What's new

Why India Wants France's Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet: They Can Carry Nuclear Weapons

Spectre

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
46
Country
India
Location
India
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ances-dassault-rafale-fighter-jets-they-17777

India is on the verge of signing a deal with France for 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets, likely when French defense minister Jean-Yves le Drian arrives in New Delhi later this week.

The jets may end up lugging nuclear bombs, as officials told The Indian Express this month that the jets are “to be used as an airborne strategic delivery system.”

That’s a polite way of saying India’s jets could drop nukes — one mission which Dassault specifically designed the multi-role Rafale to do. There’s also precedent here, as France previously sold and supplied spare parts for India’s Mirage 2000s, which are the most important delivery platform for New Delhi’s nuclear weapons.

“We expect the same degree of cooperation from France when we modify and use the Rafales for that role,” a second military official told the Express.

But if you’re from Pakistan or China and you’re worried — don’t sweat. Thirty-six Rafales are not enough to give India an advantage over its nuclear-armed neighbors. India’s upcoming ballistic missiles pack significantly greater range and are far more difficult to stop.

***

When India detonated five nuclear bombs in two days in 1998, the South Asian power emerged as a fully-declared nuclear armed state. A few weeks later, Pakistan blew up five nukes at an underground testing site.

The United States imposed sanctions on both countries, but France didn’t.

India weaponizing its nukes proved to be a different story, largely owing to extreme secrecy and compartmentalization within the government and military. Since the Indian Air Force barely knew the specifications of the country’s nukes, it could hardly design appropriate delivery systems.

India had no experience mating nuclear warheads to ballistic missiles, and its launchers in the 1990s were either too slow to fire — veritable suicide during a nuclear war — or too unreliable to depend upon.

This left India’s 1970s-era Mirage 2000s to take on much of the job. But the warheads were an awkward fit, and only highly skilled pilots could take off with the cumbersome payloads attached underneath their planes’ bellies — making the jets aerodynamically tricky to fly.

Nor did Dassault initially design the Mirage 2000 with nuclear weapons in mind. As a result, the Indian Air Force feared its planes’ fly-by-wire systems could be knocked out by the electromagnetic pulses from the detonating bombs.

“In the early 1990s, the air force was thinking of one-way missions,” a senior Indian Air Force officer told the Atlantic Council’s Guarav Kampani writing in International Security. t was unlikely that the pilot deployed on a nuclear attack mission would have made it back.”

“The modification of aircraft for safe and reliable delivery of a nuclear weapon turned out to be a huge technical and managerial challenge that consumed the [state-owned Defense Research and Development Organization’s] attention for six years and perhaps more,” Kampani wrote.

“There was a major problem integrating the nuclear weapon with the Mirage.”

India has come a long way since. It has upgraded its Mirages, possesses up to 120 nuclear warheads, has completed its first ballistic missile submarine and has three different (and more modern) kinds of Agni ballistic missile launchers already deployed, with longer-range iterations on the way.

But the submarine Arihant is more of a test-bed than a credible weapon system. India’s land-based launchers lack rigorous testing regimens and still suffer fromreliability issues. The most advanced operational launcher, the Agni-3, numbers fewer than 10 in service, according to the Federation of American Scientists.

Most Indian launchers are older Prithvis, which are short range and slow to prepare. New Delhi does not possess MIRVs — devastating clusters of nuclear warheads which ride together aboard a single missile, break apart and rain down on their targets. Nor is it likely that India has the will or expertise to develop them.

“Despite India’s considerable progress in developing credible ballistic missiles, its fighter-bombers still constitute the backbone of India’s operational nuclear strike force,” FAS analysts Hans Kristensen and Robert Norris wrote in a 2015 review.

India also possesses dozens of 1960s-era Jaguar attack jets — developed by France and Britain — which serves in a secondary nuclear attack role.

But you can see why India prefers aircraft. They’re technologically simple compared to missiles, can be recalled and are highly visible to an adversary, creating a deterrent effect. That’s good for keeping the peace, but during a war, they’re more easily spotted and shot down.

And the same is true for the canard delta wing Rafale. To be sure, the plane has a longer range, a lot more thrust and a greater payload capacity than the older Mirage 2000.

So the planes — specifically designed with nuclear weapons in mind — will give India a modestly more effective strike force than the aging one it has now.


But regardless, India will only buy … 36 Rafales. That’s just two squadrons, and far below the 126 fighters planned several years ago. (That deal collapsed.) So the nuclear competition with Pakistan won’t change because of the jets.

What would change it? Commissioning more ballistic missile submarines, building longer-ranged missile launchers and ramping up production of fissile material which could produce more and more powerful bombs … all of which India is doing.
 
.
.
@MilSpec spec @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @randomradio

Interesting article.
As per OP chief incentive is the strategic role and not the numbers deficiency.

Wonder if it points towards the fact that Rafales will be restricted to such a role and other cheaper alternatives will fill up the numbers

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/why-indi...n-carry-nuclear-weapons.450603/#ixzz4Ktxl6NOS

36 air frames should equal to two squadrons. One based near Pakistan border and the other near China, presuming they are being used strictly as nuclear weapons delivery platforms. Still India needs a major influx of aircraft to replace its existing fleet.
 
.
Looks like a stupid article to me. Rafale capable of Nuclear delivery is not exactly world secret. Secondly there is no way an foreign institute with zero intelligence capabilities can estimate the number of missiles we have, even if they get the no of motors produced from the factories. There are ways to conceal them. Prithvi's are dismantled during the time we speak, replaced with solid fueled missiles.
 
.
.
@MilSpec spec @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @randomradio

Interesting article.
As per OP chief incentive is the strategic role and not the numbers deficiency.

Wonder if it points towards the fact that Rafales will be restricted to such a role and other cheaper alternatives will fill up the numbers

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/why-indi...n-carry-nuclear-weapons.450603/#ixzz4Ktxl6NOS
I don't think nuclear weapons is the reason that's why India buying Rafael bcoz already we have mirage 2000 who can carry
& soon su-30 will get bramhos-m then it Will get the capable of nuclear strike
 
.
@MilSpec spec @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @randomradio

Interesting article.
As per OP chief incentive is the strategic role and not the numbers deficiency.

Wonder if it points towards the fact that Rafales will be restricted to such a role and other cheaper alternatives will fill up the numbers

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/why-indi...n-carry-nuclear-weapons.450603/#ixzz4Ktxl6NOS


These are only speculations.

Author of said article states that a Jaguar or Mirage-2000 flying with a nuclear bomb would have high visibility and would be shot down, but so would be a Rafale.

Rafale may be a highly maneuverable plane, but with a 3Tonne+ nuke attached, it would have aerodynamics of a brick.

Rafale may be a low observable plane, but with a nuke attacked, it would have elephantine RCS that would be visible on any radar that would bother looking its way.

Rafale would be as easy to detect and shot down as a Jaguar or Mirage-2000 while carrying Nuke, because of weight and size of Nukes.

Thus buying Rafales only for delivering nukes does not make proper sense. They would be best utilized in Air-to-Air and conventional Air-to-Ground campaign.

And this tranche of 36 is only start. The biggest proof that there would be further orders is that India has not ordered any Mig-29Ks for IAC-1. If Mig-29Ks are not ordered and LCA mk2 is nowhere to be seen, only Rafales (or F-35B) could fly from IAC-1.
 
Last edited:
.
Rafales are for SEAD missions
if equipped with meteor missiles they will be great for air to air engagements
 
.
@MilSpec spec @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @randomradio

Interesting article.
As per OP chief incentive is the strategic role and not the numbers deficiency.

Wonder if it points towards the fact that Rafales will be restricted to such a role and other cheaper alternatives will fill up the numbers

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/why-indi...n-carry-nuclear-weapons.450603/#ixzz4Ktxl6NOS

5% rule my friend ..
The entire portfolio must contain 5% of aircrafts from the fleet pick and chosen for multiple approaches to deliver the package safely.

As of today it's 32 mirages, 16 jags and 2 upgraded MKI. The former two acts as primary bomb carriers in a low altitude ingress mode but with time and pertaining to increased surveillance plus much more complicated AD scenario, their relevancy and effect has decreased.

With 48 fighters of mirages and Jags, it was assumed that with 75% availability 36 will be there and extrapolating this number the fleet should be anything around 720 birds and above. This is muh lesser than many other countries where its reaching almost 15% kind of numbers but of course it's also tangible to understand Major like USA and Russia maintains a much larger stockpile and aerial bombs is much lower in their strategic importance aspect.

Now the future would see specific 42 improved MKI with this capability and 36 Rafale making the fleet reach 78 numbers.T he assumption is 66% MKI at 28 birds and 90% contracted at 32 jets or a total of 60 jets or 1200 fighter fleet. Even at 75% for Rafale it's still 27 so total is 55jets or 1100 fleet size or 55 squadrons.

Thus this is the strongest hint that over the life of this formation India will move towards a fleet of at least 55-60 squadrons comprising of fighters and UCAVs/UAVs. This is inline with earlier assessment if requiring such numbers for a 2front war.

About numbers to make this up, again question is what should make it up. Well, will India trust USA which even now is doing nothing more than mere lip service or will it trust France and Russia. I now feel strongly we will get i guess 5 squadrons of PAKFA stage 1 between 2021-26 with Rafales only instead of may be LWFs like F16 or Gripen. May be bcz it's better to trust those ho back u up even if it's costly for any reason over folks whose interest is only to raise China bogey and scare them first and sell them American weapons but in reality all through years it's lip service. As far as I know IAF upper echelon does nt want F16. It might accept Gripen E as LCA Mk2 or another indigenous concept if it's at par with Gripen E but both without American engines or at a later stage with Indian engines. Tge only hitch is Gripen E is still costly and sub systems dependency is an issue. I knw that Saab guys are suggesting a very deep customization with massive changes and replacement with French and israeli sub systems but major parts - well they still don't have a clearance if they can share it with India or not.

So that's the major issue. The alternatives are not low cost actually and India won't reward anyone who does nt in a way match their geo political interests.
 
.
. I now feel strongly we will get i guess 5 squadrons of PAKFA stage 1 between 2021-26 with Rafales only instead of may be LWFs like F16 or Gripen.

That seems to be the missing link.To plug the gap in our falling nos post the retirement of MIG 21's beginning in a few years.A few questions .What are the specifications of PAKFA - Stage 1 , it's role & it's efficacy ?
I ask for PAKFA & it's derivative FGFA are for air dominance , if I'm not mistaken .Why not plug the gap by churning out more Su 30 MKI ? We already are manufacting these.They fulfill the same function as the PAKFA .More or less.
 
. .
These are only speculations.

Author of said article states that a Jaguar or Mirage-2000 flying with a nuclear bomb would have high visibility and would be shot down, but so would be a Rafale.

Rafale may be a highly maneuverable plane, but with a 3Tonne+ nuke attached, it would have aerodynamics of a brick.

Rafale may be a low observable plane, but with a nuke attacked, it would have elephantine RCS that would be visible on any radar that would bother looking its way.

Rafale would be as easy to detect and shot down as a Jaguar or Mirage-2000 while carrying Nuke, because of weight and size of Nukes.

Thus buying Rafales only for delivering nukes does not make proper sense. They would be best utilized in Air-to-Air and conventional Air-to-Ground campaign.

And this tranche of 36 is only start. The biggest proof that there would be further orders is that India has not ordered any Mig-29Ks for IAC-1. If Mig-29Ks are not ordered and LCA mk2 is nowhere to be seen, only Rafales (or F-35B) could fly from IAC-1.

It seems that when they say Rafale will carry nukes, you are assuming we will attach this to the Raffy's belly -

ShaktiBomb566c20.jpg


No. That's not how it's done. Air launched free-fall nukes are always packed in an aerodynamic container, but that's not the only way. You can always utilize future ALCMs like BrahMos-NG, Nirbhay etc. for nuclear delivery.

Still, Rafale would be the most capable & survivable platform in IAF (atleast until FGFA arrives) - and it makes sense to use your best platform for strategic purposes. No matter how much the RCS increase can be, it will still be much lower than the same nuke carried by a Su-30MKI, Mirage or Jaguar.
 
.

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom