Why the TTP is undefeatable

[Sayfullah]

That's what you think in your mind because Pakistan as a geography is meaningless for you. You think its weak and pathetic and the only thing holding it together is a religion from thousands of miles away. It's just a reflection of your lack of patriotism and respect for our civilization.

Faith is important and its a private matter for your homes. Its not supposed to be political. The concept of a nation state is inherently secular and its allowed to Pakistan consolidate its territory, organise and arm itself for the first time in its history. So its working and your notion is debunked.

A secular Pakistan will allow her to take its true form, impenetrable against 5th gen warfare and psyops. India's worst nightmare as their way in is through corrupt mullahs. India has always encouraged extremism in Pakistan along with Sharifs and Zardaris. A secular Pakistan will destroy provincialism along with their corrupt ruling elites.

Why should I as a Punjabi share my land and resources with non Punjabis while fighting my fellow Punjabi from across the border if Pakistan is secular?
For me Islam is first and always will be first. Due to Islam being first Pakistan is second because we are united cuz of Islam.
If Islam is removed from Pakistan then its Islam first then my ethnicity.
This isn’t lack of patriotism but evidence of my patriotism because Pakistan was created on the name of Islam not secularism. Before 1947 there was no Pakistan. Only due to Muslims wanting an Islamic state did the idea of Pakistan come into existence.

Many in Pakistan think like me. Have fun fighting the majority.

The nuclear umbrella will stop separatism. Right now its only a handful of Baloch rebels and TTP in FATA which has origins in Afghanistan. There is absolutely no way Sindh, Punjab and AJK will ever separate as they need each other and the nuclear umbrella. The core of Pakistan is secure.

If Pakistan was not nuclear and the threat of India and Afghanistan was not present then we can say this could be a possibility.

You’re gonna nuke your own population?
Pakistan’s extinction isn’t needed for Pakistan to be a failed state which it essentially already is. A civil war would cause irreparable damage to Pakistan which will haunt it for a long time. Your nuke’s can only help you so much.

 

[Sayfullah]

That's right now - in the future these small-scale insurgencies could escalate into civil war level like Bangladesh if you give them enough ammo.

We need the whole of Pakistan and every square inch of land to be secure - retaining our territorial integrity by all costs is the utmost importance.

Tackling something like that becomes difficult because nukes are simply a last minute resort and primarily used against foreign targets.

Hence why Pakistan needs to build a strong national identity in the meantime, and demographics need to become more intertwined, rather than colonies of single ethnicities.

This is the only way to curtail separatist elements and secure long-term survivability and stability. These obvious societal fault-lines are very easily exploited by hostile anti-state elements.

We need to work on refining and developing our counter-insurgency capabilities to an effective fighting force.

If Pakistan becomes secular who is going to fight these terrorists and rebels? Right now soldier’s go and fight to be shaheed and place islam above Pakistan and fight to go to jannah. How you gonna send people to fight when their war can’t be islamically justified? We aren’t usa or Europe. You think our secularists will fight? They would be the first to leave the country when time for war comes.

Let’s stick to Jinnah and Iqbal’s Pakistan. Let’s not mess with the foundation that builds us. That’s how we can make Pakistan more united and make it prosper.

Communist Afghanistan tried imposing communism and secularism on conservative afghans. What was the result? Afghans threw the communists out. A lot of Pakistans population currently is as conservative if not more conservative than Afghans. Even currently we have people from all of Pakistan’s ethnicities fighting under ttp or Daesh against us. Why commit suicide by becoming secular and giving these terrorist groups what they want the most.

 

[TheSolution]

If Pakistan becomes secular who is going to fight these terrorists and rebels? Right now soldier’s go and fight to be shaheed and place islam above Pakistan and fight to go to jannah. How you gonna send people to fight when their war can’t be islamically justified? We aren’t usa or Europe. You think our secularists will fight? They would be the first to leave the country when time for war comes.

Let’s stick to Jinnah and Iqbal’s Pakistan. Let’s not mess with the foundation that builds us. That’s how we can make Pakistan more united and make it prosper.

I'm not advocating for a secular Pakistan - I'm telling him why a secular Pakistan is a very bad idea because Pakistan's foundation, once religion is removed, becomes very weak and cannot stand alone.

I prefer an approach like Iran's - they are incredibly nationalistic people but also can be very religious at the same time. (Apart from the extreme liberal parts and excluding their mullahs who force things, but I mean their societal mindset)

Pan-Islamism is stupid because the world is nationalist including the Muslim world, Arabs care about Arabs and even fight between themselves, Turks about Turks, Afghans about Afghans, etc.

I don't want Pakistan to be the loyal servant who wastes its own resources and precious time helping others who do not reciprocate. We need to pursue our own interests.

Brotherhood is built on mutual interests, if I am going to help you, I expect that help back. If I am going to respect you, then I expect that respect back.

 

[epebble]

1,500 years ago, the Silk Road passed through Afghanistan, and there was an endless stream of merchants. If someone said that Afghanistan was barbaric and uncivilized at that time. Will be collectively ridiculed by ancient Asians. Too bad there is no cultural connection between present Afghanistan and ancient Afghanistan. Artifacts unearthed in Afghanistan prove my point.

Afghanistan had a an entirely different culture 1,500 years back:

Kushano-Sasanian Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They have as much connection to today's Afghans as people of Americas and Australia have with those who lived there 1,500 years ago.

 

[TheSolution]

Afghanistan had a an entirely different culture 1,500 years back:

Kushano-Sasanian Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They have as much connection to today's Afghans as people of Americas and Australia have with those who lived there 1,500 years ago.

Are they even the same people - ethnically who do those groups relate to the most in modern times? Probably the Persian people

 

[epebble]

Are they even the same people - ethnically who do those groups relate to the most in modern times? Probably the Persian people

Unlikely, 1,500 years is a long time and populations move (and mix) around, especially in that area as it was a fulcrum of Middle East, Central Asia and gateway to South Asia. But it is also the culture. Those people were Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Hindus. No resemblance at all to today's Afghans.

 

[AlKardai]

If Pakistan becomes secular who is going to fight these terrorists and rebels? Right now soldier’s go and fight to be shaheed and place islam above Pakistan and fight to go to jannah. How you gonna send people to fight when their war can’t be islamically justified? We aren’t usa or Europe. You think our secularists will fight? They would be the first to leave the country when time for war comes.

Let’s stick to Jinnah and Iqbal’s Pakistan. Let’s not mess with the foundation that builds us. That’s how we can make Pakistan more united and make it prosper.

Communist Afghanistan tried imposing communism and secularism on conservative afghans. What was the result? Afghans threw the communists out. A lot of Pakistans population currently is as conservative if not more conservative than Afghans. Even currently we have people from all of Pakistan’s ethnicities fighting under ttp or Daesh against us. Why commit suicide by becoming secular and giving these terrorist groups what they want the most.

The MenaceToSociety fool has been staying in Turkiye for a while. He's got his head stuck up his A55 for some reason about the secularism. When he doesn't seem to realise that the entire reason that Turkiye is more advanced than Pakistan is simply because they have a completely different mindset to that of the Pakistanis.

Also, I completely agree with you. Without Islam being a core principle of Pakistan, we will never be able to stand as a state. Islam is ingrained in our very existence, in the same way that a soul is ingrained within the body. Remove the soul, and the body becomes lifeless.

There's a very specific reason that people in Pakistan will never give in to Indians, and thats for the simple reason that Islam does not allow Cultural hegemony to occur under the banner of a polytheist religion.

Our State's ideal is Faith, Unity and discipline for a reason.
As @Nasr once put it:

"For one cannot put a Price on Unity, nor can one quantify the enormity of faith in Allah and if the latter is achieved, then unity and discipline will follow like a river flows into the sea"

Whilst we were a part of the Indian state, we were some of the most Humiliated people on earth. Allah gave us the honour we sought through a state of Islam. If we ever forsake Islam within the basis of our state, Allah will definitely humiliate us again and we shall be damned.

 

[TheSolution]

The MenaceToSociety fool has been staying in Turkiye for a while. He's got his head stuck up his A55 for some reason about the secularism. When he doesn't seem to realise that the entire reason that Turkiye is more advanced than Pakistan is simply because they have a completely different mindset to that of the Pakistanis.

Also, I completely agree with you. Without Islam being a core principle of Pakistan, we will never be able to stand as a state. Islam is ingrained in our very existence, in the same way that a soul is ingrained within the body. Remove the soul, and the body becomes lifeless.

There's a very specific reason that people in Pakistan will never give in to Indians, and thats for the simple reason that Islam does not allow Cultural hegemony to occur under the banner of a polytheist religion.

Our State's ideal is Faith, Unity and discipline for a reason.
As @Nasr once put it:

"For one cannot put a Price on Unity, nor can one quantify the enormity of faith in Allah and if the latter is achieved, then unity and discipline will follow like a river flows into the sea"

Whilst we were a part of the Indian state, we were some of the most Humiliated people on earth. Allah gave us the honour we sought through a state of Islam. If we ever forsake Islam within the basis of our state, Allah will definitely humiliate us again and we shall be damned.

Agreed.

Pakistan needs to focus on developing & maturing a strong cohesive national identity based on the inheritance of South Asian Islamic history, and also emphasising on our indigenous civilisations and historical figures. To integrate the country as one under a single umbrella over time.

It is important to have a very nationalistic population that strongly pursues it's interests but one that also values their religious values. Both can co-exist and Iran's society is the prime example of this.

This will also bring more overall stability, subdue separatist and Islamic insurgencies both. Crushing them easily.

This is what Allama Iqbal and M.A. Jinnah envisioned but our leaders became confused along the way due to outside influence & pressure.

This is what Pakistan's goal should be, striving to create a modern society which pursues scientific & technological advancements but still retain it's Islamic + cultural values. A beacon of indigenous and South Asian Islamic culture & history.

 

[AlKardai]

Agreed.

Pakistan needs to focus on developing & maturing a strong cohesive national identity based on the inheritance of South Asian Islamic history, and also emphasising on our indigenous civilisations and historical figures. To integrate the country as one under a single umbrella over time.

It is important to have a very nationalistic population that strongly pursues it's interests but one that also values their religious values. Both can co-exist and Iran's society is the prime example of this.

This will also bring more overall stability, subdue separatist and Islamic insurgencies both. Crushing them easily.

This is what Allama Iqbal and M.A. Jinnah envisioned but our leaders became confused along the way due to outside influence & pressure.

This is what Pakistan's goal should be, striving to create a modern society which pursues scientific & technological advancements but still retain it's Islamic + cultural values. A beacon of indigenous and South Asian Islamic culture & history.

Absolutely.

I agree with everything you said, and actually believe this is the purest form of the Founding fathers' ideology for Pakistan.

With a firm basis in Islam, but a clear acceptance for science and forward thinking means that all of the TTP cavemen ideologies will suddenly look outdated by hundreds of years, and they will pathetically fail to gather any standing amongst the People of Pakistan.

This is my true hope for the state of Pakistan and is something that I reckon, will be achieved in the next hundred years In Sha Allah

 

[blain2]

The only way to deal with this is to pull some levers with Taliban without boiling the waters. Going too hard on Taliban works against our interests and for those working against us.

Sanctions on travel across the borders, greater accountability from those living in FATA and providing manpower to TTP seem to be options worth considering.

 

[TheSolution]

The only way to deal with this is to pull some levers with Taliban without boiling the waters. Going too hard on Taliban works against our interests and for those working against us.

Sanctions on travel across the borders, greater accountability from those living in FATA and providing manpower to TTP seem to be options worth considering.

I have a hunch which I'm not certain on but I think those sitting in Kabul that want to focus on internal development of Afghanistan may have given Pakistan the greenlight to strike TTP infrastructure but both sides will deny it.

 

[blain2]

I have a hunch which I'm not certain on but I think those sitting in Kabul that want to focus on internal development of Afghanistan may have given Pakistan the greenlight to strike TTP infrastructure but both sides will deny it.

I hope we don't take the bait and strike inside Afghanistan. It's the Taliban's mess, they should clean it up.

 

[manpk77]

Why should I as a Punjabi share my land and resources with non Punjabis while fighting my fellow Punjabi from across the border if Pakistan is secular?
For me Islam is first and always will be first. Due to Islam being first Pakistan is second because we are united cuz of Islam.
If Islam is removed from Pakistan then its Islam first then my ethnicity.
This isn’t lack of patriotism but evidence of my patriotism because Pakistan was created on the name of Islam not secularism. Before 1947 there was no Pakistan. Only due to Muslims wanting an Islamic state did the idea of Pakistan come into existence.

Many in Pakistan think like me. Have fun fighting the majority.


You’re gonna nuke your own population?
Pakistan’s extinction isn’t needed for Pakistan to be a failed state which it essentially already is. A civil war would cause irreparable damage to Pakistan which will haunt it for a long time. Your nuke’s can only help you so much.

Any thing is possible, the army can go to any extent even Dhaka kind of crackdown is on cards.

 

[TheSolution]

I hope we don't take the bait and strike inside Afghanistan. It's the Taliban's mess, they should clean it up.

While I do think they would not want to do it themselves, to protect their relationship with the TTP as they are ethnic and ideological brothers so it becomes morally difficult for them to turn on them, but we ideally should force TTA to make it explicitly and openly clear to them that Afghanistan won't be used as a safe heaven for them if relations are to be positive between both states.

But Pakistan should also build a strong counter-narrative against the TTP internally by labelling them as Khawarij through all national media assets, demoralise them as much as possible and also minimise any support they may find in our population.

As long as the vast majority of our population doesn't see any of our laws as "anti-Islamic" - they won't buy the TTP's narrative of calling Pakistan a 'murtad' state apart from a minority of pure extremist. It will lower the recruitment drive.

After that the situation will be easier to deal with as we'll have the edge in narrative and morale.

 

[chinasun]

South Asian civilization has a long history, and countless heroes have emerged in history. There are also many world powers. Many are Islamic countries. South Asian Islamic culture will give you a strong confidence in your identity. Countless South Asian Islamic heroes in history will bring you strength and unity. It will bring Pakistan the confidence in its identity that it must possess to become a powerful country. Confidence does not necessarily mean success, but lack of confidence will definitely fail.