Why not the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen?

[ejaz007]

I think there is no harm in waiting for a couple of years before deciding about new fighter. We should also wait till Indian MRCA is decided. In case India choose non Russian fighter then PAF has a strong case to go for a Russian fighter. The winds of change might start blowing after MRCA selection.

 

[su-47]

I think there is no harm in waiting for a couple of years before deciding about new fighter. We should also wait till Indian MRCA is decided. In case India choose non Russian fighter then PAF has a strong case to go for a Russian fighter. The winds of change might start blowing after MRCA selection.

not necessarily Ejaz. India still has close to $10bn in contract with the russians, including the $5bn 5th gen fighter project. so unless pak can offer something better, i dont see why russia would ditch india for pak.

 

[EagleEyes]

not necessarily Ejaz. India still has close to $10bn in contract with the russians, including the $5bn 5th gen fighter project. so unless pak can offer something better, i dont see why russia would ditch india for pak.

Why would Russia ditch India? Russia, as a major power has the ability to do defense related business with any country, while it does so with India. Unless of course Russia has no say.

 

[su-47]

Why would Russia ditch India? Russia, as a major power has the ability to do defense related business with any country, while it does so with India. Unless of course Russia has no say.

ok, maybe ditch was the wrong word. what i'm trying to say is that india is a major defence market for russia. if russia sells pakistan advanced weapons, it'll undermine india's security. therefore india will gradually shift to other suppliers. the russians will lose billions of dolloars in potential contracts, a gap which pakistan cannot fill.

the only time russia will supply advanced weapons to pakistan will be when india has truly moved away from russia. i dont see that happening in the near future.

 

[Neo]

Hi,

As we are getting the F 16's, it did not make any sense to go after the grippen anymore. I guess the developments in the design of the JF 17 came out more favourable than originally anticipated. Plus with the electronics package that maybe available for this fighter plus a more powerful engine in the future, could put it close to or the same class as the grippen if not superior.

My thinking is that the PAF studied the grippen real deep so that they could implement some of its technology mindset in the JF 17 thunder. Just think like this---you have a plane being manufactured and then you are looking somewhere else to buy another plane within the same design parameters. What does that tell you----possibly you just wanted some inside information into the design and operation of that aircraft. Pakistan got that information and now we have a technically superior JF 17 than the first and second sample. When the second batch of 50 JF 17's starts coming in, they will be as superior as the grippen for almost half the price. And this second batch should be on its way by 2010-2011. I don't think that grippen would be available to us by that time.

Based upon these premises, I realize and understand that all the news that comes out at a certain time is not all the news. There is more of it that is not being told. So the bottomline is that if we don't hear what we want to or what we like, doesnot mean that we need to take that interaction in a negative manner. We need to look at the relationship with other countries on a long term basis, keep a smile on our face, head held high, shoulders square and heals clicking. Don't let them see you sweat.

Sir,

You hit the nail on the head. There's a lot more than meets the eye, unfortunately only a few on this board have access to first hand information and we're not always at liberty to discuss it.

Based on the information I possess I can assure you that PAF's strategy and future outlook is looking brighter than ever, once we reveal full data on JF-17 Block I and II there will be no need to go for an expensive European 4.5 gen fighter. Block II itself will be close to 4.5 and we're transferring a lot of technology into FC-20 to make it a true 4.5 gen fighter aswell.

Again we're not at liberty at this time to discuss the details, hopefully JF-17 details will be revealed sometime by spring.

 

[Neo]

ok, maybe ditch was the wrong word. what i'm trying to say is that india is a major defence market for russia. if russia sells pakistan advanced weapons, it'll undermine india's security. therefore india will gradually shift to other suppliers. the russians will lose billions of dolloars in potential contracts, a gap which pakistan cannot fill.

the only time russia will supply advanced weapons to pakistan will be when india has truly moved away from russia. i dont see that happening in the near future.

Mate,

You really have to quite believing that you own Russia! India is already opening up to the west, the $1 billion C-130 contract to LM is just one of few we've seen sofar.

Russia no longer depends on FMS, there's a lot of money pouring into the country, she can afford to lose a few billions in India, the transformation is already in the process.
Russia's Indo-centric regional politics is mostly due to Putin's vision but he's leaving the office soon and Russian Think Tank is more pro-globalisation than ever before.

Pak-Russian ties are fragile but getting stronger by the day based on economic cooperation rather than military support. Pakistani banks recently opened two branches in Moscow to enhance trade and investments. Once trade volume expands Russia will open up in other fields, regardless what India thinks.
Welcome to Real Politik.

 

[su-47]

Mate,

You really have to quite believing that you own Russia! India is already opening up to the west, the $1 billion C-130 contract to LM is just one of few we've seen sofar.

Russia no longer depends on FMS, there's a lot of money pouring into the country, she can afford to lose a few billions in India, the transformation is already in the process.
Russia's Indo-centric regional politics is mostly due to Putin's vision but he's leaving the office soon and Russian Think Tank is more pro-globalisation than ever before.

Pak-Russian ties are fragile but getting stronger by the day based on economic cooperation rather than military support. Pakistani banks recently opened two branches in Moscow to enhance trade and investments. Once trade volume expands Russia will open up in other fields, regardless what India thinks.
Welcome to Real Politik.

Bro, i know that india doesnt own russia. i'm not a kid who lives in fantasy land.

ok, lets look at it from russia's point of view.
-India is an important customer. Pakistan is India's rival and is looking to be a customer.

-india is moving away from russia, but still promises to be a very lucrative customer. -

-Russia is not in dire need of money, but by choosing pakistan as a customer, russia loses india as a customer.

-pakistan cant offer the same amount of money as india. and there are no benefits for choosing pakistan as a customer.

now looking at the above facts, why would russia deal with pakistan. it is evident that the moment russia sells advanced technology to pak, india will take her business elsewhere. russia will be losing a major customer for a minor one. FOR WHAT?

I am not saying India will ALWAYS buy from russia. but until the day pakistan can offer more to russia than india, russia wont deal in advanced weapons with pak. and i dont see that day in the near future.

 

[Muradk]

Bro, i know that india doesnt own russia. i'm not a kid who lives in fantasy land.

ok, lets look at it from russia's point of view.
-India is an important customer. Pakistan is India's rival and is looking to be a customer.

-india is moving away from russia, but still promises to be a very lucrative customer. -

-Russia is not in dire need of money, but by choosing pakistan as a customer, russia loses india as a customer.

-pakistan cant offer the same amount of money as india. and there are no benefits for choosing pakistan as a customer.

now looking at the above facts, why would russia deal with pakistan. it is evident that the moment russia sells advanced technology to pak, india will take her business elsewhere. russia will be losing a major customer for a minor one. FOR WHAT?

I am not saying India will ALWAYS buy from russia. but until the day pakistan can offer more to russia than india, russia wont deal in advanced weapons with pak. and i dont see that day in the near future.

Advanced Weapons from Russia you ment Isreal.

 

[blain2]

Bro, i know that india doesnt own russia. i'm not a kid who lives in fantasy land.

ok, lets look at it from russia's point of view.
-India is an important customer. Pakistan is India's rival and is looking to be a customer.

-india is moving away from russia, but still promises to be a very lucrative customer. -

-Russia is not in dire need of money, but by choosing pakistan as a customer, russia loses india as a customer.

-pakistan cant offer the same amount of money as india. and there are no benefits for choosing pakistan as a customer.

now looking at the above facts, why would russia deal with pakistan. it is evident that the moment russia sells advanced technology to pak, india will take her business elsewhere. russia will be losing a major customer for a minor one. FOR WHAT?

I am not saying India will ALWAYS buy from russia. but until the day pakistan can offer more to russia than india, russia wont deal in advanced weapons with pak. and i dont see that day in the near future.

Sorry to say this but the above is an over-simplification of the issue. Russia like the rest of the west and US has to have multi-faceted relations with all of the countries in the world. India cannot dictate to Russia that it cannot sell to Pakistan based on geo-political compulsions that have existed in the past (US, Pakistan aligned against USSR/Russia and India).

Many others in the world sell to Pakistan just like they sell to India and Russia is noticing this trend. Secondly, as was the case in the past where Russia was the sole provider of military hardware to India and all of the Indian money or most of the loans extended by the Russians to India for military financing stayed with the Russians, this no longer remains the case.

If India can make a billion dollar purchase in France, Israel or the US, so can Pakistan in the same or lesser amount with Russians. The dealings in the future will be on economic basis, not on what the potential of a deal with India could be if a sale to Pakistan is withheld.

India has money but not enough to spend on US, European and Russian hardware simultaneously to keep Pakistan out of the Russian market. The Europeans and the US do not keep Pakistan out so not sure how long Russians will live with this self-imposed "Pakistan embargo" especially when sales to India will only dwindle in the future and not increase.

 

[ahussains]

Bro, i know that india doesnt own russia. i'm not a kid who lives in fantasy land.

ok, lets look at it from russia's point of view.
-India is an important customer. Pakistan is India's rival and is looking to be a customer.

-india is moving away from russia, but still promises to be a very lucrative customer. -

-Russia is not in dire need of money, but by choosing pakistan as a customer, russia loses india as a customer.

-pakistan cant offer the same amount of money as india. and there are no benefits for choosing pakistan as a customer.

If Russia comes to Pakistan this will opend the gates for the Middle East to Purchase the Military Equipment from Russia and they can easily offer the 5 times more amount to India , as we introduce China in to Middle East Market.

And honestly we always prefer to technolgy transfer and self reliance, we are not big bulky bayers of Scrape Russian products .

 

[Neo]

Bro, i know that india doesnt own russia. i'm not a kid who lives in fantasy land.

ok, lets look at it from russia's point of view.
-India is an important customer. Pakistan is India's rival and is looking to be a customer.

-india is moving away from russia, but still promises to be a very lucrative customer. -

-Russia is not in dire need of money, but by choosing pakistan as a customer, russia loses india as a customer.

-pakistan cant offer the same amount of money as india. and there are no benefits for choosing pakistan as a customer.

now looking at the above facts, why would russia deal with pakistan. it is evident that the moment russia sells advanced technology to pak, india will take her business elsewhere. russia will be losing a major customer for a minor one. FOR WHAT?

I am not saying India will ALWAYS buy from russia. but until the day pakistan can offer more to russia than india, russia wont deal in advanced weapons with pak. and i dont see that day in the near future.

You overestimate your economic or geo-political power, you need Russia more than Russia needs you!!

Its naive to believe that India will take her billions of $$$ to more expansive markets just to ratalliate on Russians for opening up to Pakistan. You will suffer more than you can imagine. Indian defense industry is built on Russian designs with Russian technology, it will take decates to adapt western technology into your current infrastructure.

How did you retalliate on the RD-93 delivery? India even finalised signed bigger deals (Pak-Fa) after the delivery of first RD-93 powered JF-17 to Pakistan.

Its just a matter of (short) time, better get used to the idea that Pakistan too has money to peneterate most of the global weapons markets.

 

[su-47]

Sorry to say this but the above is an over-simplification of the issue. Russia like the rest of the west and US has to have multi-faceted relations with all of the countries in the world. India cannot dictate to Russia that it cannot sell to Pakistan based on geo-political compulsions that have existed in the past (US, Pakistan aligned against USSR/Russia and India).

Many others in the world sell to Pakistan just like they sell to India and Russia is noticing this trend. Secondly, as was the case in the past where Russia was the sole provider of military hardware to India and all of the Indian money or most of the loans extended by the Russians to India for military financing stayed with the Russians, this no longer remains the case.

If India can make a billion dollar purchase in France, Israel or the US, so can Pakistan in the same or lesser amount with Russians. The dealings in the future will be on economic basis, not on what the potential of a deal with India could be if a sale to Pakistan is withheld.

I know that there are suppliers who sell to both India and pak. best example is france. Both nations accepted France as a supplier knowing well that France will sell to either.

But, you see, thats because france has a neutral relationship with either nation. the relationship between India and russia is much deeper than that. something like the sino-pak relations. relationships like that dont die overnight. if Russia supplies advanced technology to Pakistan, India will consider it base treachery.

Now about India moving away from russia, its because of Russian arms not meeting our technical requirements and also due to delays on the part of the Russians. But our move away from them is very gradual. its not like we are dumping them completely.

But if Russia starts supplying pakistan with the same stuff they supply us then our defence will be compromised and we will have to move away from them. and they know that.

Russia knows india is not going to keep them as suppliers forever. but as of right now, we are a major customer of theirs and they dont want to lose us.

India has money but not enough to spend on US, European and Russian hardware simultaneously to keep Pakistan out of the Russian market. The Europeans and the US do not keep Pakistan out so not sure how long Russians will live with this self-imposed "Pakistan embargo" especially when sales to India will only dwindle in the future and not increase.

India is buying more from Russia than ever before. In monetary terms purchases have actually increased. its in percentage terms that they have decreased.

 

[IceCold]

Now about India moving away from russia, its because of Russian arms not meeting our technical requirements and also due to delays on the part of the Russians.

SU how exactly are they are not meeting your(india's) technical requirements? I agree with the delay part, cost over runs, but the whole of indian war machine is built on the russian system and has fought wars and come this far. Take the example of the SU-30MK, its one of the best in the buisness, though india modified it but thats how it works, you dont get everything perfect, you need to put some changes on to it to suite your needs. T-90 is another example. So doesnt meeting the requirement is far fletched atleast for the time being.

 

[blain2]

I know that there are suppliers who sell to both India and pak. best example is france. Both nations accepted France as a supplier knowing well that France will sell to either.

But, you see, thats because france has a neutral relationship with either nation. the relationship between India and russia is much deeper than that. something like the sino-pak relations. relationships like that dont die overnight. if Russia supplies advanced technology to Pakistan, India will consider it base treachery.

Don't really see it as that. Pakistani interests continue to converge with those of China thus the trust and relationship stays stable...I do not see the same on the Indo-Russian side. With India casting her lot with the US, things are bound to diverge in terms of interests in the region and globally.

 

[araz]

My question and as a matter of fact a long standing querry in my mind is what is so different about Gripen that makes it a better plane than Thunder. If you look at the figures both planes are virtually alike in specs, and the new developments will make the thunder even more closer in capabilities than before. So what additional benefit would we have gotten out of gripen that we cant get out of the thunder?