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Why was the Awami League not allowed to form government in 1971?

roadrunner said:
A simple calculation. Mir lived around 250 years ago. Let's say he was a full Arab, and he is indeed related to Nazimuddin and the other Bengali president.

Each generation he marries a Bengali, so that after the first marriage, his children are half Bengali/half Arab. After the second generation they are quarter Arab and 75% Bengali. This is in less than 15 years so the 18th century has not yet even arrived. By the time the lineage gets down to Nazimuddin, the Arab would be a miniscule percent in Nazimuddin, if indeed it is there to start with.
You have turned the theory of genetics on its head and spun it like a top. Genetics do not follow a linear route as you have depicted. Progenies do not inherit, half of fathers gene and half of mother genes. The distribution is never equal, and not to mention the random, mutations that result in a new trait.

However, I will probably cut you some slack here. With each passage of generation, the genetic influence of a particular generation gets diluted further down the line, although, some genes may never completely be lost. Thus, calling Iskander Mirza, an Arab is a stupid thing to do. But, gromell is not doing that. And you know it already.

What he is saying is that, no matter which ethnic group you legally belong to, that is, take your birth in, unless you live that ethnic life, you do not become a “true” representative of that ethnicity. I have put the word “true” within quotes, because, it is obviously, a matter of perception and you know perception matters.

Thus if Iskander Mirza, although being a Bengali, tried to dissociate himself from his true ethnicity (I personally do not know much about Mirza and I am going by gromell’s account), it is only natural for other Bengalis to view him with suspicion and not regard him as a member of their clan.

I am sure, you have heard of the term “brown sahib”. What it essentially means, is a person, who by birth belongs to this sub-continent, but is psychologically and through practice is more close to the west, or at least pretends to be so.

You can say, Iskander Mirza was a “Bengali Arab” – Bengali by birth and Arab by practice.
 
Relevant posts have been moved to new thread, was Iskandar Mirza a Bengali.
 
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I heard Pakistanis writing in this forum that the great fighter ace M. M. Alam was not Bengali even though he was born in Bengal. .

He is a Pakistani and a Bengali - he is not Bangladeshi.

The latter is what some may have been trying to argue against, and got Bengali and Bangladeshi mixed up.
 
You can say, Iskander Mirza was a “Bengali Arab” – Bengali by birth and Arab by practice.

Why was he Arab by 'practice'?

What 'practices' does one have to do to become Bengali?

Do a hundred percent of these practices have to be followed to be a Bengali or is seventy or fifty percent Ok? Who decides what is an 'appropriate percentage'?

Is there conclusive evidence that an 'appropriate percentage of practices' were not followed by Mirza?

Contrary to you, I see Gromell as definitely arguing on the basis of 'ethnicity/race/race dilution' - that is precisely what he said in his first post:

"..the nawab family was not ethnically bengali...did not have ethnic bengali roots..."

Then he goes on to narrate the story of a predecessor of Mir Jaffar's 'Arab roots' from 250 years ago. Lets not justify or make excuses for what was clearly meant to be a racial argument.
 
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^^ Word salad.

About 'ethnicity/race/race dilution', I had said...

"With each passage of generation, the genetic influence of a particular generation gets diluted further down the line, although, some genes may never completely be lost. Thus, calling Iskander Mirza, an Arab is a stupid thing to do."

As with “Bengali Arab”, and the question, "Is there conclusive evidence that an 'appropriate percentage of practices' were not followed by Mirza?"

"...if Iskander Mirza, although being a Bengali, tried to dissociate himself from his true ethnicity (I personally do not know much about Mirza and I am going by gromell’s account), it is only natural for other Bengalis to view him with suspicion and not regard him as a member of their clan.

And,
"...it is obviously, a matter of perception and ... perception matters."

The answers were all there in my post. If only you had taken your time to read the entire post, may be then you would have figured, how I got to that last line.

"What 'practices' does one have to do to become Bengali?"

The answer is very general, and is applicable for every ethnic identity. Among other things, and not going into a frenzy of mental masturbation to determine the 'appropriate percentage of practices', love for one's mother tongue, one's understanding of the cultural heredity that transcends religion, cast, creed and political boundaries, appreciating one's ethnic history and the struggle, if any, for its identity. More importantly, to wear one's ethnic identity and not constantly pretend to be something that one is not, ethnically speaking. (Like a bunch of Pakistanis trying desperately to be Arab or like a bunch of Bangladeshi's trying to be Pakistani - well, not exactly ethnic examples, but, dare I say, you'll get the point.)

And once again, perception matters. One can be anything within the confines of privacy, but how he comes across to the society at large, determines his public identity.
 
^^ Word salad.

If you can find it possible to get beyond snide asides, lets focus on the actual question of the topic shall we?

About 'ethnicity/race/race dilution', I had said...

"With each passage of generation, the genetic influence of a particular generation gets diluted further down the line, although, some genes may never completely be lost. Thus, calling Iskander Mirza, an Arab is a stupid thing to do."

Perhaps - its not really an issue I raised, I was merely pointing out your defense, or rather the deflection of justified criticism, aimed at Gromell for his use of racial ancestry in denying Mirza's 'Bengalihood'.

As with “Bengali Arab”, and the question, "Is there conclusive evidence that an 'appropriate percentage of practices' were not followed by Mirza?"

"...if Iskander Mirza, although being a Bengali, tried to dissociate himself from his true ethnicity (I personally do not know much about Mirza and I am going by gromell’s account), it is only natural for other Bengalis to view him with suspicion and not regard him as a member of their clan.

And,
"...it is obviously, a matter of perception and ... perception matters."

The answers were all there in my post. If only you had taken your time to read the entire post, may be then you would have figured, how I got to that last line.

The answer is very general, and is applicable for every ethnic identity. Among other things, and not going into a frenzy of mental masturbation to determine the 'appropriate percentage of practices', love for one's mother tongue, one's understanding of the cultural heredity that transcends religion, cast, creed and political boundaries, appreciating one's ethnic history and the struggle, if any, for its identity. More importantly, to wear one's ethnic identity and not constantly pretend to be something that one is not, ethnically speaking. (Like a bunch of Pakistanis trying desperately to be Arab or like a bunch of Bangladeshi's trying to be Pakistani - well, not exactly ethnic examples, but, dare I say, you'll get the point.)

And once again, perception matters. One can be anything within the confines of privacy, but how he comes across to the society at large, determines his public identity.
If the genetic ancestry is not an issue (if I read you correctly), then that leaves 'practices', and if you cannot comment one way or the other on Mirza's 'practices', then I take that you are saying, after all of the above 'mental masturbation' that you don't really know whether Mirza was Bengali or not.

Did Mirza reject his Bengali nationhood? And did he do it in favor of 'Arabhood', or did he do it in favor of his Pakistaniat?

Public perceptions are not the issue here, unless you are somehow suggesting that polling was done and when political leaders found out that Mirza wasn't considered a 'Bengali' in East Pakistan, he somehow became more favorable as a potential leader.

Lets not meander off into tangential issues of 'public perceptions of Mirza in East and West Pakistan'. The question was simple enough - 'Was Iskander Mirza a Bengali?'

The question was not - 'Was Iskander Mirza perceived as a Bengali by the majority of the people residing in East Pakistan?'
 
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Take the fact brother. There are more Bengali speakers than Urdu. And nobody was and is saying there is no mother outside Bangladesh. I hope you do understand what the term "Mother Language" actually means. I do not see how someone can even compare two language qualitatively! And Bengalis never took Bangla as holy language! Holy crap what are you saying Zakir bhai!?!? Urdu was thrashed upon Bengalis claiming Urdu is a holy language. Bengalis just fought against that oppressive, ridiculous, absurd theory and wanted to speak whatever they want. Well, I am a bit general in my last few words, probably not just fighting for the right to speak but to establish a status for the FIRST language of the majority of the people of Islamic Republic of Pakistan. You go to any country and just see how whiny they are about their language. George Bush had a problem with Hispanic people speaking Spanish in his country! You come to Montreal in Canada, most people won't even answer your question if you ask it in any language other than French(that includes English too! and 80% Canadians are anglophones). Go to European countries and see how they uphold their languages. If you like Urdu so much, nobody will be preventing you from enjoying it. But please don't insult others' emotion for their languages. That's more Islamic way to behave, specially with other Muslims. Thank you:cheers:

Once again emotion over logic. You failed to comprehend my original intention. Yes there are more people speak Bangla as a mother language than Urdu but Urdu is more useful and understands by more people and places than Bangla. Bangla is only confined in Bengal regions of subcontinent and only by bangla speaking native whereas Urdu is spread all over subcontinent from Bengal to Peshawar. Urdu also easier to adopt over Bangla by Muslims in subcontinent and that was the main reason why Urdu was chosen to be national language of Pakistan. It would have accommodate all Pakistani compare to Bangla. It is more like neutral language rather regional. Pakistan was found based on Islam and Muslim brotherhood rather than ethnic identity.

You address me as “Zakir bhai”. One is Arabic and other is Urdu word. No bangla in them. Here are few words out of thousand: Kalima, Namaz, Ruja, Hajj, Zakat, Jamat, khana, pina, Salam, khuda, Allah. So basic point is language evolve with time to accommodate our way of living. Today’s Bangla has no similarity with its original form. Bangla speak by Bangladeshi is even different than those over India because BD’s Bangla heavily dosed with Farsi, Arabic, Urdu, Turkish and other. So now if we are to omit all the non bangla words than it will be understand by only few.

But please don't insult others' emotion for their languages. That's more Islamic way to behave, specially with other Muslims.

I am not insulting or criticizing you or any one regarding mother language but I am being practical and logical rater than full of emotion with senseless regional pride. No one came to your house and put gun in the head that you couldn’t speak your mother language. Punjabi, Pashto, Sindi, Baluchi and others language didn’t disappear from Pakistan just because Urdu is national language. I am sure they love their mother language and no one stopping them to practice it. First thing of being Muslim is believe in Islamic Ummah regardless region, language, color or what ever. We are all bound by qur’aan and teaching of Profit Muhammad(PUBH).

Originally by gromell: thnx for reminding me of iskhander mirza. he was from the nawab family of bengal born in murshidabad, which now falls in India. the nawab family was not ethnically bengali. and beside as i said in my earlier post, just coming from the region does not mean you have great fascination for it. there are always dalal/betrayers and he was not a popular person among bengalis. nazimuddin, bogra-they all were somehow related to nawab families in Bengal and bihar and they did not have ethnic bengali roots.

I have serous doubt you being either Bangladeshi or Muslim. There is either some serious vacuum lacking in your thinking process or your up bring. You seem to a person who cannot think out side the box and refer all predominate Muslim family from Bengle as outsider who's contribution to developed Muslim Bengle is immense. "Lal qilla" and "Ahsan Manjil" is the heart and soul of Dhaka. If sir Nawab Salimullah didn’t establish Dhaka University than Bangladeshi would have been uneducated, back warded and more so your beloved Bangla language wouldn’t be found anywhere in first place and by the way your beloved tagore a insider actually vote against the establishment of Dhaka University. Pakistan government banned all of his work but some Bangladeshi seems to be enjoy being ignorant and ill informed. Tagore had no contribution to Muslim Bengle what so ever yet some people foolishly over admire him . He referred “sonar bangla” to west bangle not Muslim bangle. Come to your senses and realize your enemy rather than being brainwashed by Indo-Zionist propaganda. If you are Muslim and Bangladeshi than I am requesting you to think Muslim first and Bangladeshi second.
 
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Has anyone read the book "From Plassey to Pakistan" written by Humayun Mirza, the son of Iskander Mirza? I have not read the book, but from the reviews and some excerpts of the book, it appears that Humayun doesn't consider his family a Bengali family.

From Plassey to Pakistan: A Historical Study
By Humayun Mirza
Maryland

As the heat rises to a climax in Washington’s summer, my book is about to be born, telling the story of my family from the time of a battle in another summer almost 250 years ago. From Plassey to Pakistan: The Family History of Iskander Mirza, the First President of Pakistan, will be published by the University Press of America (Lanham/New York/Oxford) in the fall of 1999. The current flare-up of conflict between India and Pakistan over Kashmir takes its source in the events recounted in the book. Decisive military action by my father, then Secretary of Defense for Pakistan, could have resolved the matter at the outset of the crisis. The Prime Minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, decided to refer the matter to the United Nations in the mistaken belief that the UN had the ability to resolve such issues.

The 1818 Society newsletter editor has persuaded me to prepare a summary of the book, and she has also added parts of its preface to whet your appetite. In the book, I trace the fortunes of my ancestors, the Nawab Nazims of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa, the powerful rulers of one of the wealthiest provinces of the Mughal Empire, as they struggled against foreign predators. In 1757, Robert Clive defeated Nawab Nazim Sirajud-duala at the Battle of Plassey, setting the stage for Britain to colonize the rest of India. The events leading to the end of the British Indian Empire are then explored, including the origin of the Kashmir issue that continues to plague relations between India and Pakistan. The great-grandson of the last Nawab Nazirn and later the first president of Pakistan, my father, Iskander Mirza’s role in these events is examined. The book concludes with an account of my own experiences as an insider looking at the World Bank as it evolved from a highly respected international development finance institution of Eugene Black’s days to what it is today.

Iskander Mirza’s career started in the British Indian Army after the end of World War I. Spanned over the final years of British rule in India, and ended with his overthrow by a military dictator in Pakistan. My own story reflects the fate of many whose lives were disrupted by the sudden breakup of their country of birth. I hope my telling of both my father’s and my stories can shed new light on the roles played by Pakistan’s political leaders, such as General Ayub, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and General Zia, thus providing the basis for an analysis of the country’s present woes.

Setting the Record Straight

Until now books on the British in India, nearly all written from the British point of view, have depicted the Englishman as the conqueror of a vast continent, rich in resources, which he ruled for over a century. This book gives the other side of the story and, in the process, paints a picture of the fortunes of a family caught up in the tide of history. It is also a unique inside study of the career of Pakistan’s first elected president. When my father was overthrown by the military dictator, General Ayub Khan, the latter had my father’s personal papers burned in an attempt to erase his name from the history books, The syllabus in Pakistani schools was altered to portray Ayub Khan as the savior of Pakistan and was restored only under Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Children born luring Ayub Khan’s long dictatorship grew up, with a distorted view of that period in Pakistan’s history, and those who have written about the events that plunged Pakistan into those dark days of military rule have had to struggle with scraps of information to reconstruct the events.

However, my father had written many detailed letters to me while in office and also talked to me extensively during his exile in England. Starting with this material, I spent ten years of painstaking research following my retirement to produce this book; I believe it helps to fill an important gap III the history of India and Pakistan.

How I Came to Write the Book

In July of 1986, when I was still with the World Bank in Washington, DC, I received a letter from Morris Bierbrier from the British Museum in London. A historian himself, he was preparing “scholarly pedigrees of a number of Muslim families” and wished to include a “complete pedigree of the Nawabs of Bengal and Murshidabad including all modern descendants.” He asked for my help to complete this pedigree. Two years later, when I retired from the World Bank after 30 years of service, I decided to visit Morris Bierbrier in London to learn more about his research. He particularly aroused my interest when I found that some of the information that he had gathered threw new light on what really happened at the Battle of Plassey. I also learned for the first time details of the last Nawab Nazim of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa, Mansur Ali Khan’s 11-year stay in England. Morris Bierbrier’s research thus added a new dimension to the reasons for the Nawab Nazim’s eventual abdication and the subsequent disintegration of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa,

These intriguing, though unrelated events, encouraged me to further study the facts. Thus was born the idea to write the book. Morris Bierbrier agreed to do further research in England on my family’s genealogy and the lives of the early Nawab Nazims. I supplemented his research with my own in India, Pakistan, England, and the United States.

Looking for My Father in History

To conduct research, I made a number of trips to India, in particular, to Calcutta, Murshidabad, then the capital of Bengal, Bihar, and Orissa, and the battlefield at the village of Plassey. The West Bengal Archives contain a gold mine of information. The British kept detailed records of all that went on at that time, and these were all made available to me in Calcutta, as were the records kept by the District Commissioner in Behrampore. In the library in Behrampore the records are mostly in Persian, the official language of the court of the Nawab Nazims. The numerous petitions of the Nawab Nazims and their family were translated and reviewed by the British Resident, who was at first based in Behrampore and then moved to Murshidabad to be closer to the ruler. He forwarded the petitions along with his recommendation to the government of India in Calcutta. These provide a valuable background, particularly to the events that led to the abdication of the last Nawab Nazim in 1880.

In Pakistan, my research was less successful. I had been told that my father’s personal diaries and papers were held either in the Ministry of Interior or in the State Bank of Pakistan. I searched both in vain and finally learned from the Ministry of Interior authorities that all information relating to my father had been burned on orders from Ayub. It became clear that Ayub had tried to obliterate my father’s place in Pakistan’s history.

The Dawn newspaper provided useful information from its archives in Karachi. In England, the India Office Library contains a wealth of information, as does the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst Library. The intelligence reports on my father’s presidency held at the National Archives in Washington, DC, are an excellent source. Many were released under the Freedom of Information Act and make up for the material ordered destroyed in Pakistan by General Ayub.

The Power of Women

Women played a critical role in the lives of the rulers of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa, and later in the life of the first President of Pakistan. Being absolute rulers in a part of the world where society considers the person in authority all-powerful, the Nawab Nazims tended to maintain large harems and engaged in affairs with dancing and servant girls. These women also served as concubines and knew that their days in the sun were short lived. Whenever a new Nawab ascended the throne, he brought with him his own retinue of concubines, which replaced the previous group. The concubines lived by their wits, not only to survive during the lifetime of their benefactor but also to ensure their future when he was gone.

Some of these concubines tuned out to be more cunning and wily than the well-born wives of the Nawab Nazims. They resorted to intrigue and connivance and rose to wield great power and wealth that changed the course of history. Munni Begum was one such dancing girl. She married the Nawab Nazim and used her wealth and power to bribe British officials, which allowed her to engage in widespread smuggling and place her minor sons in positions of power. The British in turn used her to take control of the Nizamat finances and rewarded her by naming her the Mother of the East India Company. They made deep encroachments into the authority of later Nawab Nazims during this period.

The British later also took advantage of another concubine who had become the mistress of the last Nawab Nazim. Her intrigues and the Nawab Nazim’s own excesses with European women gave them the excuse to strip him of his throne and titles and acquire the whole of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa. They abolished the throne of the Nizamat family and exiled the Nawab Nazism’s legal wife, Shams-I-Jehan Begum, from Murshidabad, along with Khurshaid Kudar Syed Iskander Ali Mirza the legitimate heir to the throne of the Nawab Nazim and her only remaining son.

Almost 80 years later, many in Pakistan believe that had her great-grandson, lskander Mirza, not entered into a relationship with the wife of an Iranian military attaché in Pakistan, he would not have lost his presidency to a military dictator, His liaison with the wife of a foreign diplomat violated the code of conduct of the armed forces, which he himself had established and vigorously enforced when he was Pakistan’s powerful secretary of Defense. He thus lost the respect of the younger officers and indeed that of the rank and file of the armed forces. General Ayub capitalized on this to engineer the military coup d’etat against Pakistan’s first civilian president and to send him into exile in England. Even worse, Ayub set a precedent for other ambitious generals to involve the military in government, which is largely responsible for the corruption practiced by subsequent and current governments.

The Power of Greed

Contrary to popular belief, the colonization of India was achieved through rough intrigue and manipulation rather than force of arms. The British originally came to India to trade but soon leaned that by playing one faction against another they stood to gain both territory and immense personal wealth. This is how India was colonized, and how Bengal, Bihar and Orissa in particular were acquired. The British then proceeded to plunder the riches of their new colony. It is interesting to note that the excellent infrastructure of transport they built during the Raj was aimed at collecting revenues and exporting India’s wealth to England and not at easing the lives of the Indian people.

Conclusions

I conclude this book with two chapter, devoted to my own experiences and my view of the reasons for Pakistan’s current sad condition. Since I spent 30 years of my life at the World Bank, I deviate for a moment to focus on the evolution of all institution, which I hold in the highest respect, from the days of Eugene Black, when I joined the Bank as an operations officer, to those of Barber Conable when I retired. Drawing on Pakistan’s historical background and the political turmoil of its first 50 years of existence, I also present my ideas of how it can avoid the pitfalls of the past and rejoin the community of nations as a respectable member.

I have tried to bring out the facts as accurately as possible and to fill some of the gaps in Pakistan’s history. If I succeed in doing this, then I feel that I have done my duty by my ancestors, my father, and my country.

Humayun Mirza retired from the World Bank in 1988 after 30 years of executive service. His book “From Plassey to Pakistan: The Family History if Iskander Mirza, the First President of Pakistan” will be out next month. Pages 448. Illustrations 63 photos. Price: cloth $44.50.
 
For those who are interested in knowing whether Mir Jaffer was an Arab and if yes, what percentage? or Bengali etc. The family tree of Mirza family from BENGAL, BIHAR and ORISSA (Kingdom).

BENGAL
 
It would have accommodate all Pakistani compare to Bangla. It is more like neutral language rather regional. Pakistan was found based on Islam and Muslim brotherhood rather than ethnic identity.

When more than 50% of the population used to speak Bengali as the first language and most of those Bengali population had no knowledge of literary urdu, then how come you are claiming Urdu would suit most Pakistanis? Are you sure it is I, not you who is fuming with emotion?

You address me as “Zakir bhai”. One is Arabic and other is Urdu word. No bangla in them. Here are few words out of thousand: Kalima, Namaz, Ruja, Hajj, Zakat, Jamat, khana, pina, Salam, khuda, Allah.

I apologize because I really do not have the time to respond to everything you said now but I shall inshAllah reply to your every question gradually. but few things that I could not restrain myself from responding are:
Bhai is used in hindi, gujrati, marathi, urdu or bengali. I think bhai comes from sanksrit, not urdu. Bhatri>Bhrata>Bhai, something like this. I am not sure but I expect you to show me the root of the word "bhai" in urdu, if you have to convince me with logic, not emotion.

There have been foreign words in both urdu, hindi and bengali. The most being urdu. Bengali has less than 8% foreign words in it. out of these 8% foreign words good deal will be similar to the ones used in urdu, not because they come from urdu, but because they come from the same but another origin. For example Kalima is arabic. namaj is farsi, roja is farsi, hajj is arabic, zakat is arabic, jamat is i think arabic, khana is farsi most likely, pina not sure might be farsi or saksrit, salam is arabic, khuda is farsi and i dont think any muslim should take extra pride by saying Allah is "urdu" not "Bangla". If you see linguistically then "Allah" word is Arabic meaning God but then regardless of ethnicity, everyone has the right to call God as God or Allah!
 
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I have serous doubt you being either Bangladeshi or Muslim.

Are you saying, you will read my writing and understand what I am trying to say in different perspective, solely depending on whether I am a Bangladeshi Muslim, or a Bangladeshi Hindu or a non-Bangladeshi....? Isn't perceiving the thought that a Bangladeshi Muslim would ONLY think the way YOU THINK, similar to not being able to come out of the box? you surely do have the right to fantasize I am not a Muslim if that helps you to always remain in your self-made bias. But I surely do not care. I am a newer member of this forum compared to you. However I guess it's better not to judge someone else's religion, faith, ethnicity from the point of view he puts in his columns. And I never said something that goes against Islam. NOT a single time brother. In fact I think you need to check some comments in your posts, directed to me and others, if they go well with Islamic ideals and principles or not.
 
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Once again emotion over logic. You failed to comprehend my original intention. Yes there are more people speak Bangla as a mother language than Urdu but Urdu is more useful and understands by more people and places than Bangla. Bangla is only confined in Bengal regions of subcontinent and only by bangla speaking native whereas Urdu is spread all over subcontinent from Bengal to Peshawar. Urdu also easier to adopt over Bangla by Muslims in subcontinent and that was the main reason why Urdu was chosen to be national language of Pakistan. It would have accommodate all Pakistani compare to Bangla. It is more like neutral language rather regional. Pakistan was found based on Islam and Muslim brotherhood rather than ethnic identity.

You address me as “Zakir bhai”. One is Arabic and other is Urdu word. No bangla in them. Here are few words out of thousand: Kalima, Namaz, Ruja, Hajj, Zakat, Jamat, khana, pina, Salam, khuda, Allah. So basic point is language evolve with time to accommodate our way of living. Today’s Bangla has no similarity with its original form. Bangla speak by Bangladeshi is even different than those over India because BD’s Bangla heavily dosed with Farsi, Arabic, Urdu, Turkish and other. So now if we are to omit all the non bangla words than it will be understand by only few.



I am not insulting or criticizing you or any one regarding mother language but I am being practical and logical rater than full of emotion with senseless regional pride. No one came to your house and put gun in the head that you couldn’t speak your mother language. Punjabi, Pashto, Sindi, Baluchi and others language didn’t disappear from Pakistan just because Urdu is national language. I am sure they love their mother language and no one stopping them to practice it. First thing of being Muslim is believe in Islamic Ummah regardless region, language, color or what ever. We are all bound by qur’aan and teaching of Profit Muhammad(PUBH).



I have serous doubt you being either Bangladeshi or Muslim. There is either some serious vacuum lacking in your thinking process or your up bring. You seem to a person who cannot think out side the box and refer all predominate Muslim family from Bengle as outsider who's contribution to developed Muslim Bengle is immense. "Lal qilla" and "Ahsan Manjil" is the heart and soul of Dhaka. If sir Nawab Salimullah didn’t establish Dhaka University than Bangladeshi would have been uneducated, back warded and more so your beloved Bangla language wouldn’t be found anywhere in first place and by the way your beloved tagore a insider actually vote against the establishment of Dhaka University. Pakistan government banned all of his work but some Bangladeshi seems to be enjoy being ignorant and ill informed. Tagore had no contribution to Muslim Bengle what so ever yet some people foolishly over admire him . He referred “sonar bangla” to west bangle not Muslim bangle. Come to your senses and realize your enemy rather than being brainwashed by Indo-Zionist propaganda. If you are Muslim and Bangladeshi than I am requesting you to think Muslim first and Bangladeshi second.

I always think Muslim first. thank you for reminding me that again. But if you are strong in faith then you do not need urdu as a binding force when the educated people in Bengal did not possess much knowledge of it due to practical reasons. are you saying a Bengali muslim is worse muslim than a muslim who speaks urdu?:S Now, now, now I am not saying you are saying it but I'd like you to clarify me here. I never talked about the Nawab family of Ahsanullah or Salimullah. They were not Nawab of Bengal brother Zakir. They were known as Nawab family of Dhaka I think. We all know how much they did for the people of Bengal. may Allah subhanawata'ala bless them in the life hereafter. On the other hand, The Nawab family of Bengal were based on Murshidabad, West Bengal, present day India.
 
I always think Muslim first. thank you for reminding me that again. But if you are strong in faith then you do not need urdu as a binding force when the educated people in Bengal did not possess much knowledge of it due to practical reasons.

In that case you shouldn't criticized other Muslim who may have originated from elsewhere. yes it's true but Urdu is a lot easier to adopt unlike bangla which is very hard to comprehend by non native to Bengal.

are you saying a Bengali muslim is worse muslim than a muslim who speaks urdu?:S Now, now, now I am not saying you are saying it but I'd like you to clarify me here. .

I don't get it. where you get that idea from? when the hell I associate Urdu with Islam.
I was merely comparing two language and its feasibility in the context of United Pakistan.

Gromell
I appreciate your input and accept it as a good debate. You have your believe and I have mine. I gave my explanation with logic and followed a practical approach nonetheless it won't make any different because we look and experience the world in different light. So let's leave it to that and move on..........:cheers:
 
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AgNoStIc MuSliM said:
Lets not meander off into tangential issues of 'public perceptions of Mirza in East and West Pakistan'. The question was simple enough - 'Was Iskander Mirza a Bengali?'

The question was not - 'Was Iskander Mirza perceived as a Bengali by the majority of the people residing in East Pakistan?'
The answer to your first question would be an unambiguous YES. Of course, he was a Bengali, ethnically speaking. Unfortunately, though, what we are discussing, rather questioning, is not his ethnicity but if he truly represented his ethnic group. Yes, we are discussing the second question. Tangential to you, relevant to us.

Before I plunged into the debate, which was something else in the first place, the only few things that I knew of Iskander Mirza are that he descended from Mir Zafar (and a courtesan) and that he was the first president of Pakistan. From personal anecdotes, I gathered that the family of Nawabs, traditionally, never really considered them to be Bengalis, stayed aloof from the populace, never really took much interest in Bengali culture etc. Googling revealed that, Mirza was apparently not at all liked by the leaders and patronizes of Bengali national movement (and continues to be disliked). During the tumultuous 60s, “pro-Pakistan”, translated into “anti-Bengali” in Bangladesh, and by that yard stick, he seems to have scored pretty high.

The curious case of Mirza, is also related to this much larger question of how and when does a nation consider something to be pro or anti national. Would he have been considered to be worthy of his chair as Governor General of East Pakistan, if he had shown signs of sympathy for the Bengali cause, which in itself was considered as “anti-Pakistan”, and which had already begun to cause quite a headache to Pakistan ?

The issue, therefore, is not if he was a Bengali, but lies with the question of if he had represented Bengali cause, being in the position that he was. Amidst the cacophony of Bengali nationalism, his failure to do so translated as his failure to represent his ethnicity.

The Nawabi tendency to not assimilate with the populace, coupled with his willful indifference to the struggle for establishing a Bengali identity, resulted in him, being dismissed as a true Bengali.
 

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