Why Are We Sending This Attack Helicopter to Pakistan?

[Paksanity]

Z.A. Bhutto, in his 1967 book The Myth of Independence, advocated Pakistan seek to address India as an equal and advocated conquering a substantial portion of India proper, in addition to Kashmir. (He already knew the Kashmiris, after the 1965 debacle, didn't want to join Pakistan, otherwise they would have cooperated with Pakistani infiltrators rather than cooperate with Indian security forces.)

Moment India realize Kashmiris are willing to stay, she will agree for a referendum. There is a reason so-called mission 44 failed. They went to any and every limit to succeed but still. Not a single seat won in Muslim areas of Kashmir.

Z.A. Bhutto wasn't a realist. His diplomacy revolved around charming foreign dignitaries, fierry speeches, stormy visits and grand Islamic bloc. In short term he would make impact but faced with reality of world politics, it was a dead end.

Besides, by 1976 his government had lost people's confidence and he was increasingly taking refuge in foreign fantasies; as a mean of escape from harsh domestic realities at home. I would not take his words seriously. Besides we have come a long long way from the mentality of 1970. Today's Pakistan is much sane, realistic and pragmatic. Being a really young nation, you should see it in the context of our evolution as a nation, not as central beliefs of our society. As I see it one day we will reach our conclusion that peace is more important than hostility. In fact the idea of reaching out to India is very acceptable in Pakistani society now. There is however increasing hostility in Indian society. My only fear is they will not be ready for peace when we are. That would be one of the greatest blunders people of this region will ever make.

 

[Mutakalim]

I really like how he says ''we'', as if the Americans actually consider him a part of themselves. As usual, trying to be more loyal than the king.

Failure pictured below:
-mod edit-
(Just a regular day of Zarb-e-Azb.)
It took the US and a coalition of fifty other countries fourteen years to tackle a Jihadist challenge. Pakistan is working on it, and so far terrorism has been reduced significantly. It will be eventually eliminated and there is nothing to suggest that Pakistan has failed - it's the exact opposite.


''Islamist'' , a word so ambiguous, misused and ultimately meaningless that it turns already confusing situations into an undecipherable bunch of nonsense. But I'll get to the point as he's clearly implying that Pakistan should abandon Islam as a state ideology.

Abandoning Islam to fight extremism is like demolishing a wall to remove mold - just like the mold wins and gets to live in the rubble, the extremists end up winning the entire religion over and gaining more recruits and political strength.

Incorporating the countless good aspects of Islam is an infinitely more effective counter to extremism, and is more practical than trying to secularize a country where over 90% of the population is religious.

Maybe that's because the Afghan Taliban were invaded and destroyed by fifty countries and the Afghan Government is supposed to be handling what's left of them. Perhaps Haqqani sahab would've been happy if the Afghan Government didn't co-operate and the PA went along with its hot pursuit threats into Afghanistan.

Or, being the hypocritical parrot that he is, he wouldn't have been happy and would have instead continued with his defamation of Pakistan regardless of what anyone did.


That is an utterly retarded statement. Why should have Pakistan contributed soldiers to Korea or Vietnam? Pakistani support in Afghanistan was more than enough ''anti-communist'' contribution. If the US expected more, too bad but too late.

View attachment 216242
Okay, putting the hilarity of this idiocy aside,

earlier he was moaning about 'good terrorist and bad terrorist'. And now he's making a similar distinction, as if these wonderful ''secular insurgents'' are any better. These ''secular insurgents'' murdered twenty people just a while ago, and have been doing it on a regular basis for a while.

I can not even begin to criticize the idiotic reasoning behind this idiotic statement and its equally idiotic implication that secular insurgents are somehow not a problem or less of a problem and should not be dealt with using helicopters.

At most, the reasoning would be that a religious ideology is more dangerous than a nationalist one, but the families of the twenty murdered laborers would strongly disagree. And using helicopters to fight them wouldn't effect this aspect in any way.

I must admit.... I am becoming a fan of you

 

[Mutakalim]

On a side note, what does your avatar signifies. I am curious to know.

One thing. Hate for Pakistan and specially Muslims

An elected Pakistani Prime Minister.

There is another elected prime minister in our east. Hindu terrorist Modi

Yeah right lol

Yara Indian ha

 

[TankMan]

I don't know. But ever since Natan Sharansky was condemned by the Soviets to prison for a misleading headline I've always given authors the benefit of the doubt. (Furthermore, Sharansky's show trial embarrassed the Soviet gov't, which had trusted in the truth of the headline.)

Interesting enough. Mr.Haqqani can have the benefit of the doubt for that headline. As I said before, I've retracted my statement regarding the implication of this headline.

I'm amazed you can write that with a straight face.

I'm amazed as to why you'd think Pakistan was not serious about eliminating those who have harmed none other than Pakistan for the past decade. The more than 6000 soldiers who gave their lives were very serious and so were the Generals whose headquarters were attacked and colleagues were murdered.

Pakistan has always been serious - admittedly incompetent on occasions but definitely serious.

I think you've mixed up truth and want-to-be-truth here: the Chechens have long held to the credo that one can't be a man without killing a Russian (MiG Pilot, 1975) and I don't think Pakistan has ever provided proof of Indian support of Baluchi rebels (solitary confessions alone aren't evidence.)

Chechens having a credo has nothing to do with regards to the fact that they were used and supported by the US and neither does it change the other instances of the use of militant non-state groups I mentioned in my post. Even if you subtract the Chechen part, there are dozens of other examples I can give and my argument still stands.

It's an open secret that the Balochi rebels are supported by India. Pakistan has provided as much evidence as India has provided of the alleged Pakistani involvement in terrorism. I can't do anything if the former is sidelined while the latter is taken as gospel by certain people.

US officials have also acknowledged the aforementioned open secret.

No, H.H. and Shuja Nawaz described ISI and "freelancers" killing Kashmiris who strove for independence rather than union with Pakistan.

When did this alleged ''freelance'' killing happen?

I'm not a Muslim. To me, Islam is what people who claim to be Muslims do, in context.

Would you also consider the actions of Abdul Sattar Edhi, a man who also 'claims to be' Muslim, as representative of Islam?
I admit that people like him are a minority. But then so are people like Baghdadi. The majority just try to get on with their lives without harming anyone; then why is the second minority more representative of Islam than the first minority and majority combined?

Terrorists like ISIS and the Taliban wipe out or dominate peace-minded people from the territory they control. To combat their reality of Islam as violent and hateful you have to build another reality.

No sane person would take the claims of mass-murderers as 'reality'.
To combat their perception of Islam as violent and hateful all we need to do is follow our perception of Islam, which is the exact opposite of theirs.

Pakistan has not done a good job of it

That is something we can agree on.

And to promote this for real do you not have to give up the position that anyone who decries failings in such is automatically guilty of treason?

There is no such position in Pakistan. Decrying failings is what happens 24/7 on Pakistani media; millions watch it, and no one ever said decrying failings made someone ''guilty of treason''.

The fact that angry people on the internet are calling it that does not make it an official policy.

If you're talking about Islam, there is no such position in Islam either. There is no restriction on criticizing Muslims' actions, even those done in the name of Islam.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

People like Haqqani are irrelevant now.US-Pak militarily relations are back on track after operation against the militants in NW and 1 week of Gen. Raheel visit to US Centcom last yr in Nov. Pak-Afghan relations under Ghani are improving too and US finally offering us one of their best helicopters to Pak with a huge cache of hell fire missiles just depicts the growing cooperation between both the countries. Also when China is pumping billions into Pakistan with strategic gains via Gwadar Port, US is not in a position to ignore Pakistan anymore.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

Hussain Haqqani always considered himself to be very smart and wanted more important positions in the government. Haqqani created his own political enemies by his haughty attitude and got frustrated when his political rivals blocked him. Then he sent a memo to US Army to intervene in Pakistan to stop military takeover and thus committed treason.Now he has no future in Pakistan so he writes these kinds of articles.

 

[Super Falcon]

Here everyone forget we did mistake we p pa I'd price for it now it's even in those mistakes USA at that time was big supporter for us in some mistake in few other mistakes USA did not stopped us at that time we sacrificed thousands of death of br tea be soldiers and common citizens b other country seen it in history of terrorism we ed lost 2 billion us in war against terror if USA given us money they took their work from Pakistan now itseems even

 

[SecularNationalist]

Why his butt is hurting ?

As i said before no one in the world respects Indians. USA condemns Lakhvis release but then sells $1 billion worth of equipment to Pakistan…. smh… beztii for indians… Why would anyone respect Indians when they don't even respect themselves?

And for getting insulted first you need to have a respect

 

[Super Falcon]

This man Haqani and other man who was ambassador in UK of pak forgotten his name he was in zardark got full corrupt h ha no them till death

 

[CHI RULES]

These corrupt people like Haqanni are only puppets, when he was ambassidor in USA he was actually safeguarding interests of USA. Sad thing is even our politicians have their close family members in USA and England. We as a nation are caught in web, like Haqqni was allowed to ran away to USA and now spreading shit against Pak freely. Our own country is full of such puppets, we as a nation should stand against them. Even there are large number of Pakistanis in USA they should raise their voices against Haqani and press him to surrender before Pak authorities.

People who try to rebel against their master they got killed like rats by them like Ramzi Yousaf.

 

[xyxmt]

look at this bhungi looking person, suddenly he becomes "WE"....how many white Americans laughed at this statement. Well Mr Bhungi when White man thinks they are answerable to you then they will but until than (maybe in 2080) please keep your high hopes.

 

[desimorty]

I think the reason why he doesn't agree with this is because, America through aid is aiding non the non democratic system in Pakistan. Thats the argument judging from what I hear. No consider this, Americas track record of supporting democracies is not that great.
Pakistan with aid, is basically being encouraged to side line REAL democracy. Although who really wants a PM position in Pakistan? Its not far fetched to believe that the military decides Pakistanis foreign policy which would be alight but they also decide its internal policy and debates.
Pakistans military, quoted by Gulini back when he was still serving, is to promote Islami in Pakistan. Forgot the udru word for it but that says a lot about policy.
Why this policy? Well because despite the war on terror, these armed groups, under Mullas umbrella citing the Quran for any justification of violence have more power that the majority who want prosperity, development and peace.
So who can protest when TTP has the guns and suicide bombers? Pakistans situation isn't as bad, but varies region to cities and villages but the war is on.

Other problem, is less known. ISI infiltrated or created organizations like Taliban, and AQ and LeT. Problem is these organizations also passed their ideology within ranks of ISI and Army. How do you fight the poison inside? Whos the enemy?

 

[Solomon2]

I'm amazed as to why you'd think Pakistan was not serious about eliminating those who have harmed none other than Pakistan for the past decade. The more than 6000 soldiers who gave their lives were very serious and so were the Generals whose headquarters were attacked and colleagues were murdered.

Because I think the emphasis - at least until the latest COAS took over - was on control or containment.

Chechens having a credo has nothing to do with regards to the fact that they were used and supported by the US -

You don't provide any evidence. Everyone has the right to their own opinion but not their own facts.

US officials have also acknowledged the aforementioned open secret.

Ha. The BBC has the absolute worst headline policy: they're allowed to lie in the headlines as long as there's some sort of disclaimer in the article itself.

When did this alleged ''freelance'' killing happen?

Shuja Nawaz quotes General Qazi as describing the finding the Kashmir jihad had been "privatized" when he took over the ISI in 1993. (page 468, Crossed Swords.)

Would you also consider the actions of Abdul Sattar Edhi, a man who also 'claims to be' Muslim, as representative of Islam?

Sure. Both he and Hafiz Saeed compete when it comes to ambulance service. Kind of a microcosm of Pakistan's identity crisis right there, yes?

tbc..

 

[Indus Falcon]

Why his butt is hurting ?


And for getting insulted first you need to have a respect

Bayzate oski hoti hai jiski koi izat hoe. I see what you did there

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Solomon2

I don't think Pakistan has ever provided proof of Indian support of Baluchi rebels (solitary confessions alone aren't evidence.)

In these situations it is very rare for any country to have proof in the legal sense of the word. Intelligence relies on joining dots and speculation and would never pass muster with any judge because it would fail the 'proof beyond reasonable doubt'. It is for this very reason that US set up the Guantanamo Bay facility so that 'non combatents' could be kept without having to worry about things like 'proof' or 'evidence'.

So please stop imposing standards or expectations on Pakistan that nobody else follows. I read how UK PM Margaret Thatcher frustrated with IRA bombing of UK mainland giving go ahead to British intelligence to take out a IRA team in Gibralter. The British are big on law and rule of law but the reality was they rarely had sufficient proof to arrest and charge IRA members although British Intel knew who the IRA members were.

The only way you will get proof is if the other side is bungling, inept or incompetant which is rare when states are involved. I have no proof that India is involved or proof that India is not involved, however given the India/Pak 'cold war' I have no doubt that India will be doing everything possible to undermine Pakistan and if India is not doing that then it's security agencies are failing in their duty.

Since Balochistan situation is ripe for any third party to cause problem to Pakistan I have no doubt that India is involed. There is also the question as to how you define 'involvement'. OBL was involved in 9/11 but we know he was not the planner, he was not the financier, he was not the recruiter. In other words if he had gone to court it would been very difficult to tie him to 9/11 as being directly responsible. However we all know he was responsible because he gave the inspiration and impetus and everything was done under his shadow even if he never left his fingerprints on anything.

In the same way I doubt if India provides manpower or weapons directly stamped 'Made in India'. However there are groups in Afghanistan like NA that are pitched against Pakistan. India is deeply involved with those groups and I have no doubt that those groups do help out BLA in terms of providing sanctuary, finance and weapons.

This whole thing about Pakistan and it's support of certain groups is nothing remarkable. The US has and is doing it, Isreal has and is doing it, Iran does it, Pakistan does it. There is no good or bad guy in this game. It is all about each pushing their agenda or their own percieved interests. I think it would help everybody to bear that in mind. We do however have lots of overgrown children here who regard geopolitics as a school playing field of mates and bad guys with closely nursed hatreds.

I will tell you another thing. Despite the madness and anti Semitism you see in Pakistan some of which unfortunatly can be even seen in these forums at higher levels of Pak policy Isreal is not regarded as a threat. I also feel Isreal is aware that Pak is not a threat to Isreal. I think at the highest levels of both states there is almost a latent understanding or a non officially aknowledged understanding between both that they will not regard each other as enemies.

I say this because Isreal has a hypersensitivity to it's safety. Any ME country wanting to gather two radioactive nails gets bombed or through USA sanctioned. Yet here is Pakistan which not only has developed a nuclear weapons but now is increasing it stockpile faster than any other country. I have read many reports that cite by 2025 Pak will have nuclear stockpile greater then UK and close to matching France. In addition the latest ballistic missiles are capable of hitting Tel Aviv. I did a distance measure and from Balochistan, Pakistan Tel aviv falls just over 1,500 miles within range of the Shaheen missile.

Despite this Tel aviv seems to be quite relaxed. In addition US and the West generally seem to be relaxed. This despite the fact that every day there are sensationalist stories about Pakistan. This tells me there has to be some understanding. I feel the reason is at upper echelons of Pak security establishment there are sane minds and they are only focussed on one place and this is known in Washington, London and Tel Aviv. Pak cross hairs are on India.

Having said this it is a pity that most of Pakistan population has become second rate Arabs who act more Arabs then the Arabs themselves. This is tragic. This is indicative of a immature population who have drank too much mullah cola and not developed enough common sense. I would like Pakistan to recognize Isreal and be at peace with your country. We have no beef with your country. What we need to do is focuss on India. We have our hands full with a country that is seven times larger then us in population. You being small should know what it feels like living in a huge swamp of enemies. Ditto Pakistan.

Just like isreal Pak will do what it can being the smaller country to secure it's national interest. It is no good US or anybody else telling Pak what it's interest. You don't go to Palestinians to ask what Isreal's interest is. Well in the same way do not expect Pakistan to get advice from India or Indophiles from across the world.

And all countries have traitors, We have HH. You had Mordecai Vanunu. You grabbed, drugged, dragged your traitor, Mordecai to Isreal and then let him enjoy Isreali prison hospitality.. Maybe ISI need to do the same thing to HH and let him cool down in Adiala Jail.