OK thank you for the discussion....
But to what will israel listen to us on?
The question is not about US recognition of Israel though we did question to what did Israel listen so far to?
I mean simply saying UN has requested their presence in Israel (after recognizing it) but so far israel has refused it...How much help was that?
UK protests every fight israel launches on Palestinians....how has that made israel weak in the knees?
Let say for the sake of argument that we recognize Israel, what do we hold that will make it listen? Do we have a stronghold to let in our comments or will we play the puppet UN role?
Take a step back first, before answering those questions, let me ask, as I haven't asked this before:
Do you only protest Israel's actions or the entirety of the state and seek to not recognize its existence, so that you can deny its existence or so that you can limit it to whatever decent standard we may see fit?
Now if the answer is that you wish for a 2 state solution, then without need of further forethought you should be accepting to the idea of recognising Israel. We in our current state, we are not even in the picture, we're a country of 200 million, disconnected with thousands miles of land and sea, Israel despite being tiny, has a much larger GDP and we have hardly any trade with them either, they have the backing of the most powerful nation and the blessing of the richest block of nations (or so it may seem to us).
So what do you propose be done to further the cause of peace and of legitimate Palestinian statehood? Although Pakistan will remain not very relevant, until it can build up the economy and be a larger player... in the mean time, do we continue to be distant protesters that do literally nothing productive and even when applying pressure be our wish? We're not in any position to issue forth any said pressure, even though none may gainsay us in our wrath and rage at seeing the injustice.
For what little we can do, I'd suggest we recognise Israel, build diplomatic and trade relations, and then see ourselves to be in a position of influence, albeit minor influence, and use it as leverage, as ground for conversation and relations to voice our concerns when necessary, take concrete steps to make our protest heard, and if not heard, then may it be felt. Other reasons for doing this is that it places the Israelis and their supporters in a positions where they cannot delegitimise our protest simply because we already take an extreme stance on their nation, and that in said knowledge they would not wish to heed anything that we say. They can't take the stance that all the Muslim world is somehow against them and that no peace can be had thus with us. The neutral powers can look and perceive that Israel would seek to deny statehood for Palestine yet all the other Muslim nations might recognise it and advise it to seek a resolution.
Such steps would then also further dent Israel credibility at a diplomatic level and among neutral powers. Right now, the current approach is neither productive nor useful. If we don't try any other way, it is solely because of our pride and in its end it is folly, and perhaps even counter productive.
Extremely well argued. The already significant change in Israeli Foreign Policy posture critical issues like Iran suggest that US is not playing ball with Israel and for once it is Israel which has to bend to accommodate US.
Pakistan is a fringe player in Israeli - Palestinian politics with no direct stakes and it will remain so as long as it continues with it's naïve policy which is atleast overtly that Israel is bad. Diplomacy needs to be conduct with a touch of empathy and an understanding of the issues faced by other side too. Pakistan has to realised that Palestine issue is multi-layered and complex with both sides having legitimate concerns, requiring a nuanced approach not a faulty principled one.
Absolutely true, I agree. As far as where Pakistanis are in the picture (or perhaps that they aren't in the picture), the current approach has done literally nothing. A few truths need to be accepted when it comes to these issues, and a stand on where we see an end resolution recognised before we seek to do anything at all.
So far it seems to me, Pakistanis are angry, but don't want to do anything drastic, worked up but unable to be heard. We do not have any issues with the state of Israel to with regards to our own state or see it as a threat, yet we're angered by the treatment of Palestinians, yet for that we do not wish to see Israel obliterated or any extreme resolution that means bloodshed, yet for the question of resolution... it is unclear whether we are even ready to recognize Israel as a state, and here we are discussing end resolutions and our stance.
With that in mind, the only end result I can see of the status quo, is end resolution in Pakistani minds being; no more Israel, be it by war in which we play no part or by the will of God. Which as an end result, is neither a solution, nor is it practical, or reasonable or humane.
If you are making case for Pakistan recognizing Israel, that doesn't bother me. All Arab states already do, I'm just telling you that won't make a difference because local nations are not interested in using any kind of gain to promote peace. If you understood Arab politics you'd understand it.
I agree. In our current position, even if we were to take steps, this way or that and then voice our concern, it will do little. But... that little is more than what we're doing now.
@Jungibaaz
I appreciate your response and the sense that it makes, but you are looking at it from the British perspective. The UK enjoys ties with Israel and have had a part in its formation. I don't believe Pakistan will be able to do anything for Palestine with or without relations with Israel. It has no reason to listen to what we might have to say.
Sad to say this, but we tend to exaggerate our own importance in the world. We are a regional power with regional limits to our foreign policy.
I don't doubt that, as I've said above, our importance is next to nothing not because of our approach, but more because of our lack of power, economic might or any relevance to geopolitics of the immediate region in discussion.
But for the question of recognising Israel? Why not? Surely, if our will is to see a workable solution, we must arrive to this stage sometime? And why not build relations and use them for the purpose of pressing for peace, even if our voices are faint and our ability lacking? It would be better for all for us to recognise the state, even if that means only slightly better for all. The only thing that might prevent us at this point from recognising Israel is perhaps our anger and pride, and even that I've argued is misplaced if our intention is for our protest to be constructive rather than just for protest' sake.
