Why the US May Go to War in the SCS

[Viet]

The Vietnam War is an excellent example of how people confuse political goals with military objectives.

The politicians said: 'We need to defeat X country.'

The military said: 'In order to defeat X, we need to take this and that cities, blockade these ports, etc.'

In the Vietnam War, the US military achieved all of its military objectives. The US Air Force needed to gain absolute air supremacy and done it. The US Navy needed to control the sea off Viet Nam and done it. The US Army needed to control the ground wars and done it. After the disastrous 1968 Tet Offensive, the VC ceased to be an effective combat force. Before 1968, the VC can field battalion level strength, but after 1968, never more than squad and those squads were usually on the run.

The point from the Vietnam War is that despite all the successful military objectives, the politicians can throw those victories away. In a manner of speaking, the American politicians, pressured by internal dissatisfaction, did quite that -- threw those military victories away when they voted no funding for the war so the US had no choice but to leave the country.

bro, I wonder of your mentality.

are you happy to see the americans killing our people because they belonged to the "wrong" side? do you feel happiness when the americans killed en mass our people? after all, americans are foreigners.

my father once served in the southern vietnamese navy, but I feel no happiness to count the bodies of dead vietcongs. you feel so happy. do you want to declare the US won the war? by all standards, America lost the war. they even admit it, they still suffer the vietnam trauma. there are endless books/films about the war. why do you want to say otherwise?

Do you want to deny
- the high casualties of US soldiers, dead as well as wounded
- the high and unsustainable cost of the war
- the collapse of the dollar, as well as the bond to gold
- the end of public support at home and international communnity
- the collapse of moral and fighting spirit of the army. after the vietnam war, the US abandoned the conscripts, and changed to professional voluntary army.

Sure, North Vietnam suffered heavy casualties, but they won the war und united the country. The Soviet Union suffered millions of deaths during the war. by your standard, Germany won the war, because the Nazi suffered less.

 

[mike2000]

bro, I wonder of your mentality.

are you happy to see the americans killing our people because they belonged to the "wrong" side? do you feel happiness when the americans killed en mass our people?

my father once served in the southern vietnamese navy, but I feel no happiness to count the bodies of dead vietcongs. you feel so happy. do you want to declare the US won the war? by all standards, America lost the war. they even admit it, there are endless books about the war. why do you want to say otherwise?

- the high casualties of US soldiers, dead as well as wounded
- the high and unsustainable cost of the war
- the collapse of the dollar, as well as the bond to gold standard
- the end of public support at home and international communnity
- the collapse of moral and fighting spirit of the army. after the vietnam war, the US abandoned the conscripts, and changed to professional voluntary army.

Nope bro, I think you misunderstood what Gambit was trying to say. He is a vietnamese afterall as well, just like you. Why do you think he will be happy to see his fellow brothers/citizens being killed?

What i think Gambit and i were trying to say is that, the U.S military didnt lose the war per se, their officials/diplomats/presidents decisions did. U.S military planners/high ranking officals knew what strategy they needed to win the war, but they were constrained by the diecision the officials in washington made against their decisions.
Moreover the main reason for this as i said earlier was China and U.S.S.R assistance/support to the north vietnamese soldiers through out the war. Had the U.S.S.R and even more so China not provided support/arms/training/supplies/refuge/even covert troops/miliotary advisers to their communist buddy north vietnamese troops, then the U.S and its South vietnamese allies would run over the north very easily in a matter of weeks at best. Soviet and Chinese assiatance, coupled with fear of Chinese involvement in the war which prevented a full scale ground invasion in the north by the U.S/SVP was the main reason the war got prolonged for soooo long without either party winning decisively until the U.S decided to withdraw.

So if anything Blame the Russia and China for the war claiming sooo many Vietnamese soldiers/civilians and being prolonged for so long. since without them, it wouldnt even have been a war at all, just a walk over.

 

[Viet]

Nope bro, I think you misunderstood what Gambit was trying to say. He is a vietnamese afterall as well, just like you. Why do you think he will be happy to see his fellow brothers/citizens being killed?

What i think Gambit and i were trying to say is that, the U.S military didnt lose the war per se, their officials/diplomats/presidents decisions did. U.S military planners/high ranking officals knew what strategy they needed to win the war, but they were constrained by the diecision the officials in washington made against their decisions.
Moreover the main reason for this as i said earlier was China and U.S.S.R assistance/support to the north vietnamese soldiers through out the war. Had the U.S.S.R and even more so China not provided support/arms/training/supplies/refuge/even covert troops/miliotary advisers to their communist buddy north vietnamese troops, then the U.S and its South vietnamese allies would run over the north very easily in a matter of weeks at best. Soviet and Chinese assiatance, coupled with fear of Chinese involvement in the war which prevented a full scale ground invasion in the north by the U.S/SVP was the main reason the war got prolonged for soooo long without either party winning decisively until the U.S decided to withdraw.

So if anything Blame the Russia and China for the war claiming sooo many Vietnamese soldiers/civilians and being prolonged for so long. since without them, it wouldnt even have been a war at all, just a walk over.

the US as a superpower had everything to win the war in Vietnam, but failed.
It is Chinese propaganda when they claimed they would intervene if the US troops crossed a certain line.

Why should China intervene at all on behalf of Vietnam? Chinese goal was to bleed Vietnam. their supports were limited and half hearted. they stopped all supports when North Vietnam refused to abandon the bond to the Soviet Union. Imagine, if North Vietnam did what the Chinese demanded, the war was lost.

by the way, the US and with her allies had made several attempts to invade North Vietnam but failed. where was China? they were with themselves, busy with revolutions at home.

 

[mike2000]

the US as a superpower had everything to win the war in Vietnam, but failed.
It is Chinese propaganda when they claimed they would intervene if the US troops crossed a certain line.

Why should China intervene at all on behalf of Vietnam? Chinese goal was to bleed Vietnam. their supports were limited and half hearted. they stopped all supports when North Vietnam refused to abandon the bond to the Soviet Union. Imagine, if North Vietnam did what the Chinese demanded, the war was lost.

by the way, the US and with her allies had made several attempts to invade North Vietnam but failed. where was China? they were with themselves, busy with revolutions at home.

I agree with the first part, thats exactly what i said earlier, The chinese call to the U.S saying they will interven back then if the U.S crossed the line close to their border like in Korea was a big bluff, since the circumtsnaces here were different. However U.S officilas/diplomat for some silly/foolish reasons still fell from it and prevented U.S military planners/officlas from carrying out their military plans in the north as intended. This meant the U,.S was fighting with a hand tied behind their back, since there is no real way you can win a war through air dominance alone(same is the case with ISIS in Syria and Iraq, they wont be defeated by just air strikes)..
You seem to underestimate the support/logostical help/arms/training the Chinese provided their 'allies' back then to the Vietcong. This is something i wont even begin to argue with you on this, since everybody who knows a little bit about the Vietnam war knows it was the case. The support Vietcong got from the Soviets and China was what made them carry on with the war for so long, they also had military advisers in the north as well. You simply cant argue against this fact. Had the Soviets and China not provided any support the Vietcong, then this wouldnt have been a war in the first place believe me, The U.S and its South Vietnamese allies/troops would have made a meat ball of the Vietcong in a matter of weeks. This is just a fact bro. A rag tag army cant fight such a big war against such an overwhelming power without some kind of outside support and emerge victorious. This is a simply fact

 

[Brainsucker]

bro, I wonder of your mentality.

are you happy to see the americans killing our people because they belonged to the "wrong" side? do you feel happiness when the americans killed en mass our people? after all, americans are foreigners.

my father once served in the southern vietnamese navy, but I feel no happiness to count the bodies of dead vietcongs. you feel so happy. do you want to declare the US won the war? by all standards, America lost the war. they even admit it, they still suffer the vietnam trauma. there are endless books/films about the war. why do you want to say otherwise?

Do you want to deny
- the high casualties of US soldiers, dead as well as wounded
- the high and unsustainable cost of the war
- the collapse of the dollar, as well as the bond to gold
- the end of public support at home and international communnity
- the collapse of moral and fighting spirit of the army. after the vietnam war, the US abandoned the conscripts, and changed to professional voluntary army.

Sure, North Vietnam suffered heavy casualties, but they won the war und united the country. The Soviet Union suffered millions of deaths during the war. by your standard, Germany won the war, because the Nazi suffered less.

Gambit is an American. He's also the United States of American Soldier. So please do understand where his loyalty lies. If he comes from Vietnamese Ethnicity, then it is the culture that make him a Vietnamese, not his political stand. I'm sure if the Vietnam - America war ever happen again, Gambit loyalty will goes to Uncle Sam. You should respect him.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

bro, I wonder of your mentality.

are you happy to see the americans killing our people because they belonged to the "wrong" side? do you feel happiness when the americans killed en mass our people? after all, americans are foreigners.

my father once served in the southern vietnamese navy, but I feel no happiness to count the bodies of dead vietcongs. you feel so happy. do you want to declare the US won the war? by all standards, America lost the war. they even admit it, they still suffer the vietnam trauma. there are endless books/films about the war. why do you want to say otherwise?

Do you want to deny
- the high casualties of US soldiers, dead as well as wounded
- the high and unsustainable cost of the war
- the collapse of the dollar, as well as the bond to gold
- the end of public support at home and international communnity
- the collapse of moral and fighting spirit of the army. after the vietnam war, the US abandoned the conscripts, and changed to professional voluntary army.

Sure, North Vietnam suffered heavy casualties, but they won the war und united the country. The Soviet Union suffered millions of deaths during the war. by your standard, Germany won the war, because the Nazi suffered less.

If you notice objectively these are the facts -

i. (North)Vietnam won the war.
ii. South Vietnam lost the war.
iii. US Armed Forces (as long as they stayed) did not lose.
iv. US Govt. lost the war, not the US Armed forces.

Now you are friends and have buried the terrible past, but when you look at US and Japan and their current bonhomie, you know that cooperation can benefit you both. Best wishes.

 

[Viet]

Gambit is an American. He's also the United States of American Soldier. So please do understand where his loyalty lies. If he comes from Vietnamese Ethnicity, then it is the culture that make him a Vietnamese, not his political stand. I'm sure if the Vietnam - America war ever happen again, Gambit loyalty will goes to Uncle Sam. You should respect him.

gambit was born in vietnam, has vietnamese parents. for every vietnamese, he is vietnamese. similar like me. that matters.
regardless whether he has american/german/french passport or not. no matter whether he is atheist, capalist, anti-communist or terrorist. No, if he visits vietnam, his fatherland, he is a vietnamese, not american. you don´t need to agree with that.

it is his personal matter what he does and makes with his private life. but for every vietnamese, vietnamese nation and patriotism are very important. other vietnamese would view him as a traitor if he acts otherwise.

 

[Zsari]

What i think Gambit and i were trying to say is that, the U.S military didnt lose the war per se, their officials/diplomats/presidents decisions did. U.S military planners/high ranking officals knew what strategy they needed to win the war, but they were constrained by the diecision the officials in washington made against their decisions.

That's a moot point. War is an extension of politics. If you cannot achieve any of your objective, political & military, you've lost that war. It matters not if you win all the battles.

Moreover the main reason for this as i said earlier was China and U.S.S.R assistance/support to the north vietnamese soldiers through out the war. Had the U.S.S.R and even more so China not provided support/arms/training/supplies/refuge/even covert troops/miliotary advisers to their communist buddy north vietnamese troops, then the U.S and its South vietnamese allies would run over the north very easily in a matter of weeks at best. Soviet and Chinese assiatance, coupled with fear of Chinese involvement in the war which prevented a full scale ground invasion in the north by the U.S/SVP was the main reason the war got prolonged for soooo long without either party winning decisively until the U.S decided to withdraw.

So if anything Blame the Russia and China for the war claiming sooo many Vietnamese soldiers/civilians and being prolonged for so long. since without them, it wouldnt even have been a war at all, just a walk over.

If not for Russia & China, Vietnam would still be in two. That would indeed be a better result. I do consider that being one of Mao's mistake. But then again, French & US with little knowledge on the history of the region really doesn't help themselves. They would have built a more stable state in the south if they can restore the state of Champa. BTW, most Vietnamese are completely unaware of the Chinese assistance during the war due to their government propaganda. Unlike the Korean war, China had at its highest point 16 division with a total strength of 150,000 already in North Vietnam. So if anyone think China was bluffing when it warns the US not to cross into N.Vietnam, I don't think the US decision makers has any such delusion.

 

[mike2000]

If you notice objectively these are the facts -

i. (North)Vietnam won the war.
ii. South Vietnam lost the war.
iii. US Armed Forces (as long as they stayed) did not lose.
iv. US Govt. lost the war, not the US Armed forces.

Now you are friends and have buried the terrible past, but when you look at US and Japan and their current bonhomie, you know that cooperation can benefit you both. Best wishes.

Well said bro. Thats exactly the point me and Gambit were trying to make. The U.S govt policies and foreign powers support for the Vietcong (Soviets and Chinese) made the U.S govt lost the war, but U.S soldiers didn't lost the war. Without these two factors the Vietnam wouldnt have even been a war in the first place, just a walk over.

 

[gambit]

bro, I wonder of your mentality.

Do not wonder about my mentality. I see things clear enough.

are you happy to see the americans killing our people because they belonged to the "wrong" side? do you feel happiness when the americans killed en mass our people? after all, americans are foreigners.

So in your mind, objective analyses equals to sympathy ?

my father once served in the southern vietnamese navy, but I feel no happiness to count the bodies of dead vietcongs. you feel so happy. do you want to declare the US won the war? by all standards, America lost the war. they even admit it, they still suffer the vietnam trauma. there are endless books/films about the war. why do you want to say otherwise?

Whenever you read any American, even a politician, said the US 'lost' in Viet Nam, you should understand the proper context of what is a war.

In any war, either you achieve your political goals, or you do not. So in that context, if you failed to achieve your political goals, then you 'lost' the war. But a component of any war is the military aspect, which is the technicality of how to win battles that either lead to the vanquish of the other side or the voluntary submission of the same. The separation of the political and military sides of any war have always been a vital part of the study of political science and war.

Do you want to deny...

What is there to deny ? Just because I chose the bring attention to the military aspect of the Vietnam War that mean I am denying facts to make the US look good ?

Sure, North Vietnam suffered heavy casualties, but they won the war und united the country. The Soviet Union suffered millions of deaths during the war. by your standard, Germany won the war, because the Nazi suffered less.

No. That is YOUR distortion of my position. It is a necessary distortion from a lack of relevant experience, like military service for example. You need to distort my position because you have an emotional investment into the myth that the NVA was somehow the military superior to the US military, of which if you take that argument to any military academy, you will be laughed out of the classroom.

Fact: Vo Nguyen Giap lost every set-piece battle he ever engaged in, including the ones against the French.

Do you know what is a 'set-piece' battle ? Look it up.

Giap was at best a guerrilla warfare specialist. He did not came from a military family or even a cursory military background. He was made 'general' by virtue of his close friendship to Ho Chi Minh. At the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, artillery officers the world over were unanimous that the siege should NOT have lasted months. The Viet Minh army had every advantages possible in the textbooks of warfare, from manpower to arms to positions. And yet Giap's ignorance of technical issues, from deployment to usage of those advantages, dragged the siege out to months. Artillery officers who analyzed Giap's positions opined that the French garrison would have been destroyed in weeks, not months, if those positions were under the command of any modern army, and by modern they mean at that time -- 1950s. Not the 1990s or even 1980s.

Analyzing anything objectively, from science to politics, without emotional biases is crucial in finding out what went wrong and what went right. You think the current Chinese military got this way by emotional attachment to its revolutionary past ? No, the PLA got this way because of the rude awakening of Desert Storm. You look at the PLA today and you see the US Army, US Air Force, US Navy, and the US Marines, all over.

Stop being so blindered by your nationalism. It is grossly misplaced.

 

[Viet]

If you notice objectively these are the facts -

i. (North)Vietnam won the war.
ii. South Vietnam lost the war.
iii. US Armed Forces (as long as they stayed) did not lose.
iv. US Govt. lost the war, not the US Armed forces.

Now you are friends and have buried the terrible past, but when you look at US and Japan and their current bonhomie, you know that cooperation can benefit you both. Best wishes.

the US was and is a military superpower. until now, nobody successfully defeated them on battlefields.

just give you a hint: during the vietnam war, the US sent 22 nuclear powered aircraft carriers into the battle. Alone that makes scary. the firepower of the US army is more than most of other major powers combined. the military supports from the Soviet Union and China North Vietnam received were nothing compared to what the US had deployed in vietnam. at the height of the war, more than 650,000 US soldiers were stationed. That is more than double the figure the US sent to Korea during the war.

but let us forget the war. that is long gone.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

the US was and is a military superpower. until now, nobody successfully defeated them on battlefields.

just give you a hint: during the vietnam war, the US sent 22 nuclear powered aircraft carriers into the battle. Alone that makes scary. the firepower of the US army is more than most of other major powers combined. the military supports from the Soviet Union and China North Vietnam received were nothing compared to what the US had deployed in vietnam. at the height of the war, more than 650,000 US soldiers were stationed. That is more than double the figure the US sent to Korea during the war.

but let us forget the war. that is long gone.

You won the war. I don't doubt this.

 

[Speeder 2]

"Why the USA may go to war in the South China Sea - TransConflict"

... because by saying so, he could fool a lot, a lot of low IQers, perhaps himself included as well.

 

[SirHatesALot]

There wont be any war in SCS.

 

[Pakistan First]

US won't risk a direct confrontation. It is maintaining a "keep" aka, a mistress in the region who will dance to any US tune on the drop of a dime. That mistress is enough to keep China engaged for the time being, or so the rats want US to believe.