Why Pakistan Produces Jihadists

[Abu Zolfiqar]

This obession of India & Kashmir and Water rights and Threat perception has to stop if Pakistanis are too prosper in the coming time.

When your politicians and other important figures talk about Cold Start doctrines, ''surgical strikes'' (all talk of course), and other hostile statements and maneuvers -- it shows that you are the ones giving rise to such ''obcession'' with india

We are more obcessed with actually SOLVING the issues in a manner that fosters to the will of the Kashmiri people. Given our closeness to them, it is not our right only; it is our duty. We will continue to fulfill this duty of ours. To not do so would be criminal negligence.

As you are aware, agriculture still represents our LIFE; and our economy. Take away our water, and we will wither. You can be damn sure we will take up the issue of water; and in fact there is an ongoing initiative to take up the issue internationally.

John Briscoe from the World Bank rightly said it

If you want to give Lashkar-e-Taiba and other Pakistani militants an issue that really rallies people, give them water"


as for stopping ''threat perception'' --- I think you need to think about your statement. No Armed Forces in the world will stop analyzing such things. india is not exactly a non-hostile neighbour. Of course if you accept us as a neigbhour learn to co-exist peacefully (with all neighbours) then the threat-perception levels would go down a few notches. No?



As for Kashmir-sympathizing groups; of course those groups will go underground.....it's ideal to bring them in the limelight; let the world hear their concerns instead of acting like everything is hunky-dory


Do you want a sustainable solution to the problems, or do you just want a few scribbles on scrap paper and pretend like a solution is reached?


i can assure you, no outwardly violent fanatic/extremist type is active in Pakistani politics. I'm not sure if I can say the same thing about a certain neighbour country.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Tapsumbong.

Good Post.

Pakistans internal problems stem from a clear lack of direction or goal.

This obession of India & Kashmir and Water rights and Threat perception has to stop if Pakistanis are too prosper in the coming time.

Pakistan's problems do stem from a lack of clear direction, but that is primarily the result of poor governance and poor leadership, not India, kashmir, water rights or threat perceptions.

Our politicians continue to chant slogans of 'roti, kapra, makaan' (not roti kapra makaan for Kashmir), they continue to talk big about development and making Pakistan an 'Asian Tiger' - what is lacking is not rhetoric, but the ability to deliver because of ineptitude and corruption.

Governance is poor because of the lack of continuity in any particular political system and from the lack of continuity in democracy arises a lack of evolution in the political class and electorate, both essential for rooting out that which is decrepit and failed.

Politicians continue to be corrupt and inept, and continue to be reelected on the basis of biradri, or because the carry enormous influence as feudals or industrialists.

This is something only continuity in the democratic process can change, as voter sentiments evolve and they become more aware.

 

[tapsumbong]

No where in there did I see a categorical rejection/condemnation of the policies pursued by the GoI in 1971.

What I saw was a sales pitch promoting the virtues of Indian benevolence without once condemning the not-so benevolent acts of the past. No condemnation of past 'support for terrorism', and the overwhelming majority of Indian infantry and armored divisions continue to be deployed against Pakistan on the IB and LoC. A sales pitch extolling the virtues of Indian economic growth alone will not cut it, I would like to see some meaningful rejection of policies such as the Indian support for terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan and support for redeployment of Indian forces away from the IB.

If the elections of governments are what we are to go by, the I could also point to the election, by a large margin, of the PPP, MQM, ANP coalition of largely liberal parties in Pakistan. Include the centrist PML-Q and that margin increases even more. Include the center right PML-N, by no means a religious party, though more conservative than the others, and the religious right was rejected overwhelmingly in the last elections, and has in fact been rejected overwhelmingly in every election held in Pakistan, despite the major religious parties being considered the most 'disciplined and organized' political parties in Pakistan.

Whose condemnation are you looking for? Mine? If yes then yeah I condemn it, terrorism in any form is not justified. But if you are looking for any official GoI condemnation of its past policies or issuing a 'We are sorry' statement, then you know thats just impractical. You would have to dig through the closets of a lot of countries, including Pakistan, and make them do the same before asking GoI to do that. Here you are, and the GoP, inspite of a Pakistani citizen arrested and tried and proven guilty in Indian court for the Mumbai terrorist attacks, still having doubts that Pakistan had anything to do with it, while you look for some condemnation for what happened 40 years ago. The more we keep looking at the past, the more this vicious cycle keeps going on and on. How can GoI reject a policy that was implemented 40 yrs ago and has been dead for 40 yrs now.
As for your other part, I fully agree with your assertion, and said that repeatedly that most Pakistanis, just like most Indians, reject terrorism and don't want an extreme ideological government to govern our country. So yes, elections and government formed is just the thing to go by to get a general assessment of the population as to where they stand. Results and actions speak the loudest!! A handful of jihadist doesn't make all of Pakistanis terrorists, said that repeatedly. But what I said is there are enough of them, and they have enough means available to them, to spread terror all over the globe, and this is also a result that is for all to see. The day a hindu terrorist sneaks into Pakistan or a radicalized hindu computer engineer sneaks into the US, and there many Indian engineers here, and blows up bombs and hijacks hotels and terrorizes innocent Pakistanis and Americans, believe me that day I would be the first one to open a thread titled 'Why India produces hindu jihadists' and condemn my government and the radical ideology all day till the cows come home.

 

[desiman]

When your politicians and other important figures talk about Cold Start doctrines, ''surgical strikes'' (all talk of course), and other hostile statements and maneuvers -- it shows that you are the ones giving rise to such ''obcession'' with india

We are more obcessed with actually SOLVING the issues in a manner that fosters to the will of the Kashmiri people. Given our closeness to them, it is not our right only; it is our duty. We will continue to fulfill this duty of ours. To not do so would be criminal negligence.

As you are aware, agriculture still represents our LIFE; and our economy. Take away our water, and we will wither. You can be damn sure we will take up the issue of water; and in fact there is an ongoing initiative to take up the issue internationally.

John Briscoe from the World Bank rightly said it

If you want to give Lashkar-e-Taiba and other Pakistani militants an issue that really rallies people, give them water"


as for stopping ''threat perception'' --- I think you need to think about your statement. No Armed Forces in the world will stop analyzing such things. india is not exactly a non-hostile neighbour. Of course if you accept us as a neigbhour learn to co-exist peacefully (with all neighbours) then the threat-perception levels would go down a few notches. No?



As for Kashmir-sympathizing groups; of course those groups will go underground.....it's ideal to bring them in the limelight; let the world hear their concerns instead of acting like everything is hunky-dory


Do you want a sustainable solution to the problems, or do you just want a few scribbles on scrap paper and pretend like a solution is reached?


i can assure you, no outwardly violent fanatic/extremist type is active in Pakistani politics. I'm not sure if I can say the same thing about a certain neighbour country.

well continue to fulfill your "Duty" we shall see who is where after 10 years. Duty is first towards your own nation and people, when you start mixing foreign issues with personal or religious goals is when run into problems. Trying to become the moral judge of Indian action in the valley has only brought problems onto you. Continued stress on the Kashmir issue will lead to further radicalization of Pakistan and that will only hurt Pakistan not India. It is infact in India's best interest to let Pakistan monger over the Kashmir issue as it really makes no difference to India. The more you stress on it, the more you get hurt. I recommend a change in your foreign policy and getting off the Kashmir bandwagon. The government's primary duty is to the people of the country and peoples primary duty is to serve the nation not worry about someone else's rights.

 

[desiman]

and did John Briscoe say that India is stealing the water, it has been proven again and again that India has not broken any law or stolen any water, your wasting your own water and then blaming it on India, how convenient right.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

well continue to fulfill your "Duty" we shall see who is where after 10 years.

absolutely

Duty is first towards your own nation and people

it would harm our nation and our people to even THINK about abandoning the Kashmir cause; which is ingrained in us since birth.

practice what you preach, anyways. Occupied Kashmir is in india's grip only because of force.

Trying to become the moral judge of Indian action in the valley has only brought problems onto you.

Pakistan does not place Kashmiri leaders, activists, and civilians under constant curfew and house-arrest.

As a result, Kashmiris are not fighting Pakistanis. They are fighting indians --especially in Sri Nagar.

Continued stress on the Kashmir issue will lead to further radicalization of Pakistan and that will only hurt Pakistan not India.

radicalization would occur if we abandoned Kashmir.....Even i would take up heavy arms if that were the case. And I am not a political person, I'm a very simple civilian.

The more you stress on it, the more you get hurt.

it seems that the world will slowly realize that the war on terrorism cannot be won without Pakistan's help. We will (rightfully) extend our support to help combat terrorism wherever it exists.

this will be undermined if the world doesnt realize that until and unless Kashmir issue is resolved fairly, there will be elements in Kashmir and other areas where people will want to take up arms and fight whom they view as aggressors

incidentally, our support to Kashmir comes at little cost to the Pakistani tax-payer. Most of it is moral support. As stated earlier, you'd be naiive to think we will stop such support.

I recommend a change in your foreign policy and getting off the Kashmir bandwagon.

The government's primary duty is to the people of the country and peoples primary duty is to serve the nation not worry about someone else's rights.

their rights are our rights..

they are us

 

[prithwidw]

and did John Briscoe say that India is stealing the water, it has been proven again and again that India has not broken any law or stolen any water, your wasting your own water and then blaming it on India, how convenient right.

Feeding trolls, how convenient right?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I am referring to the construction of new dams. You can learn what you seek; there are numerous (new) articles about it ; probably even in this forum.

 

[Solomon2]

it would harm our nation and our people to even THINK about abandoning the Kashmir cause; which is ingrained in us since birth.

Where a topic is totally off-limits to rational discussion, there is where you will find tyranny.

 

[Xeric]

and did John Briscoe say that India is stealing the water, it has been proven again and again that India has not broken any law or stolen any water, your wasting your own water and then blaming it on India, how convenient right.

Be advised: You really need to visit the Water thread somewhere around here.

 

[desiman]

absolutely



it would harm our nation and our people to even THINK about abandoning the Kashmir cause; which is ingrained in us since birth.

practice what you preach, anyways. Occupied Kashmir is in india's grip only because of force.



Pakistan does not place Kashmiri leaders, activists, and civilians under constant curfew and house-arrest.

As a result, Kashmiris are not fighting Pakistanis. They are fighting indians --especially in Sri Nagar.



radicalization would occur if we abandoned Kashmir.....Even i would take up heavy arms if that were the case. And I am not a political person, I'm a very simple civilian.




it seems that the world will slowly realize that the war on terrorism cannot be won without Pakistan's help. We will (rightfully) extend our support to help combat terrorism wherever it exists.

this will be undermined if the world doesnt realize that until and unless Kashmir issue is resolved fairly, there will be elements in Kashmir and other areas where people will want to take up arms and fight whom they view as aggressors

incidentally, our support to Kashmir comes at little cost to the Pakistani tax-payer. Most of it is moral support. As stated earlier, you'd be naiive to think we will stop such support.








their rights are our rights..

they are us

All i can say is Good Luck to you buddy, i hope one day you see past all this and we can just be friends.

 

[desiman]

Be advised: You really need to visit the Water thread somewhere around here.

i have, its full of trolls and kids d1ck waving. Not even one inch of proof but articles from blogs and over-patriotic websites. Your own ministers have acknowledged that the water is being wasted and not stolen. The issue has never been raised internationally and will never be as there is no issue. Try to see past propaganda sometimes. Water is a serious issue and if India was stealing Pakistan's water, it would be a golden chance for Pakistan to corner India internationally but as there is no issue, we only see evidence of such theories on Zaid Hamid blogs and in articles by other Pakistani "Defense Analyst".

 

[tapsumbong]

Where a topic is totally off-limits to rational discussion, there is where you will find tyranny.

Solomon, you beat me to it.

I would also like to add, we Indians have also been taught from birth that whole of Kashmir is ours, Pakistan illegally occupied a part of it through a war just after independence. Not to mention that Pakistan itself was carved out of India. Now if we follow the same logic then 1.1 billion Indians should also be deeply entrenched in this thinking and have the same stance. So where is the room for progress?? But I am glad to say that today most Indians have evolved to a level where the rhetorics of the past just don't make sense in today's world, not only geopolitic-wise, but also on a personal level, as an adult I can see through those hard-drilled messages and would just like to be over with the Kashmir conflict and just be happy with the status-quo, and status-quo is what is ground reality, only solution where no territory changes hands, thus no egos or whatever it is, get hurt.

A visa-less IB, where Kashmiris from both sides can just walk into either territory is the best solution possible, I say this keeping in mind the reality, just as a billion indians cannot give an inch of land, so do I expect 170 million pakistanis as well not to budge from an inch of their land. So why not share Kashmir, why not make it a place where Indians and Pakistanis come together, and not where they go to war. A border where any Indian or Pakistani can just walk-in and get a visa on arrival and just go to skardu or dal-lake as the case may be and for native Kashmiris, not even any visa required to cross over. I know it is a difficult proposition to implement, but it can be implemented if there is enough trust between the 2 countries.

 

[notsuperstitious]

No, your assertions remain invalid since you have not illustrated that a significant percentage of Pakistanis support the position that attacks on non-Pakistani civilians are acceptable while those on Pakistani civilians are not.

Let me point out, for the third time, that repeated polling in Pakistan over the past few years has shown that Pakistanis overwhelmingly condemn terrorism and attacks on non-combatants. A couple of people from Faridkot quoted in an article does not signify a national trend.

And let me tell you once again that 43% Pakistanis thinking LET as the good boys has nothing whatever to do with JUD's charity work as the two are totally different organsations according to Pakistani govt.

LET is a terrorist org according to GOP and its been so for 8 years.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Whose condemnation are you looking for? Mine? If yes then yeah I condemn it, terrorism in any form is not justified. But if you are looking for any official GoI condemnation of its past policies or issuing a 'We are sorry' statement, then you know thats just impractical. You would have to dig through the closets of a lot of countries, including Pakistan, and make them do the same before asking GoI to do that.

What I would like to see are more Indians, critical of Pakistan's support for 'terrorists/insurgents', recognize that their nation did the same in East Pakistan. In fact I started a thread specifically on that issue, and the only thing I got back was myriad excuses justifying that Indian support for 'terrorism' in 1971.

Within the Indian media and intelligentsia, the events of 1971 and India's role continue to be glorified, not critically analyzed. Contrast that with the commentary in the Pakistani press, where the commentators critical of Pakistan's Afghan and Kashmir policy are a dime a dozen.

What I see on the Pakistani side, that I do not see on the Indian side, is introspection. So long as India, and this does not have to be the GoI alone, rather its people, media and intelligentsia, cannot be honest with themselves about the events of 1971, and engage in critical discourse on them, I cannot view India as being sincere.

Here you are, and the GoP, inspite of a Pakistani citizen arrested and tried and proven guilty in Indian court for the Mumbai terrorist attacks, still having doubts that Pakistan had anything to do with it,

Pakistan alone is not responsible for Faisal Shazad, a confluence of geo-political events, religious extremism, and wars in Afghanistan and FATA is what led to an educated and well-off young man committing such crimes. One cannot merely cherry pick Pakistan out of all the actors involved in the many events in Afghanistan and Pakistan specifically, and the Middle East in general, and then blame her. The regional dynamics we see today, and the events that led to them, did not occur in a vacuum with solely Pakistan responsible.

Why not blame the Soviets, or even better the Afghans? For setting in play a series of events that continue to have repercussions till this day.

.
As for your other part, I fully agree with your assertion, and said that repeatedly that most Pakistanis, just like most Indians, reject terrorism and don't want an extreme ideological government to govern our country. So yes, elections and government formed is just the thing to go by to get a general assessment of the population as to where they stand. Results and actions speak the loudest!! A handful of jihadist doesn't make all of Pakistanis terrorists, said that repeatedly.

Thank you, that was my major beef with the argument put forward by S Dhume and various other Indian commentators over the years, that it in essence implied that all Pakistanis were terrorists and evil, since the nature of the State and its identity was 'evil' and needed to be changed.

But what I said is there are enough of them, and they have enough means available to them, to spread terror all over the globe, and this is also a result that is for all to see. The day a hindu terrorist sneaks into Pakistan or a radicalized hindu computer engineer sneaks into the US, and there many Indian engineers here, and blows up bombs and hijacks hotels and terrorizes innocent Pakistanis and Americans, believe me that day I would be the first one to open a thread titled 'Why India produces hindu jihadists' and condemn my government and the radical ideology all day till the cows come home.

There is a war going on, and there are lands in chaos, and there is an extremist religious ideology in the mix that has proven to be a very potent motivator of individuals committing acts of mass murder.

All of that lends itself to the situation in Pakistan, and some of that is absent in India. There are after all terrorists just as brutal in the CAR's, Russia, Philippines, Indonesia (the author forgot the Bali bombings and the Islamic terrorist networks that exist there while extolling its virtues - yet another flaw in his analysis), Turkey, the Arab world, Europe etc. Pakistan is not responsible for them all, which means that the fault here is not the nature of the State, but geo-political events and various socio-economic-ideological confluences.