Why Pakistan Produces Jihadists

[desiman]

its Pakistani channel so you will feel this feeling
go to indian channels and you will think all are against india

btw in world of real politicks no one is innocence

is india or israel innocent

if you think yes then you live in fools paradise

National intrest for every state is supreme

Is Pakistan innocent then ? are all problems in Pakistan because of external influences ? You can continue to falsely blame India or Israel but that will never solve your problems, Pakistan played a huge role in the creation of many terrorist outfits and that dragon is now coming back to bite you, again as i said before Pakistan's major problem is obsession with India and Kashmir. As long as both continue, these organizations will flourish and will only pull you guys down.

 

[Solomon2]

How effectively did Americans question the veracity of the misinformation propagated about Iraq in the runup to the war?

I think American policymakers did the best and most reasonable job they could, with the minor exception of allegations of truck-mounted bioweapons, which should have invited more skepticism.

Zakaria, and others, continue to insist that the PA and ISI are supporting the Taliban, or some factions of it - where is the evidence of that?

I have the same question.

Primarily these allegations derive from the lack of Pakistani military action in NW, but analogous to that, has the US not just abandoned territory to the Taliban in Kunar, with the excuse of 'resource constraints'?

There is a big difference between a population liberated and then abandoned vs. one not liberated at all. The first is exposed to retribution by the terrorists, the second is merely mulcted and subject to conscription. I don't know how many Afghan citizens were left behind by the withdrawal, and I sure wasn't happy to read about it.

If the collective military and economic might of NATO cannot prevent the ceding of territory to the Taliban, even if temporarily (though no return date has been set either) then why assign malicious intent to the Pakistani decision to not attack NW, based on similar rationale of resource constraints, stabilizing existing conflict-zones etc.?

I wasn't aware that the Pakistani decision was considered "malicious intent". By whom? Yet leaving these areas in the hands of terrorists still yields to them a breeding ground for more recruits and areas for training. I hope that will be a very temporary situation.

as with the propaganda about Iraq, most of the US 'intelligentsia' and media refuses to see the rather blatant double standards applied in critiquing Pakistani military decisions, while lauding McChrystal for his 'grand new strategy of defending the population centers in Afghanistan'.

I don't see the Iraq and Afghan situations as similar. There was no Pakistan next door to Iraq.

I would argue that the domestic dynamics in the US are not really that different from those in Pakistan - the people need a simplistic solution to a major issue and a scapegoat, and Pakistan and blaming the PA/ISI ends up being that simplistic solution.

Have I blamed the PA or ISI for any terrorism of the past year? I don't think so. Yet for generations the PA and ISI have been active in creating state-supported "stateless" terrorists (or "Pakistani infiltrators" as the State Dept. called them in old cables) and I don't think they have been willing to give that up yet - only that the terrorists freed themselves from state control to strike out on their own. For now, Pakistan may be training new groups and letting the few active ones that remain sleep for a while (or remain inactive as long as India remains vigilant on its border.)

The Western media, frequently with GoUS assistance through the ubiquitous 'anonymous sources', plays the same role in perpetuating the 'bogeyman', that Americans would argue the media in Pakistan does with respect to 'external actors' being responsible for chaos in Pakistan.

Do you think it has the same effect to the same extent in both countries?

Add in commentators like Zakaria with pre-existing biases, and uninformed analysis is now deliberately biased and distorted analysis to push a particular agenda, and because that agenda dovetails with the existing need to scapegoat, it becomes rather hard to point out fallacies in the dominant narrative.

I've suggested before that the GoP should consider axing its public relations consultant in the U.S. and seek out another firm. Failure is, after all, a demonstration of their effectiveness.

On the other hand, I have heard former American policymakers complain that reaching the Pakistani public is very difficult, since the newspaper circulation is low and the reach of Pakistani TV is not great. Their implication is that the power of the media is not so important in Pakistan.

 

[Windjammer]

Indian sponsored terrorism, Jew sponsored WOT, USA behind all problem in Pakistan, RAW behind the TTP, Mossad behind all bomb blast. It seems that everybody is after Pakistan for some reason. Maybe its time for Pakistan to introspect than blame every other person for their own problems, there is surely something that Pakistan is doing wrong to have so much domestic instability. Its quite easy to put all the blame on India but that does not solve your problems.

Did i say all that..
The fact is Indian equation in recent events has been well documented,
but we don't expect any one to come clean since denial seems to be order of the day. You do know that India has more Consulates in Afghanistan than any other country damn, India must be a big attraction for the Afghan tourists. Desi, unlike India we habitually don't keep the butter side down and rest assured inside Pakistan, the only domestic problem of real concern is the power shortages.

 

[Bill Longley]

Is Pakistan innocent then ? are all problems in Pakistan because of external influences ? You can continue to falsely blame India or Israel but that will never solve your problems, Pakistan played a huge role in the creation of many terrorist outfits and that dragon is now coming back to bite you, again as i said before Pakistan's major problem is obsession with India and Kashmir. As long as both continue, these organizations will flourish and will only pull you guys down.

Pakistan created problem WITH HELP OF US AND WESTREN EUROPE
I admit and you will agree we are reaping its fruit and tring our best to eliminate it.

India created Mukti Bahni, LTTE etc just to gain its intrests in process making things worst
today Both India, and Israel are having intrests in the region and they are sponcering , helping worsen the situation to gain their intrests

come on dont deny it that Israeli leadership claimed in past that pkistan is big threat to them
and Indians want stable Pakistan but a weaker pakistan which bows in front of india like bhutan and napal

dont play innocent

 

[SMC]

^^^Never thought foreign media could hold Pakistan responsible so clearly. But it means, the tide is turning and its time Pak takes some serious steps, or in no time would it be labeled another failed state. The international community has started to take notice and soon they will be all over it. US will get another excuse to fight terrorism and safeguard Pak's nukes. I can clearly see, US would at least try to do to Pak what it did to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Things have gotten worse than Libya, and if not cured now, it might become another Somalia, but I pray to God, that day never comes.

Well that's actually Fareed Zakaria, and Indian born American Journalist who has been crying about Pakistan since the beginning of the world. And repeating what he has said a 100 times before. No one else apart from here and there is really saying that.

And btw, I have shown how biased this guy is in another topic. Just an example:

He was complaining about where the aid to Pakistan went to. Musharraf came on his show. Musharraf then explained clearly where the aid went.

Two weeks later, Zakaria goes into the Anderson Cooper show, asking where the aid went, and not mentioning any of what Musharraf said.

This is what I posted in another topic about Fareed Zakaria a while ago:

Was just watching CNN with Anderson Cooper and Fareed Zakaria and some defence analyst (David Gergen I think). I can't believe how much crap and false information they were spewing against Pakistan.

They were questioning the military operation and particularly how so many civilians are being displaced, and saying that civilians being displaced will not work in the long run and that civilians being displaced is good for the Taliban. This is seriously what they said, no joke or exaggaration. Seriously WTF do they expect? Army taking out Taliban while potentially killing lots of civilians and Taliban using human shields?

Then they questioned what happened with the 10 billion dollars aid. Fareed Zakaria was right there with Musharraf last week when he was telling him how they 10 billion dollars were spent. But he did not spoke a word about that in this interview, and continued talking like he doesn't know what happened with the 10 billion dollars.

Then Fareed Zakaria also questioned why nothing is being done in Quetta. Musharraf talked about this in his interview but he did not say anything that Musharraf said.

 

[T-Faz]

I think American policymakers did the best and most reasonable job they could, with the minor exception of allegations of truck-mounted bioweapons, which should have invited more skepticism.

I have the same question.

There is a big difference between a population liberated and then abandoned vs. one not liberated at all. The first is exposed to retribution by the terrorists, the second is merely mulcted and subject to conscription. I don't know how many Afghan citizens were left behind by the withdrawal, and I sure wasn't happy to read about it.

I wasn't aware that the Pakistani decision was considered "malicious intent". By whom? Yet leaving these areas in the hands of terrorists still yields to them a breeding ground for more recruits and areas for training. I hope that will be a very temporary situation.

I don't see the Iraq and Afghan situations as similar. There was no Pakistan next door to Iraq.

Have I blamed the PA or ISI for any terrorism of the past year? I don't think so. Yet for generations the PA and ISI have been active in creating state-supported "stateless" terrorists (or "Pakistani infiltrators" as the State Dept. called them in old cables) and I don't think they have been willing to give that up yet - only that the terrorists freed themselves from state control to strike out on their own. For now, Pakistan may be training new groups and letting the few active ones that remain sleep for a while (or remain inactive as long as India remains vigilant on its border.)

Do you think it has the same effect to the same extent in both countries?

I've suggested before that the GoP should consider axing its public relations consultant in the U.S. and seek out another firm. Failure is, after all, a demonstration of their effectiveness.

On the other hand, I have heard former American policymakers complain that reaching the Pakistani public is very difficult, since the newspaper circulation is low and the reach of Pakistani TV is not great. Their implication is that the power of the media is not so important in Pakistan.

I have two questions for you, do you agree with William Casey (CIA Chief) who ordered attacks by militants (Mujahideen) within USSR territory during Soveit occupation of Afghanistan. That seemed to have triggered off a wave of attacks in enemy territory through proxy groups. Such a use of attacks is considered important for a CIA chief as he wanted to inflict damage but imagine the country which is under attack and their view point. It is nothing but a terrorist attack that was perpetrated by CIA and perhaps such attacks continue to this day.

Similarly you said that the power of the media is not so important in Pakistan, on one hand you say that American policymakers complain about this on the other hand there have been articles and opinion of some well known commentators that say, 'Pakistanis are led to beleive anti western rhetoric according to their media groups.'

What is up for debate is an article by a clearly biased man who originates from India. His view point is often that Pakistan is causing all the problems in the world and what he fails to mention is the intelligent policies of the GoUS that have caused a war to get dragged out for such a long time.

In my opinion, working with someone who has clearly suffered more is the main task for US and not openly criticising and harrasing Pakistan into actions that will have further implications.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Well as for as Maoists are concrened they dont blow them selves up and export terrorism around the world like your TTP do.

so Nepal and even Bengali maoists have nothing to do with the maoist movement in india?

They are not a religious organisations fighting against infedels ..

TTP is not a religious organization either, no matter how hard they try to project themselves that way. If that were the case, they wouldn't be caught with bottles of smuggled wine, heroin; they wouldnt be attacking Mosques and killing Muslims.

it is an ideological organization; and it is being funded and supported from elements outside and even inside the country.

the naxalite movement is also ideological; indian spin-masters will be quick to say that they are just poor people and they are no threat

they conveniently forget that your own pm singh labelled them (not TTP or Let) as ''single biggest threat [to hindustan]''

Our govt.consider them as a menace and it is a internal problem of India only..

''menace''



they killed 75 policemen a few weeks back (and took their arms!)

just yesterday or day before yesterday they murdered a Congress leader; around the same time, they also blew up a few schools



''menace''

is that the case of TTP and other terrorist organisations orginated from Pakistan??

we acknowledge them as a threat. Follow the counter-insurgency operations and news/discussion threads. There are over 3 very active ones in the War section. You can go and learn how we are dealing with this threat, despite their cowardly counter-attacks in which mostly civilians die.

Who is to be blamed for all those peoples from your country who involved in terrorists action around the world ..most of the terrorists action has some how related to Pakistan

and we set aside our pride and did something about it.....india has also had its fair share of international terrorists. One of the suspects in the failed London bombing was an indian (as an example)

may be you guys have fun hearing the baseless reports of women soldiers in BSF are whores..but its our soldiers and they gurad our border ..and we gave them proper respect ..

well we know about the booming prostitution industry in hindustan (a key contributor to the scourge of reported and un-reported HIV/AIDS cases existing in that country). That's just informal economy sector, we can discuss that elsewhere

but as for these specific reports of indians deploying prostitutes for their soldiers (i dont know if its 100% true or not) - it may have something to do with phenomenon like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6178421.stm

Bringing Dalits or Maosists will never make your country any better..you can sleep better by pointing figures at the situation of India..but in the end you are the one dealing with all these menace and you are your own in this battle

Pakistan is doing its best to first eliminate threats to its own soil. National interests come first before ANYTHING else.

We are, however, happy to extend support internationally to help combat terrorism. Those well-versed (and not relying on phoneys with self-imagined credentials) know our efforts have had much success. We've had some short-comings. But we are a responsible nation and do not condone terrorism.

I am happy about our role in helping Sri Lanka eliminate the indian supported/armed Tamil tigers group. They were responsible for fighting and civil war in the island country for over 25 bloody years, God only knows how many civilians they killed.

 

[desiman]

Pakistan created problem WITH HELP OF US AND WESTREN EUROPE
I admit and you will agree we are reaping its fruit and tring our best to eliminate it.

India created Mukti Bahni, LTTE etc just to gain its intrests in process making things worst
today Both India, and Israel are having intrests in the region and they are sponcering , helping worsen the situation to gain their intrests

come on dont deny it that Israeli leadership claimed in past that pkistan is big threat to them
and Indians want stable Pakistan but a weaker pakistan which bows in front of india like bhutan and napal

dont play innocent

Im not playing innocent or anything, nor am i claiming to be an expert in south asia like many other people here who seem to know more than many Governments. I dont want to comment on the Mukti Bahni and LTTE as those are different issues and that will change the topic. The fact of the matter is the GOP's internal and external policies continuously put Pakistan in an embarrassing situation and that is what you must stop. Even if these countries are meddling inside Pakistan they have enough local support to do that, which should be a worrysome factor for Pakistan. I recommend GOP to change its policies and take care of the hugely corrupt judicial and administrative systems that are forcing many to join hands against the country. What Pakistan faces today is largely due to the mishandling of domestic issues by previous governments and dictators. Zia derailed Pakistan's growth and Musharaf derailed the peace process. Its time for you guys to pay closer attention to Pakistan rather than being worried about India or the subcontinent.

 

[desiman]

Did i say all that..
The fact is Indian equation in recent events has been well documented,
but we don't expect any one to come clean since denial seems to be order of the day. You do know that India has more Consulates in Afghanistan than any other country damn, India must be a big attraction for the Afghan tourists. Desi, unlike India we habitually don't keep the butter side down and rest assured inside Pakistan, the only domestic problem of real concern is the power shortages.

you seem to be having more info on what India is doing in Afghanistan than what is happening in Pakistan. Afghanistan and India share a long history of friendship even before the existence of Pakistan so its natural we help them out. The so called Indian equation your talking about only exist in stupid blogs or Zaid Hamid websites, no proof has ever or will ever be provided as it does not exist. Its almost become habit to blame India for all your domestic issues, from water to terrorism.

 

[T-Faz]

Im not playing innocent or anything, nor am i claiming to be an expert in south asia like many other people here who seem to know more than many Governments. I dont want to comment on the Mukti Bahni and LTTE as those are different issues and that will change the topic. The fact of the matter is the GOP's internal and external policies continuously put Pakistan in an embarrassing situation and that is what you must stop. Even if these countries are meddling inside Pakistan they have enough local support to do that, which should be a worrysome factor for Pakistan. I recommend GOP to change its policies and take care of the hugely corrupt judicial and administrative systems that are forcing many to join hands against the country. What Pakistan faces today is largely due to the mishandling of domestic issues by previous governments and dictators. Zia derailed Pakistan's growth and Musharaf derailed the peace process. Its time for you guys to pay closer attention to Pakistan rather than being worried about India or the subcontinent.

I do not like Zia but he did not derail Pakistan's growth, the growth was spurred by sanctions on Pak by the USG through Pressler Amendments and also the fact that millions of Afghanis who did not leave Pak and crippled our civil society.

Reagrding the peace plan, Musharaf himself proposed a plan that did not happen becuase of the judges scandal and if that had happened, it would have sorted out the problems.

 

[Bang Galore]

p.s. he studied under Samuel P. Huntington --author of the controversial 'clash of civilizations'..... that should tell you something

What does it tell you? That Fareed Zakaria is well educated?

It's funny to see Huntington dragged into this though after reading about American doctors being called terrorists, something that seemed to get a lot of approval (signs of desperation?), I should not be surprised.

If anything I would have thought a whole lot of you on this forum would agree with Huntington on his idea of the "clash of civilisations". Many here clearly argue that Hindu/Indian and Christian/Western civilisations are somehow incompatible with Muslim civilisation and that they are doomed to be in conflict with each other forever.

Huntington's words actually sounds fairly prophetic in these days of WoT and with mainland Europe clamping down on Islamic symbols.

BTW Fareed Zakaria wouldn't probably agree with Huntington but given your posts, it's a fair bet that you are in closer agreement with Huntington's thesis.

 

[Isaq Khan]

Well that's actually Fareed Zakaria, and Indian born American Journalist who has been crying about Pakistan since the beginning of the world. And repeating what he has said a 100 times before. No one else apart from here and there is really saying that.

And btw, I have shown how biased this guy is in another topic. Just an example:

He was complaining about where the aid to Pakistan went to. Musharraf came on his show. Musharraf then explained clearly where the aid went.

Two weeks later, Zakaria goes into the Anderson Cooper show, asking where the aid went, and not mentioning any of what Musharraf said.

This is what I posted in another topic about Fareed Zakaria a while ago:

why are you propagating false info???

"The army itself got very little," said retired Gen. Mahmud Durrani, who was Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S. under Musharraf. "It went to things like subsidies, which is why everything looked hunky-dory. The military was financing the war on terror out of its own budget."

Full news @

Billions In US Aid Never Reached Pakistan Army - CBS News

1. You can dismiss Zakaria saying it Indian but can u dismiss a Pakistani General Mahmud Durrani?????????


2. And what about the words of Pervez Musharraf himself, confessing his crime????

U.S. aid was used on defence against India, says Musharraf | mysore | India

 

[Thomas]

Well that's actually Fareed Zakaria, and Indian born American Journalist who has been crying about Pakistan since the beginning of the world. And repeating what he has said a 100 times before. No one else apart from here and there is really saying that.

I've seen Pakistani members here that believe there are good and bad Taliban. Admit the Afghan Taliban are good becuase they further Pakistan's Geo political ambitions. And it is no secret that the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban work together on both sides of the border. Escaped Kidnap victims have witnessed this first hand. They all use the same networks and derive money from the same sources. There were even some here that seemed dismayed that the ISI allowed the capture of senior Afghan Taliban recently.

On the other side of the coin I know there are Pakistani members here that know. what has been said in the CNN article is true. The question is why don't you speak up more?

 

[SMC]

why are you propagating false info???

"The army itself got very little," said retired Gen. Mahmud Durrani, who was Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S. under Musharraf. "It went to things like subsidies, which is why everything looked hunky-dory. The military was financing the war on terror out of its own budget."

Full news @

Billions In US Aid Never Reached Pakistan Army - CBS News

1. You can dismiss Zakaria saying it Indian but can u dismiss a Pakistani General Mahmud Durrani?????????


2. And what about the words of Pervez Musharraf himself, confessing his crime????

U.S. aid was used on defence against India, says Musharraf | mysore | India

Why are you going off tangent. I have discussed fareed zakaria in the following topic:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...61-pm-singh-interview-fareed-zakaria-cnn.html

Quick two page topic. I really get into him at the end of the first page and the beginning of the second. I want you guys to look at posts #14, 15, 16. This is as clear a case as it gets about someone using their emotions. And btw, no Indian or American came to his defence in that topic.

And btw, Musharraf answered all those questions on the interview he had with Zakaria.

 

[desiman]

I do not like Zia but he did not derail Pakistan's growth, the growth was spurred by sanctions on Pak by the USG through Pressler Amendments and also the fact that millions of Afghanis who did not leave Pak and crippled our civil society.

Reagrding the peace plan, Musharaf himself proposed a plan that did not happen becuase of the judges scandal and if that had happened, it would have sorted out the problems.

actually its well documented that Musharaff initiated Kargil to gain power and also derailed the ongoing peace process which saw our prime minister visit Lahore via bus. At that time the talks was on and its hinted that a solution to Kashmir wasn't very far away. Zia is the person who radicalized Pakistan with his ideologies and thats where the ball was set rolling.