why not Come under US-Nuclear Umbrella ?

[rockstar08]

If USA threatens nuclear holocaust on us, then why would we not 'dare' to use it. My point wan't about this anyway. It was about about 'deterrence'. USA wouldn't want to add another country to the list of countries that may nook it in case of a war (Russia/CHINA/NK).

Nuclear umbrella provided to the NATO countries like Canada/Germany/Turkey and non-NATO Japan in the Soviet era; was to prevent these countries from themselves going nuclear. While this is a point in your favor, do note that these nations are staunch allies of the US and have no independent foreign policy. Pakistan OTOH is China's 'ally'. With growing Chinese power, due to the unchangeable geography and a deep history of American unreliability this position will only get further cemented. Do you think Pakistan will sacrifice all its strategic alliance, its all weather friendship, independent nuclear policy (i.e threatening India over and over again) for an unreliable and distant Amreeka? I think this would be very foolhardy for Pakistan.

As for getting conventional weapons, BLEASE, you don't have conventional weapons bcoz you don't have the $$$$. After WOT everything was available, only $$$$ was missing.

you know you are ignorant .. or just unable to understand my point ...
US N weapons will be stationed in Pak to defend us from any misadventure from India ( if nukes involved ) ..
Germany has US nukes but Germany wont go out in world threatning other countries to attack them by using US nukes or did they ?
look at japan , did Japan make aggressive moves towards China on the bases of US nukes ?? so why would US will threat you with Nuclear holocaust ?? it will be just a safety precaution

 

[dray]

Both OP and your post has a bad smell of raja mentality.

yes. yes. The same $tupid rajas

The big raja and the smaller rajaa, who fought each other until both were eaten by foreign hoards.

Sadly.


p.s. you can also use two monkey analogy. but I digress.

I suggested dosti mentality in the first page, but got a saas-bahu mentality reply.

 

[rockstar08]

Iran is the ally the US would love to have in the middle east. It is perfect for them as it borders Russia, The Shi'te crescent and also provides leverage against the GCC if they decide to grow some back against the US.

Pakistan's importance is only as a Buffer to keep India away from religious extremism(now irrelevant due to the information technology highway known as the internet) and to provide overflight for any piecemeal future operations against Iran if needed.
The only possible importance in terms of Pakistan are its nuclear weapons.. take those away.. and the US could care less if Pakistanis butcher each other in the streets(which is where we are likely headed).

And your memory and knowledge is a little off. Zia was NOT the ruler in the 1960s. It was Ayub Khan, who at the time was also eager to ally with India against China in order to appease the US in solving the tensions between the two whilst finding another enemy by which the national focus could be changed. Thanks to the Chinese who had a short memory then, we now have the "oceans and mountains" friendship with them.

why are you forgetting the Israel factor ? US will not bargain anything unless Iran drop their Nuclear program ... for now KSA , Bahrain , Qatar , Kuwait , Egypt are enjoying been ally with US ,

and if you think that Pakistan will lost his importance as its nukes are gone , that are you accepting the fact that whatever mess we are facing today in pak is because of the nukes ??

and sorry for bad memory

 

[SrNair]

US can invade any country man..no doubt on that ... but unlike UK and other EU country why we should decrease our Conventional Power ? i mentioned in OP that we should get more Conventional weapons , and CM's can strike any possible target deep in India .. our one and only enemy ...
look at turkey , they dont have nukes but their Conventional Army can give a nightmare to Indians , their Airforce , Armed forces , only their navy is weak ..
same goes with Japan , and Germany , you think indians can beat Japans ?or germans ??
the only upper hand Indian will have is to threat with nukes , but again threatening is different from using ..no existing country has balls to use nukes on other country and get along with consequences , other than USA

Turkey can challeenge us conventionally? .I dont think so.
Japan have a better AF and Navy than us same goes to Germany.But we are undergoing a modernization drive.

 

[rockstar08]

Turkey can challeenge us conventionally? .I dont think so.
Japan have a better AF and Navy than us same goes to Germany.But we are undergoing a modernization drive.

they can ... if you put nukes away ..
their AF is equal if not more powerful than you ....

 

[SrNair]

that's what concern me too .............!

That is not just a concern ,but cent percent guaranteed fact.
Look at the US how they treat Germany by snooping her Chancellors phone.
And there was a news where US mocked Japan leader in a meeting.

 

[SrNair]

exactly my point is Oscar , today or even in a decade our one and only enemy will remain india ... and if we had more conventinoal weapons we can easily sustain a war with india , right now all we can do is to threat india with a possible nuclear reaction but you and i both know that those are only empty threats ...

yes you are right , japan and S.korea is there to keep China , Russia and N.korea in check .. but look at their military might and economy ...
why you think Iran is major focus for US ?? is it not because of Nukes ?? why we were in Focus for rest of the world after 1999 ??
what we have face , iran will face same if they get nukes , and they already set up the plot ( ISIS ) ..
Pakistan importance will remain high in the region , we can be gateway for Arab world and south Asia ...
and Sooner or later US will keep check on indians as well ..

Ah yeah i remember that it was the time of Zia ...

Why should they check us in future?

 

[rockstar08]

That is not just a concern ,but cent percent guaranteed fact.
Look at the US how they treat Germany by snooping her Chancellors phone.
And there was a news where US mocked Japan leader in a meeting.

we are not japan and Germany still they treat us worse than that

 

[rockstar08]

Why should they check us in future?

relax dont be panic
US has habit to watch over every country in the world

 

[Donatello]

US can invade any country man..no doubt on that ... but unlike UK and other EU country why we should decrease our Conventional Power ? i mentioned in OP that we should get more Conventional weapons , and CM's can strike any possible target deep in India .. our one and only enemy ...
look at turkey , they dont have nukes but their Conventional Army can give a nightmare to Indians , their Airforce , Armed forces , only their navy is weak ..
same goes with Japan , and Germany , you think indians can beat Japans ?or germans ??
the only upper hand Indian will have is to threat with nukes , but again threatening is different from using ..no existing country has balls to use nukes on other country and get along with consequences , other than USA

You are imagining a scenario similar to EU........like i've said before, unless India and Pakistan have high social development and they realize that their mutual existence is for the benefit of all, you'll keep seeing nukes in the present region. In EU, the nations realized that they have more to gain to work together than to fight each other or pretend to fight each other.

Barely 25 years had passed since the deadliest war (World War II), that Britain, France, Spain, Germany came up with a common industrial goal : Airbus.
And look at the economic and social good that project has brought them. Even though, Germany was responsible for millions of dead French/British men, so France and Britain, in theory should always be wary of Germany. (after all, Germany was in one way or the other, responsible for the only two world wars.)

Now you tell me, are India and Pakistan in that situation? Nope. Not anytime soon.

If Pakistan gives up nukes, and India gives up nukes, Pakistan will always assume that India will overrun Pakistan at will (since it is assumed that Pakistan's nukes offer a balancing effect to the rather unbalance military balance in South Asia)........unless, India is so closely knit with Pakistan for it's own economic good, that Pakistan will be assured that India going to war with it's own investment in Pakistan, is practically very stupid and will end up damaging itself.

 

[Judge]

What was wrong in 1971 war ,why America and the so called {civilised} world did not hel to save pakistan as in member country.

They did.
They are the sole reason India did not attack West Pakistan. They threatened us and Soviet's.

Talk about being ungrateful.

 

[rockstar08]

You are imagining a scenario similar to EU........like i've said before, unless India and Pakistan have high social development and they realize that their mutual existence is for the benefit of all, you'll keep seeing nukes in the present region. In EU, the nations realized that they have more to gain to work together than to fight each other or pretend to fight each other.

Barely 25 years had passed since the deadliest war (World War II), that Britain, France, Spain, Germany came up with a common industrial goal : Airbus.
And look at the economic and social good that project has brought them. Even though, Germany was responsible for millions of dead French/British men, so France and Britain, in theory should always be wary of Germany. (after all, Germany was in one way or the other, responsible for the only two world wars.)

Now you tell me, are India and Pakistan in that situation? Nope. Not anytime soon.

If Pakistan gives up nukes, and India gives up nukes, Pakistan will always assume that India will overrun Pakistan at will (since it is assumed that Pakistan's nukes offer a balancing effect to the rather unbalance military balance in South Asia)........unless, India is so closely knit with Pakistan for it's own economic good, that Pakistan will be assured that India going to war with it's own investment in Pakistan, is practically very stupid and will end up damaging itself.

i am not imagining the EU situation yaar .. and yeah i agree with you that its no where near the situation of South asia ...
but why on the first place India will give up their nukes ?? they are dreaming to be a Supa powa ... we are not ...
dont you think we can hold up IA with more powerful Conventional Army , Airforce and Navy ??
even in 2002 and 2008 stand off , if the war break out , it will no more than a 2-3 days misadventure from both sides , before things got out of hands world powers will intervene and war is over , by US presence in Pak along with Their Nukes can put a forever full stop on india trying to invade Pak

 

[Jf Thunder]

yes and waste the lives and intellect of many brilliant scientists, many of whom got caught and were tortured with God knows what, give up our pride, and give up our day the "Yaum E Takbeer"

 

[Donatello]

i am not imagining the EU situation yaar .. and yeah i agree with you that its no where near the situation of South asia ...
but why on the first place India will give up their nukes ?? they are dreaming to be a Supa powa ... we are not ...
dont you think we can hold up IA with more powerful Conventional Army , Airforce and Navy ??
even in 2002 and 2008 stand off , if the war break out , it will no more than a 2-3 days misadventure from both sides , before things got out of hands world powers will intervene and war is over , by US presence in Pak along with Their Nukes can put a forever full stop on india trying to invade Pak

The USA only intervenes knowing the suicidal tendency of Pakistani nukes. If nukes are not there, they won't give a damn.
And building a conventional superiority to India would require at least 10-20 times more resources than building nukes.

A single nuke can kill millions. Do you know how much conventional ammunition you need to do the same level of killings?

 

[Judge]

Japan is there to keep China in check, North Korea in check. and Russia in Check.. Germany provides a hired force for the US's actions... what does Pakistan do once it kills all the terrorists for the US?

Pakistan can also provide a hired force for US actions. What is to say the same German model cannot be followed by PA ?

Pakistan can also add a pressure front against China - before you start on Pakistan loves China, know that a society can be made to hate or love another country in less than a decade of focused effort and propaganda.