Why Pakistan could not be reformed / fixed so far?

[airmarshal]

Our elite is too dependent on aid and loans. We think we can run country on loans. We can only be prosperous when we are self reliant. To be self reliant, we need to export. As we dont have productivity, once our economy begins to grow, we run into deficits.

Our elite has never thought of long term solution. Only in 3.5 years of Imran Khan government, there was a serious effort to do long term reforms.

The other issue is our politics. Just pan the horizon. There are crooks and murderers everywhere. Those who should be in jail are ruling us. These are not politicians. They are thieves. Pakistan has no politics. These are mafias. Politics is based on ideology. Ideology is based on what you want to do for country. Here, there is no politician who is working for our country but only for self interest.

So the issue can only strt to resolve once Sharif family, Zardari and all their accomplices are in jail. Thats the starting point. The other is to focus on economy so that we become self reliant. And please, no foreign wars. We get cheap money in return but the backlash from those wars is what we have today.

 

[Norwegian]

Our elite is too dependent on aid and loans. We think we can run country on loans. We can only be prosperous when we are self reliant. To be self reliant, we need to export. As we dont have productivity, once our economy begins to grow, we run into deficits.

Our elite has never thought of long term solution. Only in 3.5 years of Imran Khan government, there was a serious effort to do long term reforms.

The other issue is our politics. Just pan the horizon. There are crooks and murderers everywhere. Those who should be in jail are ruling us. These are not politicians. They are thieves. Pakistan has no politics. These are mafias. Politics is based on ideology. Ideology is based on what you want to do for country. Here, there is no politician who is working for our country but only for self interest.

So the issue can only strt to resolve once Sharif family, Zardari and all their accomplices are in jail. Thats the starting point. The other is to focus on economy so that we become self reliant. And please, no foreign wars. We get cheap money in return but the backlash from those wars is what we have today.

State of Pakistan allowed back to back PPP and PMLN govts between 1988 - 1999 and then again between 2008 - 2018. But it could not tolerate even 5 years of PTI govt and did everything to fail it so that same old PPP and PMLN govt could be reinstated in its 4th year. I wonder why? Why state of Pakistan is in deep love with same old tried and tested parties? Why can't it work with new and better party / parties?

 

[UKBengali]

SK?, Israel to some extent (their generals are powerful), Vietnam with powerful generals

Israel and Vietnam were always run by civilian governments. Influence from military for sure but the civilians had the final say in the running of the country, especially the economy.

As for S Korea, yes it was taken over in a military coup but then the army general went into politics full time by forming his own party. He could no longer be considered to be a general then.

Problem with Pakistan is the serving army generals either run the country directly or dictate to the civilian government ever since independence in 1947.

You are either a general or a politician but cannot do both at the same time as has been proved in Pakistan.

 

[Maula Jatt]

1. Expenses on Defence. For a developing country 4% + of GDP on defence is steep. BD for instance does 1.3%
2. Land reforms have been delayed for too long and that allowed land lords to become polticians meaning old leeches are new leeches. India did that and captured lands of land lords with ceiling on farm land.
3. Defence forces was never made sub-ordinate to civilians in practice. Forces are doing too much civilian work. They should be doing defence. This means businesses and hence opportunites are limited forces. India did this. This is why no coup in India.
4. No proper border protection on Afghanistan end. Too many refugees and illegal immigrants.
5. Too strong leanings in one camp. USA in past, now China/Russia. You need to play both.
6. No proper use of LDC status. BD did this.
7. Too less expenditure on education. 2.3 % of GDP India does 3.5% -- not massive but still more.
8. Leaving Punjab, almost all of the provinces are very less developed. Balochistan and KPK have massive mineral resources but unutilized.

1- no compromise on defense, that's a consensus among every part of society except for maybe central Punjab
2- umh to some extent yeah but now big landowners are a shadow of themselves and do not command even 1/3rd of the power they did 2-3 decades ago
3- we are a security state akin to Israel, they also have powerful generals but it never comes into proper civilian affairs- In anything related even slightly related to security generals rule, Id follow Israel's way or some other security state and not India, we cant do India
4- share ethnic boundaries which makes it extremely difficult to meaningfully control borders, our side also tried to act oversmart
5- maybe this is needed? not everyone can play both sides, we have constant and consistent security needs
6- I don't know LDC but we for the most part of our history were second best in South Asia after Sri lanka, don't know if even applied or not
7- Alright, I cant disagree too much
8- MASSIVE F_UP, except for Karachi, Punjab none of the other provinces were developed or their resources used- KPK is working in the right direction, Baluchistan remains to be seen, Interior Sindh wont go anywhere

Israel and Vietnam were always run by civilian governments. Influence from military for sure but the civilians had the final say in the running of the country, especially the economy.

As for S Korea, yes it was taken over in a military coup but then the army general went into politics full time by forming his own party. He could no longer be considered to be a general then.

Problem with Pakistan is the serving army generals either run the country directly or dictat to the civilian government ever since independence in 1947.

You are either a general or a politician but cannot do both at the same time as has been proved in Pakistan.

dude you do know that both Vietnam and Egypt are famous for military controlling major companies, businesses
same with China pre-2008

 

[VCheng]

Army has ultimate control of Pakistan since 1947.

No country run by its army has ever been economically successful.

And yet, by any standard, Pak Army has been hugely successful in everything it has set its mind to do.

 

[Norwegian]

And yet, by any standard, Pak Army has been hugely successful in everything it has set its mind to do.

? You call this mess an economic success story?

 

[UKBengali]

dude you do know that both Vietnam and Egypt are famous for military controlling major companies, businesses
same with China pre-2008

How is that anything to do with who ultimately controls the levers of power?

Like I say no country run by the military has ever been economically successful.

If you can name me one then I will admit I was wrong.

 

[airmarshal]

State of Pakistan allowed back to back PPP and PMLN govts between 1988 - 1999 and then again between 2008 - 2018. But it could not tolerate even 5 years of PTI govt and did everything to fail it so that same old PPP and PMLN govt could be reinstated in its 4th year. I wonder why? Why state of Pakistan is in deep love with same old tried and tested parties? Why can't it work with new and better party / parties?

Wonder why?

All the power structure groups are beneficiary of this extremely corrupt system. Bureaucracy, military and judiciary. For them corruption is not an issue. This is status quo. Its us Pakistanis, all together who will smash this status quo. Its also us who will kick out military establishment from politics. We should be the guardians of our country no matter its Imran Khan or any other political party.

We also need to ensure all crooks are in jail. This is only when we will begin to think about and talk about the issues of Pakistan. Otherwise this circus will continue.

 

[VCheng]

You call this mess an economic success story?

Well, please plot out the trajectory for the Pak Army. My point is well-made.

 

[jamal18]

Army has ultimate control of Pakistan since 1947.

No country run by its army has ever been economically successful.

Taiwan? South Korea?

 

[Norwegian]

Well, please plot out the trajectory for the Pak Army. My point is well-made.

Army cannot survive without the country. If we overseas Pakistanis stop sending remittances or IMF and other lenders stop lending, Pakistan will default and go bankrupt just like Sri Lanka

Pakistan can't make new loans to payback old loans for ever. It's a ponzi scheme. Sooner or later lenders will stop lending and then the inevitable will happen whether army likes it or not

 

[HydraChess]

1- no compromise on defense, that's a consensus among every part of society except for central Punjab

You never had any strong enemies. Kashmir is only issue. Could have simply solved it by "keep what you got and we will keep what we have". The you do not need to match India or have a LoC that turns into warzone at every least opportune time.. Its simply decisions.

2- umh to some extent yeah but now big landowners are a shadow of themselves and do not command even 1/3rd of the power they did 2-3 decades ago

3 decade ago it was 1990s. And by then your land lords would have moved their money out. You need to eat your rich leeches to grow. India ate land lords and kings; Japan ate its Zaibatsus. You need to eat your own rich.

3- we are a security state akin to Israel, they also have powerful generals but it never comes into proper civilian affairs- In anything related even slightly related to security generals rule, Id follow Israel's way or some other security state and not India, we cant do India

To follow israel's way you need an America. Right now you do not have that much handle on USA or China as Israel does on USA.

4- share ethnic boundaries which makes it extremely difficult to meaningfully control borders, our side also tried to act oversmart

Again, lookout for yourself first.

6- I don't know LDC but we for the most part of our history were second best in South Asia after Sri lanka, don't know if even applied or not

Least Developed Country status. Gives easy access to export market in USA and EU. leave the label or its meaning. Its the privledge to make easy money that it brings that matters.

 

[VCheng]

Army cannot survive without the country. If we overseas Pakistanis stop sending remittances or IMF and other lenders stop lending, Pakistan will default and go bankrupt just like Sri Lanka

Well, it seems to be doing just fine, including remittances, which will remain steady and likely continue to show steady increases for the next few years at least.

 

[Cheepek]

It's because people of Pakistan lie to themselves all the time. Everything else is just a logical outcome of this trait.

 

[Norwegian]

Well, it seems to be doing just fine, including remittances, which will remain steady and likely continue to show steady increases for the next few years at least.

Pakistan is short of 10 - 15 billion dollars a year. Exports and remittances can cover import bill but not debt repayments. So Pakistan must take on at least 10 billion dollars new debt per year to cover this deficit. That's why Pakistan's external debt is not stabilizing and if kept unchecked will lead to a Sri Lanka like situation in near future