What's new

why pakfa trumps rafale heavily............

he-man

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Aug 29, 2013
Messages
11,018
Reaction score
-28
Country
India
Location
India
source---air international 2013 october edition

1)Two years ago, when the PAKFA made its public debut at Zhukovsky, two aircraft T-50-1 and T-50-2 (the only ones complete at that time) took part in the flying programme.T-50-1 suffered structural cracks and T-50-2’s starboard engine encountered a compressor stall during the take-off roll; a flame several meters long came out of the exhaust nozzle. At the time of MAKS 2011, the aircraft were limited to 5g and did not use variable thrust vectoring.

2)New Sensors

The PAK FA’s N036 radar has five electronically scanned arrays: the forward X-band (centimetre) array, two smaller X-band arrays mounted at the fuselage sides and two L-band (decametre) arrays mounted in the wing leading edges, and a built-in N036Sh Pokosnik (Reaper) IFF system. In the future the N036 radar will also receive a pod-mounted Ka-band (millimetre) antenna. Control is provided by a N036UVS (Universalnaya Vychislitelnaya Sistema) computer and processor.

At MAKS 2009 the forward N036-1-01 X-band active electronically scanned array was oval-shaped, measured 900 x 700mm, had 1,552 transceiver modules and was tilted upward by approximately 15°.

The experimental N036B-1-01 side-looking array unveiled and exhibited at MAKS 2013,was elliptical in shape and comprised 358 transceiver modules arranged in 36 strips.The elliptical-shaped array is carried on a hexagonal mount which currently has enough free space to house 40 more modules that are expected to be installed on the final array design

Two other N036L-1-01 L-band arrays (already fi tted to T-50-3 and T-50-4) are not only used for friend-or-foe identification but
also for ground and aerial target detection. Computer processing of the X- and L-band signals enable the system’s information
to be significantly enhanced.

One component of the N036 Byelka (squirrel) radar not shown at MAKS 2013 was an element of the Sh121 electronic warfare
suite; the L402 Himalaya ECM (electronic countermeasures)system, made for the PAK FA by the KNIRTI institute. The L402
ECM uses two sets of arrays; its own which are distributed around the aircraft (one is fittedin the sting, a large dorsal pod
located between the engine exhaust nozzles), and those of the N036 radar.


Another system available for close inspection for the first time at MAKS 2013 was the 101KSU/ 02 ultraviolet warning sensor
in an angular-shaped pod with two windows – one looking forward and the other to the rear.

One of these is mounted under the T-50’s forward fuselage and the other is on the upper surface of the sting. The
remainder of the 101KS Atoll airborne targets (V for vozdukh – air), the 101KS-U/01 UV (electro optical) suite for the PAK FA was also on display: the 101KS-V EO sight for detection,identification and tracking of (ultraviolet) warning sensor, the
101KS-O IR directional jammer (O for oborona - defence), as well as the 101KS-N EO targeting pod (N for nazemnyi –
ground).

3) Programme Status

A group of 30 engineers from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is working in Moscow with the Sukhoi team. Their efforts are currently focussed on preliminary projects involving aircraft components,for example, the N079 radar, a Russian-Indian equivalent of the Russian N036 radar, designed by the Tikhomirov NIIP radar company from Zhukovsky.

The sixth T-50 prototype is supposed to be the first aircraft that will be tested in India after Russian trials are complete.

4) Lack of Aircraft

For some time, prototype T-50-3 has been flying with two under-wing pylons indicating that missiles have been carried,although none have been seen.

Officially, there are three types of internally-carried weapons designed for the PAK FA: the Kh-38M tactical air-to-surface
missile, the Kh-58UShK antiradiation missile and 250kg (551lb) KAB-250 guided bomb

5) Second-stage Engine

The NPO Saturn engine manufacturing company’s CEO Ilya Fedorov said at a Moscow press conference in July that work on the ‘second-stage’ izdeliye (item) 30 engine for the PAK FA was going “very well” and “the [design] characteristics of the engine are much better than expected by Sukhoi.”


The izdeliye 30 is a cleansheet design characterised by higher thrust, lighter weight, a smaller number of elements and lower operating costs. The ‘cold’ section will have a threestage compressor (there are four in the T-50’s current izdeliye 117 engine) and a single-stage turbine; the ‘hot’ section (the engine core) has a five-stage compressor (instead of nine stages) and a single-stage turbine.


PAK-FA1.jpg

PAK-FA2.jpg

PAK-FA3.jpg

pakfa-4.jpg

pakfa5.jpg


Now before ppl start shouting that rafale and pakfa have diff roles

pls read about the side facing radars-----------they are specifically for ground mapping and attack!!


so whats the need of rafale if i ask again??especially when it is established that delivery will start only in mid 2017 after deal is signed in mid 2014??
 
.
still i expect the usual rafale fanboys attacking me but fact remains this jet is gonna trump rafale big way

the problem is or danger i may say is that we sign the rafale contract and start delaying this contract which is whats happening when we urgently need a 5 th gen fighter not a 4.5

lastly why did we reduce order to 144 aircrafts??

can anyone seriously explain

We are trying to

1)make lca mk 1
2)lca mk 2 prototype
3)sign rafale deal
4)sign pakfa deal
5)designing aura
6)maybe even designing amca

is this normal planning??
 
.
we need rafale to punch ho;es in enemies arial defence network and exploit holes in enemies radar shields and make a gateway for heavy cavellery @ MKI , M2K,MIG 29 & Jags

PAKFA/FGFA do it way better than rafale as FGFA/PAKFA are stealth 5th GEN while rafale is 4.5+ at max

so if we have to choose between the two IAF should go for the russian machiens and try to have mix of eastern & western origin wepons on it :coffee:
 
.
One more piece of info for u guys

Pakfa's final shaping will come in form of t-50 7

Right now t-50 5 is being built,,,,then t-50 6 will be built and it will be a static model only for testing and modification of stealth shaping
 
.
The cost of buying and maintaining a 5th generation aircraft is significantly higher than a 4.5 gen. Just look at the cost of maintaining the F-22. A huge fleet of 5th gen fighters needs enormous resources. Better to have a mix of 5th and 4.5 gen fighters - helps fill up the numbers, while still giving you stealth capability to take out high value, highly defended targets.
 
.
we need rafale to punch ho;es in enemies arial defence network and exploit holes in enemies radar shields and make a gateway for heavy cavellery @ MKI , M2K,MIG 29 & Jags

PAKFA/FGFA do it way better than rafale as FGFA/PAKFA are stealth 5th GEN while rafale is 4.5+ at max

so if we have to choose between the two IAF should go for the russian machiens and try to have mix of eastern & western origin wepons on it :coffee:

totally correct

rafale would have made sense if signed 3-4 years ago but delivery starting in 2017 mid is downright absurd

and u are paying 100 mill plus for that bird

1)with only 1 radar
2)lesser speed
3)way less range
4)very low supercruise
5)tiny aesa

yes spectra is good but not against modern aesa radars

The cost of buying and maintaining a 5th generation aircraft is significantly higher than a 4.5 gen. Just look at the cost of maintaining the F-22. A huge fleet of 5th gen fighters needs enormous resources. Better to have a mix of 5th and 4.5 gen fighters - helps fill up the numbers, while still giving you stealth capability to take out high value, highly defended targets.

i disagree completely
we are putting close to 18 billion in rafale too..the cost of infrastructure development will be huge

instead just focus on pakfa and tejas
 
.
The cost of buying and maintaining a 5th generation aircraft is significantly higher than a 4.5 gen. Just look at the cost of maintaining the F-22. A huge fleet of 5th gen fighters needs enormous resources. Better to have a mix of 5th and 4.5 gen fighters - helps fill up the numbers, while still giving you stealth capability to take out high value, highly defended targets.

rafale at 100+ million$s & wepons cost extra + @ 60000$s per flying hour is no where cheap....in that amount its same as FGFA if not more :azn:
 
.
The cost of buying and maintaining a 5th generation aircraft is significantly higher than a 4.5 gen. Just look at the cost of maintaining the F-22. A huge fleet of 5th gen fighters needs enormous resources. Better to have a mix of 5th and 4.5 gen fighters - helps fill up the numbers, while still giving you stealth capability to take out high value, highly defended targets.


we should have got something cheaper as 4.5 gen aircraft and just upgraded the sensors

The cost of buying and maintaining a 5th generation aircraft is significantly higher than a 4.5 gen. Just look at the cost of maintaining the F-22. A huge fleet of 5th gen fighters needs enormous resources. Better to have a mix of 5th and 4.5 gen fighters - helps fill up the numbers, while still giving you stealth capability to take out high value, highly defended targets.


we should have got something cheaper as 4.5 gen aircraft and just upgraded the sensors

now the biggest loser will be tejas as funds will be definitely short
and its safe to forget aura and amca alltogether
@Dillinger

i told u rafale deal was gonna be delayed

now they are saying march 2014
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Both aircraft's can't be compared one is 5th gen and other is 4.5, both have there own role in there respective fields, no air force in world can solely be dependent on one aircraft even if its 5th the generation

If we induct Pakfa are we going to dump sukhois and mirages and MIG 29 ?
 
.
[Bregs];4882320 said:
Both aircraft's can't be compared one is 5th gen and other is 4.5, both have there own role in there respective fields, no air force in world can solely be dependent on one aircraft even if its 5th the generation

If we induct Pakfa are we going to dump sukhois and mirages and MIG 29 ?

did i say that??

point is focus on tejas and pakfa for a while

induct 250 pakfa instead of 144 with initial 50 with 1 st stage engine

where am i wrong??

even stage one engine has double power than rafale one

and as already told rafale at 100 million makes no sense when u look at pakfa electronics,,,it butchers rafale
 
.
rafale at 100+ million$s & wepons cost extra + @ 60000$s per flying hour is no where cheap....in that amount its same as FGFA if not more :azn:
You are dreaming if you think the FGFA will be flying at 6000$ per hour. The F-22(the only 5th gen we have to compare) goes at $30k and even if the Russians can half the flying costs of the FGFA - its still at a brutal $15k.
Not to mention Russian machines need much more maintenance as compared to their western counterparts.
Maintaining a rafale is much cheaper than maintaing a pakfa.
 
.
did i say that??

point is focus on tejas and pakfa for a while

induct 250 pakfa instead of 144 with initial 50 with 1 st stage engine


where am i wrong??

even stage one engine has double power than rafale one

and as already told rafale at 100 million makes no sense when u look at pakfa electronics,,,it butchers rafale

MIG 21 is going to be replaced by Tejas at best, what about another fighter better then MIG 29, Mirages, Sukhois and PAK FA is still long way away say at lease 8-10 yrs
 
.
[Bregs];4882334 said:
MIG 21 is going to be replaced by Tejas at best, what about another fighter better then MIG 29, Mirages, Sukhois and PAK FA is still long way away say at lease 8-10 yrs

pakfa is gonna be produced in another 3 years max with stage 1 engine

rafale will start delivery in mid 2017 at best

u do the math
 
.
its hightime IAF should dum purchase of Rafale and of those 18 billion$s by 8 Billion$s worth LCAs +wepons & invest remaining 10 Billion $s for FGFA+wepons

i dont think even china will dare breach indian air space after that

Point defence =LCA @ 40 Million(200 for 8 billion $s) for Plane + wepons, ASEA radar & GE414 engine +israeli wepons

Air supremecy =FGFA @ 100 Million(100 for 10 billion$s)for plane & wepons extra

272 SU 30 MKI/super sukois for Air defence & bombing missions

MIG29 Upgrds X 60 for second line air defence & multi role

M2k Ugrds X 60 for multi role & bombing missions

150 Jags Ugrds for CAS & bombing roles

why then waste money on rafale
 
.
i disagree completely
we are putting close to 18 billion in rafale too..the cost of infrastructure development will be huge

instead just focus on pakfa and tejas

You are only considering the cost of induction - where they are similar. Russians make incredibly low priced planes compared to the west but they require much more maintenance - this is one of the reasons the IAF is shifting towards western machines.
Also 1 is 4.5 gen and the other is 5th gen. If you want to know how much maintenance a 5th gen plane needs - look at the F-22. 1 Hour flying means 30+ hours of maintenance and $30k.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom