Why do we fear Secularism?

[leo1476]

Even in India which is a democracy, from time to time the foundations of democracy is tested by its illiterate people and its moronic and corrupt politicians.

So many innocent people are killed in riots because democracy breaks down from time to time and there is no rule of law nor an efficient delivery of justice.

India has many functioning democratic institutions but it has at best a flawed democratic foundation.---Because the people are illiterate just like the people in Pakistan.

 

[vsdoc]

I am sorry but I do not agree brother. You are confusing terms here.

The only time in our history when our democracy was truly challenged was when Indira imposed Emergency.

The other thing I do not agree with is the connection of literacy as we know it and democracy. The Indian electorate has now come to believe in their democratic rights as their birthright. It is not an "if" for us, but a "when." And over time, our electorate across the country has matured, regardless of their level of education.

I have heard our servants discussing politics, I have discussed politics with auto wallas, I have spent many extremely stimulating sessions of heated political debate at my local nayi every month. Nothing can be further than the truth brother.

Secularism is different from democracy. It is a social phenomenon more than a judicial or excecutive one. And over centuries, India has been the birthplace of secularism. We take all into our fold. And make them part of us.

Look at us Parsis. We fled religious persecution by the arab invaders of our motherland Persia. We found refuge in India. We became Indians. And today we are as Indian as any hindu or muslim. We contributed to society. And we became part of the society. We maintain our identity, but we hold our Indianness as paramount. India allows us that. And as Indians, we owe that to our country.

Look at the mughals invaders for that matter. They came to invade and loot initially. But over time India grew on them. India took them in. And soon they stayed on and built empires in India, and became as Indian as other Indians who were there before them.

Look at the remanants of the Greek army of Alexander. Indians today.

Look at the the anglo-Indian community. The british left because they never came here to be one of us. Bu the anglos stayed behind. Indians today.

Look at the Portugese and French settlers in India. Indians today.

Look at the siddhi tribe from Africa. Indians today.

Its part of our collective cultural nature. Flexibility. Tolerance. Acceptance. Harmony. Assimilation.

The culture of the land has always been the most powerful force that has bound us as a people over centuries. Simply put, India has always triumphed. And we did not need a sword to do it.

The breakdown in this harmony that takes place from time to time, has a lot to do with what happened in 1947. But the generations have changed. India has moved on. As have Indians. As have the leaders they elect.

Our secularism is not negotiable. As is not our democracy.

Cheers, Doc

 

[leo1476]

@vsdoc:

Surely, Indian "democracy" is not on par with say Swedish democracy. When the rule of law is not uniformly applied how can the country be called a true democracy.

Have the murders of Sikhs in 1984 been caught and punished. When hundreds of muslims were killed in Bombay, no trial has been successful.

Yes, India has elections and leaders are elected but that is not "democracy". Iran has elections too.

India as you rightly say is TOLERANT and I am a great admirer of Gandhi, but you are confusing "tolerance" and "democracy".

Indian society appears to be fundamentally tolerant but modern democratic instituions are not fully matured. The rule of law is not absolute in India.

There are many people in India who are intolerant and when they commit great crimes they go unpunished. No one dares to touch Bal Thackeray and other Hindu goons who go around killing innocent men women and children.

 

[Kasrkin]

I agree with nightcrawler though not for the reasons he has mentioned. Pakistan needs to formalise army rule as part of its constitution and save itself its blow hot blow cold one sided affair with democracy.

As to why Pakistan fears secularism, the reason is not difficult to fathom. If Pakistan did not, it would still be part of secular India, as would Pakistani muslims and Bangladeshi muslims.

If they had to be secular, why ask for Pakistan in the first place at all?

You seem to know why Pakistanis fear secularism, and say it is because Pakistan wanted to be a separate state from India, but thats not a reason. Thats a rhetorical point at best, and one I do not agree with.

Jinnah was the mastermind behind our independence and he made it pretty clear that Pakistan would not be a religiously ruled state. He stressed on this again and again, perhaps arguably more so than Indian leaders at the time.

Muslims wanted a separate state because they did not trust the Hindus to uphold the ideals of true secularism (which I think turned out to be a well founded fear) and NOT because they did not believe in secularism. If Pakistan's founders believed in Pakistan for Muslims only, or Pakistan without secularism then they would have done things very differently. Pakistan suffered from a lack of approval by the Indian Islamic clergy for this very reason.

I don't argue with the fact that we failed to uphold many of these lofty ideals, but that doesn't mean that the Pakistani state is fatally flawed or irredeemable as our Indian friends are tempted to think. Many Pakistan still hold true to that vision not because it is fashionable, but because they believe in the country and its founding ideals. Things can still change, and they will.

Its a good question as to why Pakistanis fear secularism. I am not too sure about this myself but I know it to be true. You say secularism and it makes people uneasy, even the educated high classes. But thankfully this trend is changing and people are being more outspoken nowadays, causing fierce debate at all social levels which I think is excellent.

 

[nightcrawler]

If they had to be secular, why ask for Pakistan in the first place at all?


Cheers, Doc

this is bad this is really a bad & ill-fated remark. Remember when I quoted Ayesha Jalal book; it was Hindus who were forcefully adulterating 1937 elections & not the Muslims!!
If this is Congress democracy then surely Pakistan is to be built & it did because of Congress show-off democracy.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

You dont really understand the roots of secularism.
Secularism was created because wise people were right & religion was proved wrong look at the history of Aristotle Newton Davinci Plato...............
This was right as all of these were greatly upset by narrowminded church priests who take everythinh written in adulterated Bible to be right which though proved wrong.
However, Islam is in no contradiction to science in particular & reason in general. So we dont need to adabt any kind of others governing systems we are as good as gold if Islamic interpretations are done by wise & learned people.

How well is it working so far?

 

[nightcrawler]

How well is it working so far?

Sir it is even isn't adobted yet

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Sir it is even isn't adobted yet

I mean being an Islamic State.

 

[humblehobbes]

@vsdoc:

Surely, Indian "democracy" is not on par with say Swedish democracy. When the rule of law is not uniformly applied how can the country be called a true democracy.

Have the murders of Sikhs in 1984 been caught and punished. When hundreds of muslims were killed in Bombay, no trial has been successful.

Yes, India has elections and leaders are elected but that is not "democracy". Iran has elections too.

India as you rightly say is TOLERANT and I am a great admirer of Gandhi, but you are confusing "tolerance" and "democracy".

Indian society appears to be fundamentally tolerant but modern democratic instituions are not fully matured. The rule of law is not absolute in India.

There are many people in India who are intolerant and when they commit great crimes they go unpunished. No one dares to touch Bal Thackeray and other Hindu goons who go around killing innocent men women and children.

1) Sweden was industrialized much before Indians. Level of Literacy is more and with it comes maturity, which makes secularism and democracy actually work for the people than being an impediment as seen in India here.
2) I cannot comment on that. Because its one of the most common things which a person would take in a forum to disgrace India when someone proclaims it as democratic Secular. For the 60 + years of Indian Existence, People nitpick on such horrendous issues, which anyway are not endorsed by the majority. A small peek in to any paper's would let you know that the average citizen is upset about the delayed / denied justice of Sikh riot case and the Bombay riots

PS : you forgot to mention Babri Masjid and Gujarat

3) Democracy is worthless without tolerance. An intolerant society can never be democratic or secular.

4) How can you compare Iran and India, when it comes to elections. you know its different. I dont want to bash it in your head about how vibrant(albeit a lot corrupt) the Indian democracy is.

5) Every society has its share of bad apples. Which the silent Honest majority suffer and curse. They go unpunished. Which is not a flaw of democracy. But the flaw of the uneducated masses. You cant expect a car to run, if you put water in its tank. Illiterate/unemployed people are easily swayed by jingoistic statements as was the case of teh Marathi Manoos.

 

[Developereo]

Why do we fear Secularism?

Secular USA has the word Creator in its Constitution and the word God on its currency. Courtrooms in many states hold a plaque of the ten commandments, and people are not allowed to take the oath on any other religious book except the Bible.

The Islamic Republic of Iran, on the other hand, allows non-Muslims to take the oath on their own religious book.

Secular France has banned Muslim head scarfs, while allowing Christian crosses and Jewish star-of-David pendants. Next door, secular Switzerland has passed laws restricting the practice of one specific religion.

Most countries in the West have official holidays around Christian holy days.

At the end of the day, the issue is about respecting human rights and diversity. Labels like secularism or Islamism are irrelevant.

If Pakistan did not, it would still be part of secular India, as would Pakistani muslims and Bangladeshi muslims.

If they had to be secular, why ask for Pakistan in the first place at all?

It is fashionable for the Pakistani elite here to be pro-secular in the Pakistan of today with its miniscule and politically irrelevant minorities.

Would be a whole different kettle of fish if Pakistan had as many hindus and sikhs today, as India has muslims.

That is when their true "secular" nature would be manifested.

Cheers, Doc

First of all, this discussion is about Pakistan so best to leave India out of it.

Secondly, it is certain that you missed the irony inherent in your own post. Perhaps one day, Indians can become mature enough to see their fellow citizens as "Indians" rather than pigeonholing them as "muslims" or "hindus" or "sikhs", to be used to pat oneself on the back to score meaningless points on message boards.

It's a bit like the guy who brags to everyone how enlightened he is because he has two black friends, and three latino friends, and four Asian friends.

 

[MilesTogo]

I think assumption that illeterate people can not take wise decision is wrong.

 

[Hulk]

@vsdoc:

Surely, Indian "democracy" is not on par with say Swedish democracy. When the rule of law is not uniformly applied how can the country be called a true democracy.

Have the murders of Sikhs in 1984 been caught and punished. When hundreds of muslims were killed in Bombay, no trial has been successful.

Yes, India has elections and leaders are elected but that is not "democracy". Iran has elections too.

India as you rightly say is TOLERANT and I am a great admirer of Gandhi, but you are confusing "tolerance" and "democracy".

Indian society appears to be fundamentally tolerant but modern democratic instituions are not fully matured. The rule of law is not absolute in India.

There are many people in India who are intolerant and when they commit great crimes they go unpunished. No one dares to touch Bal Thackeray and other Hindu goons who go around killing innocent men women and children.

You always have problem understanding difference between democracy and law and order implementation. The law and order problem is general and not limited to these cases, we do not have strong judicial system and it takes time to mature we are only 60+ odd years old, system is improving every decade. Just because you had a riot or some people were not punished does not mean it is not a democracy.

Also what people forget is that even hundreds of Hindus were killed in riots, even they did not get justice. So it is not like Muslims are not getting Justice but Hindus are getting justice. The problem is some people make it look religious.

There is a history why groups like Bajrang Dal and Shiv Sena came into making, before 80's Muslims were united and any issues between Hindus and Muslims, Hindus were hit badly. The Muslims also got support from the government as they were treated as vote bank. It was in my time that riots happened and Muslims were left Scott free. This situation leaded to creation of groups to protect Hindus. So it is not that Hindus have been killing and Muslims have been very innocent, as the media has made it look like. The fact is that before 80's media was not strong.

 

[nightcrawler]

I mean being an Islamic State.

We are Islamic on paper as you are democrats on paper


The War on Democracy.rmvb War on Democracy.rmvb

 

[apophenia]

I think secularism is a myth in societies that are organized around principles of community and identity much like ours.

 

[Desert Fox]

Secularism is the only way for Muslims countries to prosper! Take Turkey for example!

In secularism it doesn't matter if your a Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Ahmadi etc etc...... What matters is that your a part of the Nation and your voice is just as important as any other Pakistanis! Religion shouldn't be allowed in certain areas and government is one them!