Why i'm not afraid of General Raheel's popularity graph.

[Viper0011.]

Well Nawaz Shariff has a history of not having good working realtions and picking rivaliries..

Doesn't matter. He is the ELECTED PM. He can sack anyone he wants to. When you ask an American TOP general, whether they personally dislikes Obama or not, you know what they'll say?: "I serve at the pleasure of the American president". He says go,I'll salute and go!!

Simple is that. And don't tell me "American is different than Pakistan". NO!!! The generals need to understand that they'll be tried for treason if they eff-up the system. Because that means, you've ruined the country's future for about next 10 years average. Period. No one should have the power to destroy 200 million people's future.

Constitution is the Constitution, you can't modify it, break it or eff with it because you have another perception of power. Everything works when everyone follows their chapter within the Constitution. And the PM has the right to sack, bring or relieve an Army Chief. Its hard to swallow for people in Pakistan, as they're used to seeing a general also as a President. But they are ALSO used to seeing a country begging for loans, no power, no jobs and all.

Take these generals out, put qualified civilians like right now and the equation changes. Learn to follow the system and the system will take the nation to the top 15th economy in the world. Don't follow the system, economy goes down, military goes in the dark without funding and everything goes down. Its that simple.

This is why I wish there were more General Raheel's. The country would've been way ahead of its current status.

Hi,

The problem that Mushy had was that he really knew how weak Pakistan military was after the sanction---and yes---he could not make the proverbial ' car deal '---he had the U S by the balljoints----. Generals should never make car deals. You did not answer the core question.

Car deals is what the US is used to as these happen in a democratic manner (car deal sounds cheap though). Civilians in suits, with polite low voice and be able to communicate and discuss things, and for a country who's media image is soft (unlike that Brooklyn show by IK that destroyed the newly built softer image of Pakistan due to NASDAQ's recent event).

Combine all these things, you can do any deal with the US. Outside of it, if a general comes in, the US knows that he is a brute force guy, and in our democratic system, he's not liked and has a "Temporary" age to him. And that later becomes history.

Softer media image, nice people, no violence, soft talk, discussions and mutual agreement is how business and deals are done. Pakistan and Pakistanis need to learn it and see how India did it too.

Its in my name 0011. Is that what you were asking for?

how do you get ANY of that from this conversation? I haven't made ANY reference to any of those areas. I am glad to give you my opinion on those if you like but that will likely start a major diversion which doesn't help this thread. Let's do that another day when I my bottle is half full.

You ignored factuals about Indian involvement from my post and called it "standard customary stuff". So since you ignored it like its nothing, I thought the humanity kicked in so the Pakistani side isn't doing anything either as you are discounting your side's involvement. So what's the ruff about? Everyone can be happy!!! Yes to World Peace!!!!! Brokered by Viper at pdf

 

[Reverse Thinker]

General Raheel Sharif is Best Ever General & especially during the ERA of so called democracies of corrupt leaders now He should go one step foward and strictally ask Nawaz shreef to start Kalla Bagh Dam construction as biggest enemy of pakistan, political parties like MQM & ANP on the ground struggling and people of pakistan they rejected them badly and even in next elections PPP will also no more be in sindh, this is best time to contruct it otherwise in future this dam nobody will construct it as its going more costly day by day and less attention for politicians as they are calling it dead issue. This dam also will help bosting our economy from two fronts one by saving people & crops damage from flood and providing more facility to save flood water, producing electricity and more water for crops.

 

[Caprxl]

Whatever & how many arguments you people bring , the reality is NS has a fake cent of share in having any say or part in matters of State what to do or what not to do. Rather NS telling GRS is a joke, just ask a random taxi driver or a shopkeeper in Pakistan who is the boss & tell them this NS dictating GRS joke & see what moron you make of youself. I will wait few months & when this Operation starts to grab PMLN then we will see who dictates who.
So please leave this bull**** drama of NS running & telling GRS what or what not to do. As far as being elected (also another joke, but for the sake of argument we accept it) PM & sacking COAS, well go ahead who is stopping him, he sure has the authority.
Having said all that, I support the government n GRS & against any visible coup as it & would love to see justice served hot n fresh to all those accused n proved with Corruption Terrorism & Economic Terrorism irrespective of which political party he/she belongs to or Leads.

 

[Caprxl]

Just in case

 

[yesboss]

Very well written, it must be admitted that the current civil-military cooperation is exactly what was required in this time of crisis and that's why Pakistan is recovering at a pretty good pace (al-hamdullilah), and if every thing is getting better why crave for change or create suspicions within institutions or personalities. It has been happening for quite a while now, media cells and several politician have been trying there level best to disintegrate or weaken the civil-military relation for either personal gains or whatever diabolic reasons. Raheel Sharif would be remembered for his role he played to put Pakistan back on track when every thing seemed to be slipping away. He made no mistakes when it came to national security, he played an active role, kept army away from politics and focused only on matters related to internal/external security threats.
NS is neither a leader nor has a charismatic personality rather he is a passive and a very balanced/mature person. He listens to the people around him keeps in mind the public opinion and likes to make popular decisions. Where ever NS was wrong he was sensible/mature enough to realize and follow (or in other words he had no choice), he made himself focus on the economy and other governance issues and backed army on all issues related to national security. Expect no miracles, things change slowly with time, we need stability which can only be assured if there is a good working relationship between civil govt and the military. I hope it continues because there is no magic wand to fix our problems within a few years.

 

[Rahil khan]

Absolutely, if the system continues. And that's all you need to transform Pakistan into an advanced country with soon to be a much faster growing economy.

Do you really think Viper that this system with such horrible lope holes is gonna continue? Let's suppose after 2017 or 2018 Pakistan Peoples Party of PTI takes charge in Islamabad...don't you think Sir that they are gonna reverse all those developmental projects just because of the fear of losing popularity points.... Result....back to the drawing board with the possible outcome of new progress and developmental theories waiting to be smashed by the political rivals desperate to seize power ....!! Same vicious circle again and again...! I still don't think our political mindsets are that mature enough to keep our national interests on top of priority list items....! Ii still have some strong reservations of Nawaz government's ability to even complete a single tenure....highly doubtful...!

 

[yesboss]

@Viper0011.

Actually Mushy was sabotaged by India successfully. It all comes down to Pakistanis as to how they handled the aftermath of 9/11.

The media created a frenzy and the Pakistanis got lost in who did 9/11 rather than protect their 12 and 6.

Pakistanis are of a mindset that if you don't slap the hard for a couple of time---they don't think that you are serious----. So---the Pakistanis basically wanted Mushy to say no---U S to slap them a couple of times and then they would say yes----not realizing that the U S was not in a mood to slap but in a mood to smash.

A good nation would have stood behind Mushy.

What the military did not comprehend was that India would not accept this change in status quo---they will create a drama to divert the attention---so they staged the parliament attack---brought their troops to the frontline---and the Pakistani commitment to war against terror faltered right away.

And for this---the blame falls on the Pakistani media and the Pakistani citizens.

Hey Viper---what group of alphabets you use with your name!

Sir i understand and agree on what you said about 9/11 and WOT. But i don't understand your praise for Musharraf and on the other hand side declare Gen.kayani a traitor. Did the terrorists/Taliban's network in FATA(tribal areas) and all over Pakistan came into existence within a day when Musharraf got off his throne, or it was always there but he didn't care how many thousands of Pakistani citizens die, until he holds the seat he was okay with them, never felt the need for an operation such as happening right now. OR the day he got of his throne all of a sudden MQM came into power and made Karachi a heavens for bhatahors, target killers and terrorists. Or the day he got off his seat Pakistan suddenly found itself in a severe energy crises.
The thing is he was only able to rule because Pakistan came out of severe sanctions after 9/11 which was a big relief for us and not only that but massive civilian and military aids came along which helped our economy grow. He had all the LOTAS's in his pockets from MQM,JUI-F to chauhdary bradran's, he let them loot or do whatever they want if he just gets to be in power. He did zilch for the energy sector, built no dams or any power plants, or improve the infrastructure for distribution of electricity, for which we are still suffering. Other than the local body elections (which is somehow a necessity for a dictator to be in power) he never did anything which was of utmost importance, and the cherry on top we got PPP in power in the next elections. He fought Kargil when a civilian govt wanted to negotiate with India and when came to power he realized that negotiations was the only way. It was like, if his sole purpose was to weaken Pakistan . . . . or he was just a plain idiot who got to rule.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Doesn't matter. He is the ELECTED PM. He can sack anyone he wants to. When you ask an American TOP general, whether they personally dislike Obama or not, you know what they'll say "I serve at the pleasure of the American president". He says go,I'll salute and go!! Simple is that. And don't tell me "American is different than Pakistan". NO!!! The generals need to understand that they'll be tried for treason if they eff up the system. Because that means, you've ruined the country's future for about next 10 years average. Period. No one should have the power to destroy 200 million people's future.

Constitution is the constitution, you can't modify it, break it or eff with it because you have another perception of power. Everything works when everyone follows their chapter within the constitution. And the PM has the right to sack, bring or relieve an Army Chief. Its hard to swallow for people as they're used to seeing a general as a President. But they are ALSO used to seeing a country begging for loans. Take the generals out, put qualified civilians like right now and the equation changes. Learn to follow the system and the system will take the nation to the top 15th economy in the world. Don't follow the system, economy goes down, military goes in the dark without funding and everything goes down. Its that simple.
This is why I wish there were more General Raheel's. The country would've been way ahead of its current status.



Car deals is what the US is used to (car deal sounds cheap though). Civilians in suits, with polite low voice and be able to communicate and discuss things, and for a country who's media image is soft (unlike that Brooklyn show by IK that destroyed the newly built softer image of Pakistan due to NASDAQ's recent event). Combine all these things, you can do any deal with the US. Outside of it, if a general comes in, the US knows this is brute force talking and in our democratic system, he's not liked and has a "Temporary" age to him. And that later becomes history.

Softer media image, nice people, no violence, soft talk, discussions and mutual agreement is how business and deals are done. Pakistan and Pakistanis need to learn it and see how India did it too.

Its in my name 0011. Is that what you were asking for?



You ignored factual about Indian involvement from my post and called it "standard customary stuff". So since you ignored it like its nothing, I thought the humanity kicked in so the Pakistani side isn't doing anything either as you are discounting your side's involvement. So what's the ruff about? Everyone can be happy!!! Yes to World Peace!!!!! Brokered by Viper at pdf

For US not liking military generals the ground reality is different. US has been dealing, if not encouraging, dictators most of the Middle East, Pakistan, North Africa. US likes the Generals when they do not argue or are straight forward. So now is this the new requirement? The change comes from within and imposing ones ideas by force is not suitable. If that region has to become stable the change has to come from within. So far the constitution is not working. It needs to be amended.
Now going back to your idea of PM can sack anybody. First of all managing people is not always about sacking people. One sacks people who are not doing their job or stepping out of the boundaries. It was PM who was not able to work with 2 presidents. Did not follow the Chief Justice of Supreme court orders. But you only bring up Generals. I think in recent years Generals have ticked off more than they were expected to.
Management is to adopt a course of action that works. Not starting confrontations in a country which has been traditionally dominated by military. One uses tact and intelligence, which Nawaz Shariff lacks clearly.
I will never respect the person as PM who is the second biggest money launderer in the country because he cannot deliver what is required. If it was not for IMF loans and begged grants, the Pakistani people would have evolved to their most suitable system of democracy. While West is trying to look out for the people of Pakistan but inadvertently helped the corrupt politicians. USA evolved after real revolution or from British point of view mutiny and revolt. That bloody revolution changed into the most successful democratic country in time. This happened because it was by the people, for the people. Not dictated by IMF or Generals. As long as there is corruption nothing is going to change.
When Pakistan had soft coups everybody was happy to get rid of Nawaz or Benazir, but corrupt politicians were forced again in the name of democracy. This doctored democracy will not work unless Pakistan gets honest educated leaders (not from military mind you).
But you suggest, like everybody who is somebody, the democracy as you know and not as it would have evolved and worked in Pakistan, had not been there interference by military and West.
Bhutto by starting Nationalization and trying to follow socialist system in 70s, took actions so abruptly that to this day Pakistan has not recovered from the idea of people working in state owned institution and not producing as they would have in private sector. (Banks, Mills, Insurance Companies, Shipping Companies, Colleges, Schools just to name a few.) While Pakistan should be thankful for the support by US, Europe Japan etc., but should really do the reforms which will work aiming at getting real progress and not just next loan, aid or military hardware. But you will not agree with anything I have said and I do not expect you to agree with everything.
There is something called amendments to constitution when it is not delivering and look at the amendments made. All to protect the wrong persons or to prolong the ruler at the time. So there is definitely a problem of honesty and integrity.
Having said all of the above, I do not like military rulers, but in Pakistan they are still more honest and loyal to the country than the whispering car salesmen you would like to deal with.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir i understand and agree on what you said about 9/11 and WOT. But i don't understand your praise for Musharraf and on the other hand side declare Gen.kayani a traitor. Did the terrorists/Taliban's network in FATA(tribal areas) and all over Pakistan came into existence within a day when Musharraf got off his throne, or it was always there but he didn't care how many thousands of Pakistani citizens die, until he holds the seat he was okay with them, never felt the need for an operation such as happening right now. OR the day he got of his throne all of a sudden MQM came into power and made Karachi a heavens for bhatahors, target killers and terrorists. Or the day he got off his seat Pakistan suddenly found itself in a severe energy crises.
The thing is he was only able to rule because Pakistan came out of severe sanctions after 9/11 which was a big relief for us and not only that but massive civilian and military aids came along which helped our economy grow. He had all the LOTAS's in his pockets from MQM,JUI-F to chauhdary bradran's, he let them loot or do whatever they want if he just gets to be in power. He did zilch for the energy sector, built no dams or any power plants, or improve the infrastructure for distribution of electricity, for which we are still suffering. Other than the local body elections (which is somehow a necessity for a dictator to be in power) he never did anything which was of utmost importance, and the cherry on top we got PPP in power in the next elections. He fought Kargil when a civilian govt wanted to negotiate with India and when came to power he realized that negotiations was the only way. It was like, if his sole purpose was to weaken Pakistan . . . . or he was just a plain idiot who got to rule.

Hi,

Pakistanis declared them their Islamic brothers---Mushy wanted them neutralized from day one.

Kiyani is a traitor because he kept quiet after Osama Bin Laden issue----. He never understood how much damage the image of Pakistan suffered at his hands----.

You Pakistanis were proud of your " QUIETMAN "---well true to his nature---he stayed quiet when he should have been screaming at the top of his lungs " Pakistan Helped the U S Locate Osama Bin Laden "---" Pakistan Helped Run This Operation "----. But just to save his skin---he sold the country----and made it a pariah nation---.

Remember those two times when there were 1 / 2 million troops sitting across Pakistan's border for years----. That is where pak troops were busy protecting the borders from indian invasion----.

 

[waleed3601]

These fasadi liberals using their elitist media

bro you have a serious complex (inferiority or superiority - idk which)
how do you know they are liberals who write these columns? and what harm is it doing for them to present their view point as it is? and if dawn is elitist media then you are an elitist consumer for reading it - hypocrisy much?
and none of the political columns dawn has published regarding GRS and NS tug of war has been anti army.
in fact they praise the army for becoming an established institution who respects its and the govt's boundaries in the open and works for the nation's interest in the shadows w/o asking for credit or public support.

 

[Neutron]

Hi,

Pakistanis declared them their Islamic brothers---Mushy wanted them neutralized from day one.

Kiyani is a traitor because he kept quiet after Osama Bin Laden issue----. He never understood how much damage the image of Pakistan suffered at his hands----.

You Pakistanis were proud of your " QUIETMAN "---well true to his nature---he stayed quiet when he should have been screaming at the top of his lungs " Pakistan Helped the U S Locate Osama Bin Laden "---" Pakistan Helped Run This Operation "----. But just to save his skin---he sold the country----and made it a pariah nation---.

Remember those two times when there were 1 / 2 million troops sitting across Pakistan's border for years----. That is where pak troops were busy protecting the borders from indian invasion----.

You cannot understand role of Gen kayani and how it benefited Pakistan............ It is just beyond your scope....... I equally respect both GRS and Kayani.......... GRS is just louder extension of kayani softer legacy.......... difficult to comprehend. ???? Isn't it ????............. yes keep on blaming kiyani with superficial tone .......I don't mind........ but silence is much powerful

 

[I M Sikander]

You cannot understand role of Gen kayani and how it benefited Pakistan............ It is just beyond your scope....... I equally respect both GRS and Kayani.......... GRS is just louder extension of kayani softer legacy.......... difficult to comprehend. ???? Isn't it ????............. yes keep on blaming kiyani with superficial tone .......I don't mind........ but silence is much powerful

Better not compare Raheel Shareef with tje corrupt and incompetent kiyani.

It was kiyani who patronised the whole NRO deal.
He headed PA for 6 years during which we lost control over all Fata areas.

GHQ was attacked when he himself was inside GHQ.

His tenure had been the most bloodiest in the pakistani history.

We saw thr OBL episode and he remained silent and did nothing. He wasted his whole tenure, doing arm twisting of zardari, to get extensions after extensions.

He gave full suporrt to mafias like Mqm and lashkr e Jhanvi, and let them do all the harampan they can.

Its because of generals like mushi, zia, kiyani,ayub and Yahya that people dare to bark against army despite great sacrifices by our javans.

 

[<ScRipT>.<3DiT>]

#Thank_you_Raheel_Shareef

 

[I M Sikander]

#Thank_you_Raheel_Shareef

Raheel shareef doing good job.
But he should depart without taking any extension.

Let the institution grow.
No body is inevitable.

 

[Neutron]

Better not compare Raheel Shareef with tje corrupt and incompetent kiyani.

It was kiyani who patronised the whole NRO deal.
He headed PA for 6 years during which we lost control over all Fata areas.

GHQ was attacked when he himself was inside GHQ.

His tenure had been the most bloodiest in the pakistani history.

We saw thr OBL episode and he remained silent and did nothing. He wasted his whole tenure, doing arm twisting of zardari, to get extensions after extensions.

He gave full suporrt to mafias like Mqm and lashkr e Jhanvi, and let them do all the harampan they can.

Its because of generals like mushi, zia, kiyani,ayub and Yahya that people dare to bark against army despite great sacrifices by our javans.

Come on.......telling me same old superficial narrative against kayani...........
And you miscalculated the fact that when he took over ...... army image was touching its low.........
widely accepted perceptions when he took over
1. We are fighting American war....Majority people were against operation.......even media used to narrate TTP narrative
2. Imbalance between civil military relationship

kiyani waited and prepared grounds for what GRS is achieving today.........

it is intellectual dishonesty and short sightedness, if you are blaming kiyani..........
he was ex DG isi.........he maintained low profile and worked for the greater change.........