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Why Pakistan Airforce needs to make its own medium weight fighter

Fighting Falcon 01

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Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.

6) F 16s are limited only 75

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .


What path should PAF take :
1) Thunder was a success follow the same path . A joint venture with China or Turkey seems to be the ideal choice.

2) That way we can take the engine from Russia through China maybe RD 33

3) We can use our own AESA radar
4) Integrate Chinese, Turkish and Pakistani weapons

5) That way it can have Chinese Turkish and Pakistani tech on it .

6) Follow the Block building approach that way we can keep the aircraft relevant.

7) Thunder didn't cost a large amount if it is a JV we can keep the cost down.
8) development time should be 5 to 6 years and with help of our Chinese and Turkish brothers we can have our very own Rafael in 5 to 6 years.


Benefits of our own Medium weight fighter :
1) It will be cost effective like the Thunder

2) It will have both western and eastern tech

3) It will be able to carry more
BVRAAMS just 4 will be fine

4) It will be able to act like an EW bird like EA 18

5) 9 to 12 billion usd saved for purchasing 36 stop gap fighters to counter Rafael.

6) It can have our own weapons like indigenous BVRAAM.

7) No strings attached.

8) No more begging to USA for F16s

9) While Indians keep giving money to France and US and getting milked.

10 ) We can use it and integrate any weapon we want .

11) That combined with jf 17 block 3 will give nightmares to hinduvata goons till Azm arrives and matures.

12 ) It will keep Kamra busy and we will get more experience in designing and developing fighter aircraft.

13) Who knows if Turkey inducts the aircraft too because they get blackmailed by US they too can have a good platform t which does not have strings attached.

14) It can be the platform on which we can test Azms tech.

15) All Pakistanis need is vision which we sadly lack. We need to get out of slave mentality that we cannot make anything good . We have to start somewhere right?



Sorry for any mistakes this is my first post please be forgiving .
I have a lot to learn so I can be wrong too forgive me for any mistakes.
Have a nice day.
 
Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.

6) F 16s are limited only 75

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .


What path should PAF take :
1) Thunder was a success follow the same path . A joint venture with China or Turkey seems to be the ideal choice.

2) That way we can take the engine from Russia through China maybe RD 33

3) We can use our own AESA radar
4) Integrate Chinese, Turkish and Pakistani weapons

5) That way it can have Chinese Turkish and Pakistani tech on it .

6) Follow the Block building approach that way we can keep the aircraft relevant.

7) Thunder didn't cost a large amount if it is a JV we can keep the cost down.
8) development time should be 5 to 6 years and with help of our Chinese and Turkish brothers we can have our very own Rafael in 5 to 6 years.


Benefits of our own Medium weight fighter :
1) It will be cost effective like the Thunder

2) It will have both western and eastern tech

3) It will be able to carry more
BVRAAMS just 4 will be fine

4) It will be able to act like an EW bird like EA 18

5) 9 to 12 billion usd saved for purchasing 36 stop gap fighters to counter Rafael.

6) It can have our own weapons like indigenous BVRAAM.

7) No strings attached.

8) No more begging to USA for F16s

9) While Indians keep giving money to France and US and getting milked.

10 ) We can use it and integrate any weapon we want .

11) That combined with jf 17 block 3 will give nightmares to hinduvata goons till Azm arrives and matures.

12 ) It will keep Kamra busy and we will get more experience in designing and developing fighter aircraft.

13) Who knows if Turkey inducts the aircraft too because they get blackmailed by US they too can have a good platform t which does not have strings attached.

14) It can be the platform on which we can test Azms tech.

15) All Pakistanis need is vision which we sadly lack. We need to get out of slave mentality that we cannot make anything good . We have to start somewhere right?



Sorry for any mistakes this is my first post please be forgiving .
I have a lot to learn so I can be wrong too forgive me for any mistakes.
Have a nice day.
First of all welcome to the forum, and no need for start new thread for these questions, you can ask these questions in Air force question thread, first we haven't any giant aviation Industries like USA/Russia/China have , we don't have any experiences to research and develop fighter jets, JF-17 projects is the first step for achieving this goal, we are moving step by step, and bro we currently lacking $$$ so how can we start medium weight jet project without $$$$, this project want lots of $$$$., if we somehow launch this project we have lack to make some critical techs need for this project like Engine is the big hurdle, Avionics, and if we launch this project let suppose 2020, it will be completed after the project AZM, so think about it bro
 
We need to buy them. Can't work on Azm and other projects at same time. No urgency except for the Mirages.
 
We need to buy them. Can't work on Azm and other projects at same time. No urgency except for the Mirages.
Where will the money come to buy them even 36 new medium weight fighters will cost somewhere between 9 to 12$ billion and they'll come with strings attached. If we try a JV then we can have our own fighter in less than a decade . We still dont know what Azm will be capable of and don't forget that 5th gen fighter aircraft need to be maintained too which costs too much so why not invest in 4+ gen MWF till we make Azm. Mirages are too old they regularly kill our pilots mirages must be replaced first and that is only possible with this approach make a medium weight Thunder.
 
Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory
Ans: Adding JF-17 is fastest solution.

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .
Ans: PAF don't need range to strike deep inside in India, this role is fulfilled by missiles and SOWs, JF-17 has decent range. New Engine (WS-13) will increase its payload capabilities and range a lot.

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .
Ans: It definitely can, on 27 Feb, 4 mirages delivered 2 H4s, and 2 JF-17 delivered 4 bombs. JF-17 can do better then mirages.

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .
Ans: Again New Engine WS-13 is needed.

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.
Ans: Again New Engine WS-13 is needed.

6) F 16s are limited only 75
Ans: JF-17 is fastest possible induction.

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s
Ans: JF-17 block 3 will carry PL-15, comparable to meteor.

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.
Ans: Use mid air refiling (JF-17 can do it).

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone
Ans: A new platform either we make or purchase, will take much more money and time.

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael
Ans: JF-17 with do it. (WS-13 engine -> more fuel + more PL-15s + KLJ-7A2)

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .
Ans: JF-17 is cheaper.

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.
Ans: JF-17 has the potential to become medium weight (WS-13)

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .
Ans: JF-17
 
Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.

6) F 16s are limited only 75

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .


What path should PAF take :
1) Thunder was a success follow the same path . A joint venture with China or Turkey seems to be the ideal choice.

2) That way we can take the engine from Russia through China maybe RD 33

3) We can use our own AESA radar
4) Integrate Chinese, Turkish and Pakistani weapons

5) That way it can have Chinese Turkish and Pakistani tech on it .

6) Follow the Block building approach that way we can keep the aircraft relevant.

7) Thunder didn't cost a large amount if it is a JV we can keep the cost down.
8) development time should be 5 to 6 years and with help of our Chinese and Turkish brothers we can have our very own Rafael in 5 to 6 years.


Benefits of our own Medium weight fighter :
1) It will be cost effective like the Thunder

2) It will have both western and eastern tech

3) It will be able to carry more
BVRAAMS just 4 will be fine

4) It will be able to act like an EW bird like EA 18

5) 9 to 12 billion usd saved for purchasing 36 stop gap fighters to counter Rafael.

6) It can have our own weapons like indigenous BVRAAM.

7) No strings attached.

8) No more begging to USA for F16s

9) While Indians keep giving money to France and US and getting milked.

10 ) We can use it and integrate any weapon we want .

11) That combined with jf 17 block 3 will give nightmares to hinduvata goons till Azm arrives and matures.

12 ) It will keep Kamra busy and we will get more experience in designing and developing fighter aircraft.

13) Who knows if Turkey inducts the aircraft too because they get blackmailed by US they too can have a good platform t which does not have strings attached.

14) It can be the platform on which we can test Azms tech.

15) All Pakistanis need is vision which we sadly lack. We need to get out of slave mentality that we cannot make anything good . We have to start somewhere right?



Sorry for any mistakes this is my first post please be forgiving .
I have a lot to learn so I can be wrong too forgive me for any mistakes.
Have a nice day.
PAF mind set is pretty clear
Push the mirages till 2030-35 via canbalizing the huge fleet ..
Jf17 full throttle as replacement ..yes jf17 can do eveeything batter than what mirages could have done..inculding strike missions..its paylaod, range, engine is same or better than mirages
Bonus f16 or j10s if available on favourable terms..

Develop azm as fast as possible
 
First of all welcome to the forum, and no need for start new thread for these questions, you can ask these questions in Air force question thread, first we haven't any giant aviation Industries like USA/Russia/China have , we don't have any experiences to research and develop fighter jets, JF-17 projects is the first step for achieving this goal, we are moving step by step, and bro we currently lacking $$$ so how can we start medium weight jet project without $$$$, this project want lots of $$$$., if we somehow launch this project we have lack to make some critical techs need for this project like Engine is the big hurdle, Avionics, and if we launch this project let suppose 2020, it will be completed after the project AZM, so think about it bro
Yes sir we do lack a good aviation industry but how did we make Thunder? Why not follow the same approach for a MWF it will solve the old mirage problem. I'm sure China and Turkey would help too we can't bet everything on Azm. 5th gen aircraft are difficult to make and use. Too expensive a stop gap is needed instead of purchasing new aircraft why not go for a JV

Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory
Ans: Adding JF-17 is fastest solution.

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .
Ans: PAF don't need range to strike deep inside in India, this role is fulfilled by missiles and SOWs, JF-17 has decent range. New Engine (WS-13) will increase its payload capabilities and range a lot.

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .
Ans: It definitely can, on 27 Feb, 4 mirages delivered 2 H4s, and 2 JF-17 delivered 4 bombs. JF-17 can do better then mirages.

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .
Ans: Again New Engine WS-13 is needed.

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.
Ans: Again New Engine WS-13 is needed.

6) F 16s are limited only 75
Ans: JF-17 is fastest possible induction.

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s
Ans: JF-17 block 3 will carry PL-15, comparable to meteor.

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.
Ans: Use mid air refiling (JF-17 can do it).

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone
Ans: A new platform either we make or purchase, will take much more money and time.

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael
Ans: JF-17 with do it. (WS-13 engine -> more fuel + more PL-15s + KLJ-7A2)

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .
Ans: JF-17 is cheaper.

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.
Ans: JF-17 has the potential to become medium weight (WS-13)

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .
Ans: JF-17
So with WS 13 a light weight fighter becomes a medium weight fighter? Can you explain a little please ?
 
Yes sir we do lack a good aviation industry but how did we make Thunder? Why not follow the same approach for a MWF it will solve the old mirage problem. I'm sure China and Turkey would help too we can't bet everything on Azm. 5th gen aircraft are difficult to make and use. Too expensive a stop gap is needed instead of purchasing new aircraft why not go for a JV
But remember bro when its matures (your MWF) we will have the near mature AZM first flight will be in 2028-2030, we have no semi conductor tech (must for AESA) engine one of the biggest hurdle, we don't have research facilitates of doing martial sciences (carbon composites/ aluminium alloys etc etc) and Pakistan takes longer time to develop 4.5th gen jets than China or any develop country, and also our Enemy looking into induct 5th gen jets (F-35) and developing its own 5th gen jets (AMCA)
 
But remember bro when its matures (your MWF) we will have the near mature AZM first flight will be in 2028-2030, we have no semi conductor tech (must for AESA) engine one of the biggest hurdle, we don't have research facilitates of doing martial sciences (carbon composites/ aluminium alloys etc etc) and Pakistan takes longer time to develop 4.5th gen jets than China or any develop country, and also our Enemy looking into induct 5th gen jets (F-35) and developing its own 5th gen jets (AMCA)
Sir if we can't develop a good 4th gen MWF how can we make a 5th gen aircraft surely we dont have the best semi conductor tech or composite tech but we need to start somewhere how did we make JF 17 it was a JV right we can do one with China again and semiconductor technology from Turkey that way we will gain experience for Azm

F16 was light weight, but it is now medium weight. With more powerful engine, JF-17 will overcome its deficiencies.
Nope F16 was already large enough to be converted but Thunder is not . Also the heavy engine and more payload would effect flight characteristics right ?
 
Sir if we can't develop a good 4th gen MWF how can we make a 5th gen aircraft surely we dont have the best semi conductor tech or composite tech but we need to start somewhere how did we make JF 17 it was a JV right we can do one with China again and semiconductor technology from Turkey that way we will gain experience for Azm
JV is the only option sir i don't thinks we are giving priority to your proposed MWF lots of senior/professional members here talking we focusing only on JF-17 block-3 production no new induction or project will be launch by PAF if get lucky we will get few used F-16 in this decade PAF remains same in 2020-2030, and AZM is the JV project with China
 
JV is the only option sir i don't thinks we are giving priority to your proposed MWF lots of senior/professional members here talking we focusing only on JF-17 block-3 production no new induction or project will be launch by PAF if get lucky we will get few used F-16 in this decade PAF remains same in 2020-2030, and AZM is the JV project with China
I don't think JF 17 has more upgrading capacity left after block 3 then I am afraid block 3 is all we have till 2040. But if PAF is satisfied with it then it will work. Thanks for sharing your valuable opinion
 
I don't think JF 17 has more upgrading capacity left after block 3 then I am afraid block 3 is all we have till 2040. But if PAF is satisfied with it then it will work. Thanks for sharing your valuable opinion
no problem sir but you have consider this MWF is big project for Pakistan, we are nothing in the front of giant of aircraft manufacturing countries (like USA/Russia/China/EU) even China is currently struggling to develop decent engine for their jets (WS-10/WS-15/WS-19), their is lots of possible upgrade of JF-17 sfter block-3 like new and high power engines (WS-19 (F-414/ EJ-200 class) more power AESA (Miniaturizing of AESA is also possible) new data links, more avionics upgrades, flat panel panoramic display (like F-35) is also possible, more advance weapons etc etc
 
We already have a Medium to Heavy NGFA Program in shape of Project AZM. You need to understand Designing and building a fighter is no easy thing. Take Azm for example it started in 2017 its Design work will continue till 2021-2022 then a further 5 years to make a prototype and off source some of the subsystems. Evaluation of Prototypes will take another 3-5 years. If all goes to the plan we will see Azm at the start of next Decade. You cant simply make a Jet it takes Billions of Dollars to Design and then build it and its support infrastructure. Even if you start a new Project it wont come before Azm not to mention it will delay Azm and other acquisitions in the pipeline.

At this point PAF will only invest in Azm and JFT. Azm is very important for PAF it will be their baby just like JFT. Designed by them for their own use to do as they please with it without the limitations of JFT program. PAF will make sure to make it a Low cost High performance Aircraft and a Flyway Cost of 60-80 Million will still be less than the alternatives.
 
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