage in a war at this point and that only because we waited so long for DRDO to deliver. Now that they are so close to actually deliver, we need more of that and not wait another X years, till they deliver the next promise. The security of the nation has more importance than DRDO claiming to be in an elite club of developers!!!

Do you really think 15 AWACS are enough for India beyond 2020?

Buddy, what has the time to do with the number of AWACS aircrafts we need? Nothing, it's about having an X ammount of aircraft in the air, at the same time, to provide proper coverage, by overlapping their flight paths. So 1 x A50 + 2 x smaller AWACS is not only more cost-effective, but operationally more useful than just having 2 x larger aircrafts only.
As I said earlier, I do think we will need some AEW's for the coastal areas or sea control requirements, but they don't need highly capable radars, just a suitable platform since you hardly have the same threat situation as on the land based borders. The EMB 145I for example, would be perfect to cover the western coastlines, to monitor surface vessels, with around 300Km detection range to both sides. There is no need to have an A330 with a large radome and 360° detection in an area where no enemy aircrafts are, let alone only a minimum enemy presence on the ground.
Also, the MTA AWACS would be more capable than the EMB 145I, with better flight performance, more internal capacity and a more capable radar system, while being more cost-effective than what DRDO is dreaming of.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Because I see it as the IAF does, since the need of the hour is more AWACS aircrafts, not more capable.

The need of the hour perhaps but the AWACS(India) project is looking to the needs of the IAF in the future so what's the problem?

We currently have the A50 Phalcon, which is hugely capable, but available only in such pathetic numbers that IAF can't guarantee proper surveillance coverage in a war

Indeed, pathetically small numbers so is the not where a cheaper domestic alternative offering similar capabilities would be ideal?

Now that they are so close to actually deliver, we need more of that and not wait another X years, till they deliver the next promise. The security of the nation has more importance than DRDO claiming to be in an elite club of developers!!!

You seem to by implying the development of the AWACS (India) would happen the deliveries/development of the EMB-145i, The design and development of that is done, the DRDO can churn them out when and where needed and the required rates, the AWACS (India) will hamper this effort in no way.

Buddy, what has the time to do with the number of AWACS aircrafts we need? Nothing,

Because beyond 2020 the IAF is clearly going to demand more everything- transports, tankers, AWACS, fighters etc so long term there is a requirement for a top of the line AWACS made in India, why should the DRDO stop with the limited capabilities of the EMB-145i?

What is the harm in developing a world class system built on the A330 which will be required in the future, It is hardly a bad thing to have this kind of capability unless you think having too many AWACS is an issue.

 

[sancho]

The need of the hour perhaps but the AWACS(India) project is looking to the needs of the IAF in the future so what's the problem?

No it's not, since you still ignore what IAF said officially themselfs! AWACS India is a project only by and for DRDO, not based on IAFs needs, nor even based on what the best for export potential.

Because beyond 2020 the IAF is clearly going to demand more

Again you are ignoring that the timeline has no meaning here. Will Indias borderlines somehow grow beyond 2020? Of course not, the area that we have to cover remains the same, all you need is the right ammount of aircrafts to be operational at any given time.

What is the harm in developing a world class system built on the A330

The claim itself, because that shows what the aim of the project is and not how it serves the nation! We don't need a world class system, but a good enough one that can be deployed fast and cost-effective. We don't need a large and expensive platform, since we already fixed that requirement with A50 Phalcons. Nor is there any export potential of such an high end system, that most nations simply can't afford.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Considering the fact that the IAF Avro has 80,000 Hours of residual life left and that IAF has a total of 56 Avro's which they hardly use, its best to convert a few of them into a AWACS.

This would of course require some major changes both inside and outside the AC along with modern upgrades but there aer already IAF Pilots trained to fly this and maintain this AC.

I hope IAF and DRDO gives this a serious thought. Then again, they might have and have discarded the idea.

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

Considering the fact that the IAF Avro has 80,000 Hours of residual life left and that IAF has a total of 56 Avro's which they hardly use, its best to convert a few of them into a AWACS.

This would of course require some major changes both inside and outside the AC along with modern upgrades but there aer already IAF Pilots trained to fly this and maintain this AC.

I hope IAF and DRDO gives this a serious thought. Then again, they might have and have discarded the idea.

No chance since the one that had crashed claiming the lives of eight of our scientists. Some reports questioned the DRDO's wisdom of developing this technology on an "unreliable" HS-748 Avro aircraft. Moreover it doesn't feature advanced systems such as the in-fight refueling system which are required for such platforms.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

No chance since the one that had crashed claiming the lives of eight of our scientists. Some reports questioned the DRDO's wisdom of developing this technology on an "unreliable" HS-748 Avro aircraft. Moreover it doesn't feature advanced systems such as the in-fight refueling system which are required for such platforms.

That was when DRDO themselves did the Modifications.

This time they can get the modifications done by professionals aircraft manufacturers.

About in flight refueling, I did talk about upgrading the AC.

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

That was when DRDO themselves did the Modifications.

This time they can get the modifications done by professionals aircraft manufacturers.

About in flight refueling, I did talk about upgrading the AC.

Not sure if the Avro's can be upgraded so extensively - and I think the IAF required a turbofan AWACS not a turboprop one. @sancho can help.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Not sure if the Avro's can be upgraded so extensively - and I think the IAF required a turbofan AWACS not a turboprop one. @sancho can help.

A Turofan or a Trboprop on an AWAC does not change things too drastically. I would be more concerned about its range, but with A2A refuelling that is no more an issue.

No reason why Avro cannot be upgraded extensively, we are upgrading AN 32 extensively.

 

[sancho]

Not sure if the Avro's can be upgraded so extensively - and I think the IAF required a turbofan AWACS not a turboprop one. @sancho can help.

It's not about the engine type, but the speed that IAF requires, which most prop aircrafts can't deliver (except maybe one with the TP400 engines of the A400). So a prop engined platform is pretty much out of question for IAF and the only reason DRDO used the Avros in the past, was that we had them available for test and modifications, just as we have the Do 228, that was modified to MPAs or surveillance roles by DRDO.