Why dont we develop millitary ties with Russia?

[batmannow]

sir i respect your opinion and you are right that a country's interests are supreme.
yes its important to balance the relationship in modern world.
yes just look at the case related to the sale of jf-17 engines where russia acted even though the indians protested.
russia already has good relations with IRAN, CHINA and the other islamic world
but you cannot ignore the india equation it would take a drastic change i foreign policy. altough india has become close to the us in recent times but still you can find the deep involvement of the russians and indians in every sphere ,space,military,IT,intelligence,cultural.
look for example the US helped india to get the nuclear deal but soon they agreed to buy fuel from the french and russians

the best option according to me would be that pakistan can start joining russia independently in the world forum and support it to get the confidence between the two on track first.
thanks

moscow;sir
i guss no one incluing me , so stupid to "ignore the india equation" or its importance on world affairs, but the thing is , india today is obssesed with a dream, to become a power like US?
in its , obssesesion ,it is willing to take or give everything & anything, this was the part of , the discussion inside india itself, BJP accused SONIA ghandhi as a spoke to US! i guss lets come on the point, EU+USA are affraid off russian reoccupaynce of the EASTRN eroupe & therefore , they arent going to give russia a fair account?
for this reason , frist thing russia did was the restrengthining its foots in latin ammerica, VENEZUALA was being put in as a new strategic castle of russia?

and i guss, its about time if russia can engage itself , with bigger non arab muslim states in asia & in africa, IRAN yes it has good relations with masscow but still, its cant be called a defence pact?

what russia needs to open or create , is a equal chances for the states or the nations ,who were pin pointed by, the west+ usa , for thier religious n defenations!
i think asia . has the bigest potential , thats why every US+EU company wishes to have a pice inside asia, russia with the help of PAKISTAN ,IRAN can devolp a real ulternate opportunity , to bring all the asia including india on one plateform?

 

[Anwar2]

Both Russia and Pakistan should realign their foreign policies in view of the changing dynamics of Central Asia.

During the Bush years the USA / NATO tightened the nooze around Russia in the guise of “colored” Revolutions. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Georgia, Kirghiz all joined NATO or went into anti-Russia camp. Kazakhistan and Uzbekistan too became rather distant members of CIS. President Putin tagged along with the Yelistin’s doctrine of outreach to the West for the first few years. In the mean time Russia was given a few lollipops like G-8 membership (actually G-8+1) and meaningless terms with EU.

Russia was banded into the “Alliance against Terror” using the typical neo-con fear mongering techniques, using Chechnya as a bogey. Russia was suckered into believing that they are a true boot “Western nation” facing the common menace of “Islamic Terrorism”. Russia was made to adopt a rather brutal solution in Chechnya that went counter to their assertion that Chechens are Russian citizens. This opened up the festering wounds in the rest of Kavkaz, giving rise to the spiral of death culminating in the unfortunate Belsan tragedy.

Condoleeza Rice’s instigated aggression by Saakashvili led Georgia finally opened the eyes of Russia. The Russian response was unexpected, Saakashvilli had betted his cards on the US forces in Iraq just 450 kms to the South, and some magical Israeli support. Both did not materialize.

Lets face it; Russia is not really a European nation. It is as much Islamic, central Asian and far eastern as European. People of Kazan, Dagestan and several Muslim Republics are as much Russian as the people from Moscow and St Peterburgh. Russia seems to be rediscovering its ethnic diversity and true dependencies. It finally has to make amends with its Muslim people and Muslim neighbors towards a common cause and better future. That circle includes Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan as well.

India has enjoyed a rather opportunistic relationship with Russia for a long time. Following the 1-2-3 deal, and Bush's promise as potential regional power role against China, its finally switched its allegiance to the USA. It still remains a great market for Russian weapon systems, but slowly its coming down to threadbare level. Just look at the Russian work share % in the Phalcon program! Russia does not make much money in the initial sale of weapons, the real money makers are the upgrades. Such upgrades are now almost exclusively Israeli.

Pakistan too must relieve itself of the stranglehold of the USA. We are waging Americas war on our own soil, and not even been paid 10% of the cost.

Russia is Pakistan's natural long term ally.

 

[Anwar2]

Both Russia and Pakistan should realign their foreign policies in view of the changing dynamics of Central Asia.

During the Bush years the USA / NATO tightened the nooze around Russia in the guise of “colored” Revolutions. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Georgia, Kirghiz all joined NATO or went into anti-Russia camp. Kazakhistan and Uzbekistan too became rather distant members of CIS. President Putin tagged along with the Yelistin’s doctrine of outreach to the West for the first few years. In the mean time Russia was given a few lollipops like G-8 membership (actually G-8+1) and meaningless terms with EU.

Russia was banded into the “Alliance against Terror” using the typical neo-con fear mongering techniques, using Chechnya as a bogey. Russia was suckered into believing that they are a true boot “Western nation” facing the common menace of “Islamic Terrorism”. Russia was made to adopt a rather brutal solution in Chechnya that went counter to their assertion that Chechens are Russian citizens. This opened up the festering wounds in the rest of Kavkaz, giving rise to the spiral of death culminating in the unfortunate Belsan tragedy.

Condoleeza Rice’s instigated aggression by Saakashvili led Georgia finally opened the eyes of Russia. The Russian response was unexpected, Saakashvilli had betted his cards on the US forces in Iraq just 450 kms to the South, and some magical Israeli support. Both did not materialize.

Lets face it; Russia is not really a European nation. It is as much Islamic, central Asian and far eastern as European. People of Kazan, Dagestan and several Muslim Republics are as much Russian as the people from Moscow and St Peterburgh. Russia seems to be rediscovering its ethnic diversity and true dependencies. It finally has to make amends with its Muslim people and Muslim neighbors towards a common cause and better future. That circle includes Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan as well.

India has enjoyed a rather opportunistic relationship with Russia for a long time. Following the 1-2-3 deal, and Bush's promise as potential regional power role against China, its finally switched its allegiance to the USA. It still remains a great market for Russian weapon systems, but slowly its coming down to threadbare level. Just look at the Russian work share % in the Phalcon program! Russia does not make much money in the initial sale of weapons, the real money makers are the upgrades. Such upgrades are now almost exclusively Israeli.

Pakistan too must relieve itself of the stranglehold of the USA. We are waging Americas war on our own soil, and not even been paid 10% of the cost.

Russia is Pakistan's natural long term ally.

 

[Moscow]

moscow;sir
i guss no one incluing me , so stupid to "ignore the india equation" or its importance on world affairs, but the thing is , india today is obssesed with a dream, to become a power like US?
in its , obssesesion ,it is willing to take or give everything & anything, this was the part of , the discussion inside india itself, BJP accused SONIA ghandhi as a spoke to US! i guss lets come on the point, EU+USA are affraid off russian reoccupaynce of the EASTRN eroupe & therefore , they arent going to give russia a fair account?
for this reason , frist thing russia did was the restrengthining its foots in latin ammerica, VENEZUALA was being put in as a new strategic castle of russia?

and i guss, its about time if russia can engage itself , with bigger non arab muslim states in asia & in africa, IRAN yes it has good relations with masscow but still, its cant be called a defence pact?

what russia needs to open or create , is a equal chances for the states or the nations ,who were pin pointed by, the west+ usa , for thier religious n defenations!
i think asia . has the bigest potential , thats why every US+EU company wishes to have a pice inside asia, russia with the help of PAKISTAN ,IRAN can devolp a real ulternate opportunity , to bring all the asia including india on one plateform?

yes sir you are right russia needs a strong foothold in south asia its true and i think the think tank already realizes this but the problem could be
"how much could russia afford "we have to realize russia ia a developing country and not a superpower like the USSR was.
russian economy is not as strong as the us or china's is so the real truth is it cannot afford a lot of things quickly. the recent drop in oil prices also adds to its effect.
for now they are firstly upgrading its own military and ammunition .projects which were delayed or stalled are being restarted or finished with the recent availability of funds.
traditionally the central asian countries is a russian stronghold. but it needs something in south asia so i am sure they are working on it and pakistan does fall into the equation.already it has its influence in afganistan. the next decade might very well decide which way russia tilts.

thanx

 

[iceman2009]

For pakistan Russian Ties wud be an eyeopener

For the right price Pakistan will be surprised at what the Russians can give you...

Great military hardware at half the price of the west

But they carriage baggage too. like spare parts issues and maintenance.

Despite all this with chinease military hardware filling more and more of pakistans needs ,,,RUSSIA wud fit easier with pakistani/china systems far better than USA or french.

Chinease weapons have much in common to russian hardware

I think india is moving towards Israel & soon USA so russia may tempt pakistan soon.

 

[paritosh]

india has almost all russian weaponry...we co-developed BRahmos...we are looking at close space ties...now as our space program is maturing...russians an indians would like to extend the partnership to space as well...
all our armed forces have russian equipment and russia from just maintaining them earns millions...we have russian movie festivals every month....it'ss not just military ties...we have a history of friendly relations...

 

[iceman2009]

In reply to Paritosh.

Like you i,m indian.

BUT I CAN SEE A SHIFT in indian attitude to RUSSIA why can,t you.

India has just spent $3 billion with USA in 6 months buying C130J hercules transports and poseideon MARITIME planes.

On the other hand there is a full diplomatic war gouing on with russia on GORSKHOV carrier price issue.

India has orderd Israeli SAMS the spyder and inducted aerostat radars from them too..

Submarine deal went to Scorpene of france.

The HAWK trainers came from UK.

Russia will remain big player in india but their 70% share of our market is falling rapidly to ISRAEL & SOON USA......

 

[Moscow]

it is definitively NOT pakistan's natural long term ally

reasons?

-pakistan was responsible for its breakup
-i believe another reason for ussr breakup was that the middle eastern religion practicing population was getting critically high (20%)
-russia has more in common with Europe and Amercia than the middle east (same religion, similar customs, etc...)
-russia also is not the best of friends with china (good example is that even though chinese have lots of money, russians chose another party to provide cash for the 5th gen fighter)

believe me sir russia has very good relations with china there is no question of pakfa in between.
russia never has common ideas with the americans or europe.

thanx

 

[nwmalik]

there has been lot bad blood between pakistan and russia. Russian hold pakistan responsible for USSR breakup. But the way things are changing and progressing, india going usa and israel way, alliances will change. Already russians are clever they have sensed the shift in indian position and the ToT part of the deals is coming in drops rather then flowing.
and also remember enemy of your enemy is your friend.
friend of your enemy is your enemy.
so russia and pakistan will have to develop common ground in future depending upon the rate of change in indian stance, whether they like it or not

 

[fatman17]

this is why?

ASIA PACIFIC

Date Posted: 19-Dec-2008

Jane's Defence Weekly

India surveys its strategic options

Trefor Moss JDW Asia-Pacific Editor - London

Delhi has begun to move away from its traditional reliance on Russian military equipment as its interests align with those of other allies, writes Trefor Moss

India has not found its long alliance with the Soviet Union easy to consign to history, and nothing has demonstrated this more ably than New Delhi's long-term practice of reflexively looking Moscow's way when it comes to the purchase of military equipment. However, the course of 2008 - in particular the jolt that the attack on Mumbai has dealt to Indian strategic thinking - suggests that India is now ready to embrace a wider range of partners as it contemplates its future.

Most recently, India and Israel, which over the past decade or so have come to enjoy one of the strongest relationships in the defence world, reaffirmed their co-operation in mid-December when Delhi announced that it was ordering the SPYDER mobile air-defence system from Israel's Rafael.

The deal was arguably as noteworthy for its symbolic significance as for its estimated USD360 million value, since the SPYDER will replace India's old Russian-built surface-to-air missile systems and reinforce the picture of an India that is increasingly turning to new allies for its defence equipment in preference to once-favoured Russian suppliers.

By contrast, Pakistan's decision to purchase an airborne early warning and control system from China for about USD278 million, revealed at the same time in mid-December, showed Islamabad to be in an opposing position - one that sees it increasingly yoked to what is already its most important ally.

India's rise as an economic and political power, unencumbered by any of China's post-Tiananmen baggage, has given Delhi plenty of options in its search for new defence partners. In terms of procurement, this has meant an important two-way relationship with Tel Aviv, seen in the joint development of Barak missile systems and unmanned aerial vehicles such as the Heron and, besides the SPYDER deal, the sale to India of equipment ranging from Tavor rifles to Phalcon radars. The Israeli capital is now home to a growing community of Indian defence professionals.

India has also been steadily widening its defence relationship with Israel's other principal ally, the United States, ever since the two signed an agreement on defence co-operation in mid-2005. The purchases of the former USS Trenton and six C-130J transport aircraft were followed by a visit to Washington by Indian Defence Minister AK Antony in September, as the US eyes lucrative Indian tenders for 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) and 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters (RSH).

Politics in the wake of November's terrorist attack on Mumbai could further bind India to the US. "Post-Mumbai we have put a lot of eggs into the American basket," explains Arun Sahgal of India's United Services Institute. "We are expecting them to push [Pakistan] hard on our behalf. As a result we are not even contemplating any military action [against Pakistan]."

Mumbai has presented Washington with an opportunity to cement its warming relations with India. It would therefore not be surprising if Pakistan - for a long time Washington's key ally in the region - should prove reluctant to act forcefully against Islamic militants, not only because of the angry reaction it could provoke domestically but also because such action would only deepen the Indian-US relationship, perhaps to Pakistan's detriment.

Not unrelated was India's signing of a new security pact with Japan, another front-line US ally, in October - a move that many observers saw as a further sign of India aligning itself as part of an Israeli-Japanese-US defensive bloc. "It was certainly very important," Sahgal says of the pact. "The Chinese were not very amused."

However, India's desire for closer ties with Japan stems not from the formation of any new US-led geopolitical axis, he argues, so much as from three objectives shared by Delhi and Tokyo: a need to secure sea lines of communication; a desire to counter China; and an interest, especially on India's part, in obtaining high technology.

The delays and cost overruns that have dogged India's procurement of Russian systems in recent years have undeniably damaged Moscow's prospects of retaining its status as India's primary equipment supplier just as Israeli, Japanese and US stock has risen. Even though Delhi has now agreed to pay Russia's USD2 billion ransom to have the refit of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov completed, there was a sense that the project was only going ahead because the ship plays too important a role in India's strategic plans - not because the Indian government considered Russia's demands, which have tripled the refit's original agreed cost, to be in any way reasonable.

Nonetheless, the announcement in mid-December of India's USD1.2 billion purchase of 80 Russian Mil Mi-17 medium-lift helicopters was proof that, for Russia, the Indian defence market remains a going concern, if not the cash cow of old. Even now, Russia is proceeding with the construction of Talwar-class guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy (IN), as well as with the leasing to the IN of the submarine Nerpa, while Rosoboronexport will compete in 2009 against French and German manufacturers to supply India with six new diesel-electric submarines.

While insisting that major tenders - such as the MRCA and RSH competitions - now provide a level playing field for all bidders, Sahgal suggests that Russia could increasingly find itself struggling to make headway in India in technology "areas where Russian expertise has not been successful". Orders for relatively low-tech systems, such as tanks, will still go Moscow's way, he predicts; but "in high-tech areas, such as command and control, we may go to the West".

Even the traditional strength of Russian equipment over the US and European competition - its cheapness - may now carry less weight in light of the Gorshkov fiasco.

However, India will be content to let the US, Russia and others tussle for its affections. Even in the wake of the new challenges presented by Mumbai, it has never had such a wealth of strategic options.

 

[Indicom]

there has been lot bad blood between pakistan and russia. Russian hold pakistan responsible for USSR breakup. But the way things are changing and progressing, india going usa and israel way, alliances will change. Already russians are clever they have sensed the shift in indian position and the ToT part of the deals is coming in drops rather then flowing.
and also remember enemy of your enemy is your friend.
friend of your enemy is your enemy.
so russia and pakistan will have to develop common ground in future depending upon the rate of change in indian stance, whether they like it or not

Russia hold Pakistan for the breakup??!c'mon which University have u studied in?what is Pakistan?what capability it has against Russia or erstwhile Soviet Union,your education has totally blurred your vision and thought process,smell some coffee and walk on.Also India & Russia will always remain friends be it USA or no USA.

Period.

 

[paritosh]

In reply to Paritosh.

Like you i,m indian.

BUT I CAN SEE A SHIFT in indian attitude to RUSSIA why can,t you.

India has just spent $3 billion with USA in 6 months buying C130J hercules transports and poseideon MARITIME planes.

On the other hand there is a full diplomatic war gouing on with russia on GORSKHOV carrier price issue.

India has orderd Israeli SAMS the spyder and inducted aerostat radars from them too..

Submarine deal went to Scorpene of france.

The HAWK trainers came from UK.

Russia will remain big player in india but their 70% share of our market is falling rapidly to ISRAEL & SOON USA......

yeah...you are right....but one thing that has to be noticed is the dynamic nature of india-russia defense relations....
russia's role for long has been that of a weapons exporter...i mean the buyer-seller relationship...maintenance as well...
but now with BrahmosII and pak-fa...we have the defense ties continuing into the next decade as well...
with our growing economy we are experimenting with the 'not-so-cheap' american and israeli weaponry...but our nuclear reactors and a lot more has russian tech...so the sphere of russian influence is so great that in spite of the current interest in western tech...the alliance is likely to stretch

 

[mean_bird]

Russia hold Pakistan for the breakup??!c'mon which University have u studied in?what is Pakistan?what capability it has against Russia or erstwhile Soviet Union,your education has totally blurred your vision and thought process,smell some coffee and walk on.Also India & Russia will always remain friends be it USA or no USA.

Period.

Yes it does

pakistan was a key player during the soviet invasion of afghanistan in the 80s. Pakistan was an ally of the US and without its(pakistan) help the US couldn't have helped the talibans defeat Russia.

The cost incurred during the war to russia and its inability to reach the warm waters of the Indian Ocean did give a blow to russia and aided in its break-up.

India has always been an ally of Russia but that doesn't mean pakistan was its enemy before that. We still aren't, but the 80's episode certainly soured the possibility of a much better relationship with russia.

 

[duhastmish]

Here comes a twist in stories.. like i kept saying in many of my post. there are no permanent enemy or firends. if this news is true there might a joy in pakistan and a lull in indian side.

Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani Thursday met his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin and discussed Pak-Russia bilateral relations.

The meeting here at the sidelines of the World Economic Forum focused on further strengthening the bilateral relations.

Gilani was apprised by Prime Minister Putin about the role played by his government in defusing the tension between Pakistan and India in the wake of Mumbai attacks.

The Prime Minister appreciated the role played by Russia and informed him that Pakistan had extended its cooperation to India in investigation and would share the results with it.

The two leaders also agreed to further expand the Pak-Russia strategic dialogue besides enhancing cooperation in areas of defence and economy.

 

[Moscow]

Here comes a twist in stories.. like i kept saying in many of my post. there are no permanent enemy or firends. if this news is true there might a joy in pakistan and a lull in indian side.

Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani Thursday met his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin and discussed Pak-Russia bilateral relations.

The meeting here at the sidelines of the World Economic Forum focused on further strengthening the bilateral relations.

Gilani was apprised by Prime Minister Putin about the role played by his government in defusing the tension between Pakistan and India in the wake of Mumbai attacks.

The Prime Minister appreciated the role played by Russia and informed him that Pakistan had extended its cooperation to India in investigation and would share the results with it.

The two leaders also agreed to further expand the Pak-Russia strategic dialogue besides enhancing cooperation in areas of defence and economy.

thats avery positive development i think.
thanks