Why Pakistan Produces Jihadists

[Xeric]

i have, its full of trolls and kids d1ck waving. Not even one inch of proof but articles from blogs and over-patriotic websites. Your own ministers have acknowledged that the water is being wasted and not stolen. The issue has never been raised internationally and will never be as there is no issue. Try to see past propaganda sometimes. Water is a serious issue and if India was stealing Pakistan's water, it would be a golden chance for Pakistan to corner India internationally but as there is no issue, we only see evidence of such theories on Zaid Hamid blogs and in articles by other Pakistani "Defense Analyst".

Ok, so now you would try to feed me BS!

You very conveniently picked up the troll-post from there as it would suit you and rejected or should i say deliberately skipped the posts that discussed the Indus Water Treaty, quotes from there, put forward logical and valid proofs as why did india agree to change the design of some dams after Pakistan's concern etc etc.

Cherry-picking, well it's not at all chivalric!!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And let me tell you once again that 43% Pakistanis thinking LET as the good boys has nothing whatever to do with JUD's charity work as the two are totally different organsations according to Pakistani govt.

LET is a terrorist org according to GOP and its been so for 8 years.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

And what exactly do the Pakistanis supporting LeT think of it? As I said before, the GoP is not exactly looked at favorably by a lot of Pakistanis, and many people see the fall of AQ Khan and the banning of LeT and JuD as politically motivated and unsubstantiated at the behest of America. So the point remains the same, what percentage of that 43% support terrorism and attacks on non-combatants?

Without credible numbers showing a significant percentage of Pakistanis being supportive of terrorism and attacks on civilians your claims continue to be invalid and reflective of a prejudiced mind.

 

[Xeric]

Atleast our elected parties dont call for collective suicide squads nor does they ask for outright violence against a particular group. In short, if 43% 'supported' JuD, more than 80% also vigorously support the military action against the terrorist scumbags and rejects violence, terrorism and extremist in all its forms and manifestation.

Atleast non of the elected groups or those actually in power asked for a nationalistic stance or favored a particular religious faction as is a norm inside india.

Need proofs, just ask me politely!

JuD..lol...they cant even scratch their arse!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I would also like to add, we Indians have also been taught from birth that whole of Kashmir is ours, Pakistan illegally occupied a part of it through a war just after independence. Not to mention that Pakistan itself was carved out of India.

we got independence before india did; india wasnt even a country until 1947

status-quo is what is ground reality, only solution where no territory changes hands, thus no egos or whatever it is, get hurt.

status quo is not in your favour it seems....Most Kashmiris do not want to be part of india. Some are calling for total independence.

So why not share Kashmir, why not make it a place where Indians and Pakistanis come together, and not where they go to war.

A border where any Indian or Pakistani can just walk-in and get a visa on arrival and just go to skardu or dal-lake as the case may be and for native Kashmiris, not even any visa required to cross over. I know it is a difficult proposition to implement, but it can be implemented if there is enough trust between the 2 countries.

there is not enough trust, obviously

 

[brahmastra]

we got independence before india did; india wasnt even a country until 1947

what ever suits your ego.
Wasco-de-gama didn't came for delhi or punja or calcutta he came for India, Britishers, Afghans, moghuls didn't came for delhi, they came for India.

status quo is not in your favour it seems....Most Kashmiris do not want to be part of india. Some are calling for total independence.

those 'some' numbers are bigger than the number of people want to join pakistan. even no. of people want to remain part of India is larger than no. of people want to be part of pakistan.it was local kashmiri who informed Indian army when you attacked in 47/48 and even in '99. so atleast they like us more than you.

 

[prithwidw]

Atleast our elected parties dont call for collective suicide squads nor does they ask for outright violence against a particular group. In short, if 43% 'supported' JuD, more than 80% also vigorously support the military action against the terrorist scumbags and rejects violence, terrorism and extremist in all its forms and manifestation.

Atleast non of the elected groups or those actually in power asked for a nationalistic stance or favored a particular religious faction as is a norm inside india.

Need proofs, just ask me politely!

JuD..lol...they cant even scratch their arse!

If this is the case, then the future of SE Asia is bright. But Sir Xeric, you are not in power, nor am I, sadly.

 

[T-Faz]

Perhaps I need to clear up one part as to why Pakistan supported and aided mujahideen against the soviets overlooking future repercussions. This is very vital and India had a big role to play in it, after India had developed nuclear weapons and had a strong all weather ally in USSR, Pakistan on the other hand had nothing as US abandoned us and china at the time was not what it is today.

The reason Pakistan supported the mujahideen was simple, to aid our nuclear program through US funding and gain US dependence on us to defeat the USSR. Through this we created nuclear weapon without which India would have attacked us as it had been planing and threatening of attacks as usual especially in the 80's as it had gained clear conventional military advantage.

March 1987: A. Q. Khan Says Pakistan Has Nuclear Weapons, then Retracts Claims  

A. Q. Khan. [Source: CBC]
A. Q. Khan, father of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program, tells an Indian reporter that the program has been successful (see 1987). “What the CIA has been saying about our possessing the bomb is correct,” he says, adding, “They told us Pakistan could never produce the bomb and they doubted my capabilities, but they now know we have it.” He says that Pakistan does not want to use the bomb, but “if driven to the wall there will be no option left.” The comments are made during a major Indian army exercise known as Brass Tacks that Pakistanis consider a serious threat, as it is close to the Pakistani border. In fact, at one point the Indian commanding general is reported to consider actually attacking Pakistan—an attack that would be a sure success given India’s conventional superiority. According to reporter Seymour Hersh, the purpose of the interview is “to convey a not very subtle message to the Indians: any attempt to dismember Pakistan would be countered with the bomb.” This interview is an embarrassment to the US government, which aided Pakistan during the Soviet-Afghan War, but has repeatedly claimed Pakistan does not have nuclear weapons (see August 1985-October 1990). Khan retracts his remarks a few days later, saying he was tricked by the reporter. [NEW YORKER, 3/29/1993]
Entity Tags: Seymour Hersh, Abdul Qadeer Khan, Central Intelligence Agency
Timeline Tags: A. Q. Khan's Nuclear Network

May 18, 1974: India Tests First Nuclear Device  
India detonates a nuclear device in an underground facility. The device had been built using material supplied for its ostensibly peaceful nuclear program by the United States, France, and Canada. The test, and this aspect of India’s nuclear program, is unauthorized by global control mechanisms. India portrays the test as a “peaceful nuclear explosion,” and says it is “firmly committed” to using nuclear technology for only peaceful purposes.
Kissinger: 'Fait Accompli' - Pakistan, India’s regional opponent, is extremely unhappy with the test, which apparently confirms India’s military superiority. Due to the obvious difficulties producing its own nuclear bomb, Pakistan first tries to find a diplomatic solution. It asks the US to provide it with a nuclear umbrella, without much hope of success. Relations between Pakistan and the US, once extremely close, have been worsening for some years. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger tells Pakistan’s ambassador to Washington that the test is “a fait accompli and that Pakistan would have to learn to live with it,” although he is aware this is a “little rough” on the Pakistanis.
No Punishment - No sanctions are imposed on India, or the countries that sold the technology to it, and they continue to help India’s nuclear program. Pakistani foreign minister Agha Shahi will later say that, if Kissinger had replied otherwise, Pakistan would have not started its own nuclear weapons program and that “you would never have heard of A. Q. Khan.” Shahi also points out to his colleagues that if Pakistan does build a bomb, then it will probably not suffer any sanctions either.

1980s: Much US and Saudi Aid Meant for Afghan Fighters Goes to ISI and A. Q. Khan Network  
Much of the billions of dollars in aid from Saudi Arabia and the CIA to the Afghan mujaheddin actually gets siphoned off by the Pakistani ISI. Melvin Goodman, a CIA analyst in the 1980s, will later say, “They were funding the wrong groups, and had little idea where the money was going or how it was being spent.” Sarkis Soghanalian, a middleman profiting from the aid, will later say, “The US did not want to get its hands dirty. So the Saudis’ money and the US money was handled by the ISI. I can tell you that more than three quarters of the money was skimmed off the top. What went to buy weapons for the Afghan fighters was peanuts.” Sognhanalian claims that most of the money went through various accounts held at the notoriously corrupt BCCI bank, then was distributed to the ISI and the A. Q. Khan nuclear network. [TRENTO, 2005, PP. 318] Robert Crowley, a CIA associate director from the 1960s until the 1980s, will also refer to the aid money going to Khan’s network, commenting, “Unfortunately, the Pakistanis knew exactly where their cut of the money was to go.” An early 1990s congressional investigation led by Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) will also come to the same conclusion. [TRENTO, 2005, PP. 314, 384]
Entity Tags: Robert Crowley, Saudi Arabia, Bank of Credit and Commerce International, Central Intelligence Agency, Melvin A. Goodman, Pakistan Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, Sarkis Soghanalian
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, A. Q. Khan's Nuclear Network, War in Afghanistan

The role of an important ally allowed Pakistan to gain equivalence with India that otherwise would have led to India's overtures of war that Pakistan had to counter. The end result of US abandoning and leaving Pakistan with the mess is still being felt today.

It is however the last of such problems as it is clear now that any short term success can lead to long term unforeseeable problems. Waziristan and FATA in general has been the problem and that will be dealt with as soon as possible.

 

[tapsumbong]

What I would like to see are more Indians, critical of Pakistan's support for 'terrorists/insurgents', recognize that their nation did the same in East Pakistan. In fact I started a thread specifically on that issue, and the only thing I got back was myriad excuses justifying that Indian support for 'terrorism' in 1971.

Within the Indian media and intelligentsia, the events of 1971 and India's role continue to be glorified, not critically analyzed. Contrast that with the commentary in the Pakistani press, where the commentators critical of Pakistan's Afghan and Kashmir policy are a dime a dozen.

What I see on the Pakistani side, that I do not see on the Indian side, is introspection. So long as India, and this does not have to be the GoI alone, rather its people, media and intelligentsia, cannot be honest with themselves about the events of 1971, and engage in critical discourse on them, I cannot view India as being sincere.

Pakistan alone is not responsible for Faisal Shazad, a confluence of geo-political events, religious extremism, and wars in Afghanistan and FATA is what led to an educated and well-off young man committing such crimes. One cannot merely cherry pick Pakistan out of all the actors involved in the many events in Afghanistan and Pakistan specifically, and the Middle East in general, and then blame her. The regional dynamics we see today, and the events that led to them, did not occur in a vacuum with solely Pakistan responsible.

Why not blame the Soviets, or even better the Afghans? For setting in play a series of events that continue to have repercussions till this day.


Thank you, that was my major beef with the argument put forward by S Dhume and various other Indian commentators over the years, that it in essence implied that all Pakistanis were terrorists and evil, since the nature of the State and its identity was 'evil' and needed to be changed.

There is a war going on, and there are lands in chaos, and there is an extremist religious ideology in the mix that has proven to be a very potent motivator of individuals committing acts of mass murder.

All of that lends itself to the situation in Pakistan, and some of that is absent in India. There are after all terrorists just as brutal in the CAR's, Russia, Philippines, Indonesia (the author forgot the Bali bombings and the Islamic terrorist networks that exist there while extolling its virtues - yet another flaw in his analysis), Turkey, the Arab world, Europe etc. Pakistan is not responsible for them all, which means that the fault here is not the nature of the State, but geo-political events and various socio-economic-ideological confluences.

There have been enough critical analysis done in India about 1971, just not enough I guess to satisfy you. And I must add, you want India and Indians to do this in the backdrop of the numerous LeT bombings and Mumbai attacks and ambush of our security forces in Kashmir? You think thats a rational demand? Come to reality my man, as I said before, Indians have a long list of grievances against Pakistan as well, many of them legitimate, as the proxy war against India for 3 decades now is a reality and not a figment of Indian imagination. So I have list of actions that I would like to see from Pakistanis and GoP as well, so you see, we keep going around in circles. Ultimately, and as adult you surely recognize this, it comes down to what you choose, the decisions you take in life and things you do comes down to your own individual choice, and I clearly see that you can chosen to be skeptical of India and Indians and always doubt their intentions. I, on the other hand, have chosen to want peace with Pakistan no matter what I think Pakistan has done to India. If majority of Indians and Pakistanis choose to ignore the past and just work towards peace in the future, then we don't have to indulge in these 2 page long conversations about 'hey you did this to me 20 years ago'. You point to Dhume, by the way I don't agree with how he wrote the article, and I point to Zaid Hamid and then we keep on pursuing our relations based on what commentators say and not what we as individuals say and think.

For the other part, regarding confluence of many factors and events resulting in Faisal Shahzad doing what he did, I agree mostly, but I also see you giving reasonings as to how such an act can have rational reasons behind it, whereas I see it as simple terrorism and thus not fit for reasonings, I see reasonings as to how Pakistan is not to blame for why a well-educated positive outlook Pakistani just tried to kill me last saturday, I live very close to Times Square, thousands of miles away from India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Gaza and what not. I hope you realize the gravity of this situation and how absurd it is to find reasons for it. I am interested in practical solutions to problems, and not theoretical back-n-forth chasing our own tails that leads to nowhere. I would reiterate again, I didn't blame Pakistan or Pakistanis solely for this terrorist's acts, but merely pointed out that such mechanisms and people exist in Pakistan today and to stop them, that solely is Pakistan's responsibility. You can argue all day long that as long as Kashmir is with India, as long as Israel exists, or as long as the US foreign policy stands the way it is, there would be jihadis and jihadi mechanism in Pakistan, but it amounts to simple egg or the chicken theory, whole world's position would always be as long as there are jihadists in Pakistan, as long as there are terrorists threatening our way of life, we will never come to peace with the jihadists, and in that process with Pakistan.

Don't get me wrong, I like what you have to say, and agree for the most part, you have undying love for your country and I for my country, but to keep, but to keep our collective future progress at bay just because we are not satisfied with each other's sincerity, now thats where I beg to differ.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what ever suits your ego.

Facts are facts. Go learn history

those 'some' numbers are bigger than the number of people want to join pakistan. even no. of people want to remain part of India is larger than no. of people want to be part of pakistan.it was local kashmiri who informed Indian army when you attacked in 47/48 and even in '99. so atleast they like us more than you.

thanks for the good laugh

have u been following the news lately in indian occupied Kashmir? I do regularly update the Kashmir threads; go have a look at them after a nice cold glass of paani

 

[Paksindhi]

Pakistanis r not terrorists but they r unfortunately ruled by peoples who have no interest in the well being of Pakistan or its people, they follow the instructions of IMF and WB in total disregard of there national interest. That creats backlash and frustration amoung people, which the world call terrorism.
Pakistan deserves honest and God fearing leadership, only than world can see true potential of this Great but misguided and misunderstood nation.

 

[nForce]

Pakistanis r not terrorists but they r unfortunately ruled by peoples who have no interest in the well being of Pakistan or its people, they follow the instructions of IMF and WB in total disregard of there national interest. That creats backlash and frustration amoung people, which the world call terrorism.
Pakistan deserves honest and God fearing leadership, only than world can see true potential of this Great but misguided and misunderstood nation.

What Pakistan needs is a proper form of Democracy me friend.A govt. that people can believe in.The incessant changes in the govt.,the military coupes and last but not the least,the wild and aggressive form of foreign policy have damaged the country to a great extent.Frankly it seems,that Pakistan has been a bit too much involved in foreign affairs,no matter who or which party heads the govt.A strong and stable govt for an extended period of time will curb most of the problems in Pakistan.If the country gains economic stability under a strong govt. with moderate outlook,then i do believe the terrorist problem will also go away.

 

[xenia]

What Pakistan needs is a proper form of Democracy me friend.A govt. that people can believe in.The incessant changes in the govt.,the military coupes and last but not the least,the wild and aggressive form of foreign policy have damaged the country to a great extent.Frankly it seems,that Pakistan has been a bit too much involved in foreign affairs,no matter who or which party heads the govt.A strong and stable govt for an extended period of time will curb most of the problems in Pakistan.If the country gains economic stability under a strong govt. with moderate outlook,then i do believe the terrorist problem will also go away.

when u have war right at your next door, u r bound to get embroiled in that..regarding democracy..obviously this is what we need but a cleaner one!

 

[karan.1970]

Last time i checked it was india against whom the West issued (Embassy) releases to their citizens residing inside india to stay careful of terrorist acts.

Grow up, troll!

You are kidding.. right.. ?? Are you comparing a release by Western embassies to their citizens in India about an impending attack by terrorists (in all probability from Pakistan. Non state actors ofcourse) to an almost ongoing travel advisory against Pakistan.

Current Travel Warnings


Though I dont agree with the post to which your responded here...

 

[bandmaster]

Nowhere in there did I see a categorical rejection/condemnation of the policies pursued by the GoI in 1971.

Condemn India for this?

"Since March, when the Pakistani army staged a bloody crackdown in East Bengal, murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians and prompting 10 million Bengalis to flee across the Indian border, the U.S. has been ostentatiously mild in its public criticism of the atrocities and of Pakistan's military ruler, President Yahya Khan—a man whom President Nixon likes. Washington wanted to retain whatever leverage it had with the Pakistanis.
"
The World: The U.S.: A Policy in Shambles - TIME

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You are kidding.. right.. ?? Are you comparing a release by Western embassies to their citizens in India about an impending attack by terrorists (in all probability from Pakistan. Non state actors ofcourse)

don't get so emotional all the time.

By the way, he was just trying to prove a point. It is no lie that U.S. and other embassies in india have issued travel advisories to their citizens.

It's not always because of terrorism. In Goa alone, i'm always hearing cases about tourists being raped and/or killed.

to an almost ongoing travel advisory against Pakistan.

Current Travel Warnings

our country lies along restive borders with Afghanistan and , to some extent, Iran. It is only natural to issue such an advisory, when even our own citizens are in danger -given a challenging security environment. Nobody is in denial about this.

this is a relatively recent phenonmenon; wasn't always like this. Wont always be like this either. Any tourist (especially the westerners) who comes to Pakistan either stays, or itches to come back.