Why Hindi-Urdu is One Language and Arabic is Several

[53fd]

Of course not. Both Hindi and Urdu have undergone a fundamental change over centuries. Are you saying that the Urdu used by Ghalib et al is the urdu spoken today in everyday use?

Yes, its very similar to the Urdu you hear in the Pakistani media today, & used by average people (not poets or people into literary works) with a decent knowledge of Urdu. However, even you have to admit that Shudh Hindi is a creation of post 1947 India.

 

[BJP*]

South Indian Muslims spoke Malayalam and all those other ancient South Indian languages. Urdu was not produced artificially, it was formed in a natural way when the Persian rulers with Turkish backgrounds interacted with the locals of the region. Meaning Urdu has a significant chunk of Sanskrit, Persian & Arabic. No one is denying the Sanskrit used in Urdu (of course Sanskrit is an older language than Urdu). It came in when locals interacted with the invading rulers. However, there was no language 'Hindi' used at that time that is understandable to average Hindi speakers today.

Persian was the language of the courts in the Indian subcontinent for a long time before it was replaced by Urdu over time.

can you please give example of the bold part..... if you are able to do so I think my work is almost over in this debate
regards

 

[alphamale]

So are you denying that the Hindi used today has no arabic or persian words in it? Also, are you saying that Kabir poetry & the manas poetry (I haven't read them) don't use any Persian words? Are you sure the 'Hindi' they used in their poetry was the Hindi actually used & understood by people today?

hindi used by general ppl in india is basically not pure hindi. it can be classified as hindustani lang. & yes there are some persian & arabic words in it.
i have studied hindi from class 1 to 10th, but if someone speak pure hindi in front of me, i would be scratching my head. same is the case with pakistanis in regard to pure urdu.

 

[Rig Vedic]

Yes, in the 1500's. Amir Khusro, the Urdu poet used to write poems in the 1200's. It doesn't matter if he called the language 'Hindwi', he could call the language he used anything he wanted, his works resemble the Rekhta Urdu used today. They are understood by the common Urdu speaker, but not at all by the average Hindi speaker. Meaning he was not a Hindi poet.

You are on the wrong track. You need to understand that Urdu is a descendant of Prakrit. The ONLY difference with Hindi is the borrowing of loan words from Turkish, Arabic and Persian. Urdu means military camp. The military camps of the Islamic invaders were the place where a pidgin language evolved, with many loan words. Khusro's father was an Turk from Afghanistan.

 

[53fd]

can you please give example of the bold part..... if you are able to do so I think my work is almost over in this debate
regards

It makes sense from a historical & cultural point of view that Urdu has a significant part of Sanskrit in it as well, along with Persian & Arabic. Muslim invaders of Persian & Azeri (Turkish) origins invaded the Indian subcontinent, & interacted & made families with the locals of the regions, many whose language was Sanskrit & its other dialects/derivants, such as Prakrit etc. Meaning a new language evolved called 'Hindwi' (which resembles present day Urdu the most), taking the best of both sides (Sanskrit/its derivatives, & Persian/Arabic/Azeri).

 

[twoplustwoisfour]

Yes, its very similar to the Urdu you hear in the Pakistani media today, & used by average people (not poets or people into literary works) with a decent knowledge of Urdu.

Very surprising. I would assume most modern day urdu speakers in Pakistan would not be using Ghalibian urdu in day-to-day usage.

However, even you have to admit that Shudh Hindi is a creation of post 1947 India.

There is nothing called Shudh Hindi. There is nothing called pure urdu as well. There is, however, something called shudh sanskrit.

 

[53fd]

You are on the wrong track. You need to understand that Urdu is a descendant of Prakrit. The ONLY difference with Hindi is the borrowing of loan words from Turkish, Arabic and Persian. Urdu means military camp. The military camps of the Islamic invaders were the place where a pidgin language evolved, with many loan words. Khusro's father was an Turk from Afghanistan.

Urdu is a descendant of Prakrit & all other derivants of Sanskrit. However, there is no such thing as 'Hindi' (as we know it today) used at that time.

 

[53fd]

Very surprising. I would assume most modern day urdu speakers in Pakistan would not be using Ghalibian urdu in day-to-day usage.

Older, native speakers of Urdu, such as my grandparents & parents speak a very high level of Rekhta Urdu, very posh. You see this trend dissolve in trendy young kids with Bollywood's Hindustani, but if you listen to the Urdu kids studying in government schools use (as opposed to kids in private schools), you will see they speak a very high level of Urdu. This type of urdu is also heard on Pakistani news channels.

There is nothing called Shudh Hindi. There is nothing called pure urdu as well. There is, however, something called shudh sanskrit.

I agree with that.

 

[53fd]

hindi used by general ppl in india is basically not pure hindi. it can be classified as hindustani lang. & yes there are some persian & arabic words in it.
i have studied hindi from class 1 to 10th, but if someone speak pure hindi in front of me, i would be scratching my head. same is the case with pakistanis in regard to pure urdu.

Not really. If you go talk to kids studying in private schools in Pakistan, English will pretty much be their first language lol. However, go to Pakistani government schools, & listen to their Urdu, you'll be scratching your head. This type of Urdu is heard on many Pakistani news channels as well.

 

[Rig Vedic]

Urdu is a descendant of Prakrit & all other derivants of Sanskrit. However, there is no such thing as 'Hindi' (as we know it today) used at that time.

Obviously language evolves. Shakespeare's English is not the same as today's English. The Mandarin of today is not the same as the Chinese of 1000 AD. Similarly, the language of 1000 AD is not the same as today's Hindi. The label Hindi may be new, the older Prakrit variant was called Khadi Boli, but what difference does that make?

 

[LaBong]

Urdu is a descendant of Prakrit & all other derivants of Sanskrit. However, there is no such thing as 'Hindi' (as we know it today) used at that time.

It makes sense from a historical & cultural point of view that Urdu has a significant part of Sanskrit in it as well, along with Persian & Arabic. Muslim invaders of Persian & Azeri (Turkish) origins invaded the Indian subcontinent, & interacted & made families with the locals of the regions, many whose language was Sanskrit & its other dialects/derivants, such as Prakrit etc. Meaning a new language evolved called 'Hindwi' (which resembles present day Urdu the most), taking the best of both sides (Sanskrit/its derivatives, & Persian/Arabic/Azeri).

The words Sanskrit and Prakrit mean refined speech and vernacular speech respectively, which exactly describe the two languages. All languages in Northern and Eastern India are based on Prakrit stratum with many Tatsama Sanskrit words. However Sanskrit loan words in Hindustani is less as compared to Bengali AFAIK.

 

[53fd]

You are on the wrong track. You need to understand that Urdu is a descendant of Prakrit. The ONLY difference with Hindi is the borrowing of loan words from Turkish, Arabic and Persian. Urdu means military camp. The military camps of the Islamic invaders were the place where a pidgin language evolved, with many loan words. Khusro's father was an Turk from Afghanistan.

Persian/Dari has been used in Afghanistan for a long time. As I mentioned, the rulers who invaded the Indian subcontinent were Persian (meaning they spoke Persian, belonging to the part of present day Afghanistan & Iran, the areas where Persian/Dari was spoken). The people who invaded Persia (parts of present day Afghanistan & Iran where Persian was spoken) spoke Azeri, which is similar to the Turkish spoken today. Also, don't forget that Persian is similar to Arabic itself. That's why you see all the Persian/Arabic/Turkish influences in Urdu, besides the obvious Sanskrit chunk in the language.

 

[twoplustwoisfour]

Older, native speakers of Urdu, such as my grandparents & parents speak a very high level of Rekhta Urdu, very posh. You see this trend dissolve with Bollywood's Hindustani, but if you listen to the Urdu kids studying in government schools use (as opposed to kids in private schools), you will see they speak a very high level of Urdu. This type of urdu is also heard in many Pakistani news channels.

I'm guessing that might be because Urdu for the past few centuries was stadardised as it was the official language. Hindi on the other hand grew organically and thus has many offshoots.

 

[alphamale]

Not really. If you go talk to kids studying in private schools in Pakistan, English will pretty much be their first language lol. However, go to Pakistani government schools, & listen to their Urdu, you'll be scratching your head. This type of Urdu is heard on many Pakistani news channels as well.

my point was that in general talking , ppl both in india & pak don't use formal language. i have watched several stage shows of pak as well as few channels. it is the same what i speak daily.

 

[Jango]

street urdu is same to hindi but the formal and proper urdu is not the same to street one.its as simple as that