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Why the new tax is a good idea

Really, throwing India in there is like comparing apples to oranges.

How so? You are discussing VAT. Who else would you compare it to? The discussion was whether the tax of 15% on hotels was high. High compared to what? The bringing in of the tax rate presently applicable in India, a country where VAT was introduced just a few years ago is germane to the point being made.
 
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How so? You are discussing VAT. Who else would you compare it to? The discussion was whether the tax of 15% on hotels was high. High compared to what? The bringing in of the tax rate presently applicable in India, a country where VAT was introduced just a few years ago is germane to the point being made.

Here we go again... The dynamics of one coutry apply to another how? Just look at Spain and Ireland, both are part of the EU, both have been bailed out from the central bank yet both have differing economic factors to consider.

You can't just say Indian VAT is 27% and your 18% omg you have it easy, just chill...


Averaqe monthly salary in India: $45
Source: Wall Street Journal, 8/18/2005

Average monthly salary in Pakistan: $41
Source: Wall Street Journal , 8/18/2005

India:

Growth Rate: 7.4% (2009)

Inflation Rate: 10.9%

Labour Force: 467 million (2009 est.)
Labour Force Sectors:
  1. agriculture: 52%
  2. industry: 14%
  3. services: 34% (2009 est.)

Jobless Rate: 10.7% (2009)

Population bellow the poverty line:25%


Pakistan:

Growth Rate: 4.2%

Inflation: 13.6%

Jobless: 14%

Labour Force: 53.78 million
Labour Force Occupation:
  1. agriculture: 43%
  2. industry: 20.3%
  3. services: 36.6% (2005 est.)

Public Debt: 46.2%

Population bellow the poverty line: 24%


Your economy is larger, your workforce is larger, your growth rate is better, your economy is stable, you have less inflation, you benefit from investor confidence.


Please lets be fair, you and i both know comparing Indian tax practices to Pakistan is nonsensical..
 
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If the taxes are properly collect then current percentage is more than enough and infact we will end up with a surplus to spend..the problem is Pakistanis feudal lords like nawaz and zardari who are blatantly paying few thousand rupees tax over several billion rupees worth of assets. Not only its shameful but a cruel joke with the nation..and squeezes odinary businessmen to take their business to somewhere more favorable..dubai, bahrain and now qatar are destinations of choice.


actually the whole idea of RGST is to collect the taxes properly. can you show me if taxes have been increased? no, instead they have been decreased to a rate of 15% which was earlier fluctuating between 17-25%.

all the other necessary items on which 60% of pakistanis spend 65% of their total income still remain exempted.

as far as small business man is concerned, read this:
• A uniform enhanced annual exemption threshold of Rs.7.5 million (which is presently Rs. 5 million) shall be applied to keep small businesses including small traders/retailers/cottage industry out of mandatory tax compliance

can you show me how will any ordinary person suffer from this reform?
 
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Taxing matters


By Cyril Almeida

FIRST things first. The reformed general sales tax (RGST) is bad for consumers. Which means it’s bad for the poor and the less well-off.

The reason is pretty straightforward. RGST is an indirect tax, i.e. a tax on goods and services. Which means it will get passed on to the end consumer, which includes the poor and the less well-off.

Yes, the government wants to harp on the positive aspects, for obvious reasons: new taxes on leather goods and carpets, for example, are unlikely to hurt the poor because they don’t use carpets or leather goods.

But look at all the stuff that is getting taxed. And for that we need go no further than the information ministry’s sixpage handout on RGST. ‘Surgical items’ — which means your next trip to a doctor may cost more. ‘Pharmaceuticals (other than life saving)’ — which means the next time you have a mild illness you’ll pay more to get better. ‘Stationery items, dairy products’ — self-explanatory.

But, and here’s the rub, there is a very different kind of problem which has ravaged the poor in recent years: inflation. In part, the fiscal deficit the country has been running has helped keep inflation high. Now, with the floods having added colossal expenditures to the overall budget, the fiscal deficit, in the absence of revenue-generating measures, would balloon again — further driving up inflation.

So for the poor and the less well off, it may be a case of damned if they do, damned if they don’t: fight off (theoretically) RGST and inflation would rise; accept RGST and end up paying more from their pockets.

There is, of course, a better solution: tax something else, or someone else, i.e. the rich. Which is why the government has cleverly weaved in the ‘flood tax’ on incomes. People and businesses paying income tax, a tiny percentage, will for six months have to pay 10 per cent more income tax. It’s really just a ruse, allowing the government to claim that it is moving towards a fairer tax system.

In truth, at the end of the six months, the country will have an inarguably more unjust and more inequitable tax system, because by then the RGST regime would have permanently expanded indirect taxes while direct taxes, i.e. income tax, would return to the original, low, level.

To understand why this happens, you need to know something about your politicians and how the state succumbs to special interests. Finance Minister Hafeez Sheikh gave an insight into this world earlier this week when he candidly admitted that as late as 11.30 the night before this year’s budget speech he was receiving calls pressing him to exclude a capital-gains tax on the stock market.

The rich not only know how to protect themselves, they are far more organised and serious about it than the average person. The average schmuck working nine-to-five for a pittance will bend to the government’s will and pony up the extra 10 per cent income tax (realistically, he will have no option because it will be deducted at source by his employer).

But the big boys have a bagful of tricks that the average schmuck can only dream of. Access is of course one thing. Hafeez Sheikh is notoriously inaccessible to the media. But stock-market king pins lobbying against a capital-gains tax on their business can reach him at half eleven the night before the federal budget is unveiled.

Even better than access, however, is being there yourself to look after your interests. Sorry, we can’t tax agricultural income because it’s a provincial subject. Oh, how did that happen? Well, y’know, we transferred it to the provinces in the 18th Amendment. Oh, you mean the provinces where the big landlords control more seats? Yeah, but it was all about strengthening the federation. Straight face.

Is there any hope of a better, more just system emerging? At present, no. There is no will for it nor is there the capacity. The clumsiness with which the government has handled the RGST issue is indicative of that. A systemic overhaul or deep reform by these guys, in this incarnation, at the present time, is extremely unlikely.

But consider this: the most politically damaging thing a government could do — pare down subsidies at a time of soaring inflation and low growth — this government has done. Why?

Economics and finance have a logic of their own, logic that every government eventually has to bow before. In 2008, the option was to either embrace the IMF or slide towards economic oblivion. Purists may argue about that, but it was effectively the only choice in the real world where politics and economics intersect.

The same goes for the business of taxation. Eventually, economic logic will kick in. It’s happened already while setting the rate of RGST: 15 per cent, two per cent lower than the existing standard rate. In this year’s budget, the government experimented with a temporary, one per cent increase in the sales-tax rate. The consequences have been inevitable.

While in the short-term the demand for goods taxed stays more or less constant (people take time to adjust habits and consumption patterns), it eventually begins to sag — higher price translates into lower demand, meaning you can’t infinitely raise or rely on indirect taxes.

So it will be with RGST. It really is a band-aid solution, meant to nominally increase the tax-to-GDP ratio in the medium term. Eventually, other measures will be required.

At that point the RGST Trojan Horse may be tapped: once you’ve documented the production and supply chain, as the RGST aims to do, you’ve got proof of how much business so many more businesses are doing.

At present, only the retail level is captured by sales tax. But under RGST, which is really the value-added tax by a different name, the tax machinery will learn about the activities of manufacturers, marketers, distributors and wholesalers — exponentially increasing the potential targets of the taxman for things like income tax.

The problem? The same as always: special interests. What the taxman can document, the politician can scuttle. Just like agriculture and textile special interests have worked to keep those sectors largely out of the tax net, so will other, newly taxed sectors work to acquire clout in the corridors of power.

But then in the end they will still have to make a choice: do they want Pakistan to swim or sink economically?

At that point, you better hope you have a lifeboat handy.
 
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Tax bills sail through Senate amid uproar

By Ahmad Hassan
ISLAMABAD, Nov 26: The opposition and some coalition partners tried on Friday to block the approval by the Senate of reports on reformed general sales tax (RGST) and flood surcharge, but Chairman Farooq H. Naek declared them ‘approved’ by a voice vote amid shouts of ‘no, not accepted’.

While the opponents cried foul as the chairman put to voice vote the two reports which had been prepared and signed by their representatives in the Senate Standing Committee on Finance, PMLQ’s senators walked out, saying they could not be part of a process to burden the masses with more taxes.

It was the second walkout of the day as the entire opposition, led by members belonging to the ANP and JUI-F, had left the house at the start of the session in protest against large-scale arrests of the Awami National Party’s workers in Karachi overnight.

It took hardly three minutes for the Senate chairman to rush the two reports through amid chaotic scenes.

The opponents wanted a vote count rather than voice vote on the reports, which contained 15 recommendations from the house to the National Assembly on the RGST and flood surcharge.

Parties opposing the RGST termed it a ‘black day’ for Senate after the chairman rejected their demand for a vote count because, according to them, the voice vote did not produce a clear majority for the ruling coalition.

They claimed that members opposing the recommendations regarding the RGST might have been in majority, but the chairman ruled: “I think that ayes have it, so the recommendations are adopted.” Law Minister Babar Awan set about ridiculing the MQM and JUI-F for opposing the approval of reports which their representatives in the house committee had signed.

Legislators belonging to the PML-N, PML-Q, MQM, JUI-F and those hailing from Balochistan and Fata, talking separately to media, vowed not to allow its approval by the National Assembly.

They criticised what they termed bulldozing of the bill by the chairman and said it was against the interests of the people.

In an interesting move, the chairman expunged his own remarks in support of the treasury lawmakers after Zafar Ali Shah of PML-N took exception to them.

After hearing arguments from both sides, the chairman declared against the rules Wasim Sajjad’s bid to send a recommendation to the National Assembly not to approve the bills.

Before the vote, Mr Sajjad said he was staging a walkout in protest against the chairman’s ruling and because the PML-Q did not want to be part of a process leading to approval of recommendations about bills rejected by it.

The BNP-A’s Kulsoom Peveen used some unparliamentary words against those opposing the bills after recommending amendments to them in the standing committee. Her party had earlier opposed the bills.

Change of heart The Awami National Party had a visible change of heart (apparently following a meeting between Asfandyar Wali Khan and President Asif Ali Zardari) as Haji Mohammad Adeel and Ilyas Bilour criticised those opposing the bills.

Senator Raza Rabbani stuck to his stand that the RGST bill was not in accordance with the Constitution because the federation was not authorised to legislate on matters falling in the pro vincial jurisdiction, like taxation on services.

Expectations that strong opposition by coalition partners and the opposition might force the government to withdraw the contentious bill, like the National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) last year, proved wrong.

While all senators belonging to the MQM and JUI-F, led by Minister Babar Khan Ghauri and Maulana Ghafoor Haideri, stood up to disrupt the proceedings, the opposition members kept sitting as silent spectators.

When the chairman repeatedly asked the standing committee’s Chairman Ahmad Ali to table the reports and told him that otherwise someone else would be asked to do so, he fulfilled his responsibility after offering resistance for some time.

Amid the shouting, Mr Ghauri said to the chairman: “You should not bulldoze – you are duty-bound to resolve the matter as custodian of the house in complete impartiality.” Sabir Baloch of the PPP expressed dismay over an unprecedented example of a minister speaking in the house against the government.

Nabi Bangash of the ANP called upon the MQM minister to resign before confronting the government.

Azam Swati, a minister from the JUI-F, appealed to the chair to call a vote because 11 of his party’s 12 lawmakers were present to oppose the controversial bills.

Dr Abdul Malik of the National Party said: “We have rejected these bills and will continue to oppose them.” Interior Minister Rehman Malik remained active throughout the proceedings and kept pacing up and down the house to persuade the opponents to soften their stand.

Dr Abdul Hafeez Sheikh and Hina Rabbani Khar, the Minister and the Minister of State for Finance, oversaw the proceedings without rising from their seats even once.
 
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There is no real reason for them to be good. If the government were to impose already impose the taxes the poor were paying they would get them money. Corrupt officials don't even pay the electricity bills.
 
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Taxes are never a good idea...

bloody hell... tomorrow we will have a tax on having windows in the house and on the air that we breath...

ludicrous... a way to suck the blood of the poor even further
 
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Taxing matters


By Cyril Almeida

The reason is pretty straightforward. RGST is an indirect tax, i.e. a tax on goods and services. Which means it will get passed on to the end consumer, which includes the poor and the less well-off.

its not a new tax. consumers are already paying for it. however, now they will be paying less as the rate has been fixed to 15% instead of the current 17-25%.


But look at all the stuff that is getting taxed. And for that we need go no further than the information ministry’s sixpage handout on RGST. ‘Surgical items’ — which means your next trip to a doctor may cost more. ‘Pharmaceuticals (other than life saving)’ — which means the next time you have a mild illness you’ll pay more to get better. ‘Stationery items, dairy products’ — self-explanatory.

all i need to give is 10 rupees when i go to the government hospital for check-up. and its the government hospitals where most of the poor go for their medical. meaning increased cost of surgical items will be borne by the hospital.

as far as the private hospitals/clinics are concerned where rich ppl go, why not should they pay the tax on the equipment they use?

Now, with the floods having added colossal expenditures to the overall budget, the fiscal deficit, in the absence of revenue-generating measures, would balloon again — further driving up inflation.


so what is causing this fiscal deficit? low or no taxes. its for this reason govt has to borrow money from the SBP


The average schmuck working nine-to-five for a pittance will bend to the government’s will and pony up the extra 10 per cent income tax (realistically, he will have no option because it will be deducted at source by his employer).

18 Rs. on income of 25,000 per month. is it really too much to ask for?


But consider this: the most politically damaging thing a government could do — pare down subsidies at a time of soaring inflation and low growth — this government has done. Why?

ok. lets not reduce subsidy and keep our public without taxes. now what? yes we get low inflation (may be not as floods would still destroy ur crop) but we also go bankrupt. lets have a party now......


So it will be with RGST. It really is a band-aid solution, meant to nominally increase the tax-to-GDP ratio in the medium term. Eventually, other measures will be required.

yes. definitely.
 
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We should abolish all taxes except for business and government sector. Let everyone pay their taxes honestly and we shall have a surplus very soon..the requirement here is not to increase taxation but to enforce taxation.
 
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aj correct me if I'm wrong but RGST, like any VAT imposes 15% at the value added on each step, right? That ET blog is factually incorrect and misleading since the lady gives an example of 15% on the total value at each step. (like anchors lying that it's an additional tax and often saying it's applicable on food too).
 
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aj correct me if I'm wrong but RGST, like any VAT imposes 15% at the value added on each step, right? That ET blog is factually incorrect and misleading since the lady gives an example of 15% on the total value at each step. (like anchors lying that it's an additional tax and often saying it's applicable on food too).

i dont know which ET blog u r referring towards but YES you are right. its 15% on value added at each step
 
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i dont know which ET blog u r referring towards but YES you are right. its 15% on value added at each step

See this one :- http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/82035-why-new-tax-good-idea.html#post1294760

My point was it's not just added on each step, it's imposed on the value added at each step i.e. on the additional amount added on each step. The writer in that post gives a wrong example and adds 15% on the total value at each step - which is not the way it works. I see somebody saner has already raised the point in the comments of that blogpost and the writer has addressed that as complex words and rejected that she's factually wrong (see the last para for the example of the imposition she gives which is wrong).
 
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See this one :- http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/82035-why-new-tax-good-idea.html#post1294760

My point was it's not just added on each step, it's imposed on the value added at each step i.e. on the additional amount added on each step. The writer in that post gives a wrong example and adds 15% on the total value at each step - which is not the way it works. I see somebody saner has already raised the point in the comments of that blogpost and the writer has addressed that as complex words and rejected that she's factually wrong (see the last para for the example of the imposition she gives which is wrong).

i think the writer is right.

lets assume the raw material to be iron ore... in the first stage it is brought out from some mine and therefore brining its value from zero to 100. 15% tax takes this price to 115.

in the next stage value addition of 20 takes place. 15% tax on it equals around 3. meaning now the price will be 115+20+3=138

in the final stage another 20 is added to the value. 15% tax on this added value would mean another 3. taking the final price at 138+20+3=161

total tax paid= 15+3+3= 21

pirce minus tax= 100+20+20=140

21 is around 15% of 140


meaning......... it doesnt matter if u charge the tax at the end or during different value added stages
 
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