Who's right, Israel or Palestine?

[nirreich]

Your words are clearly saying that Israel was created due to absence of justice.
And about the last few lines, no, actually there were many other proposals for other certain areas, for example the Uganda proposal.
About the Jews population, no, the Jews were never such a majority in Palestine before WW1! The wave of immigrants made you that much, nothing more.

Terrorists? What terrorists? Has it come now that anyone who is defending their land is terrorist? So what should they do, see the Palestinian land be stolen by endless settlements and their people being killed and shut up?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not with killing civilians or children AT ALL, I'm just asking you to tell me what Palestinians should do, when they see themselves losing their lands by settlers and the creation of a Palestinian state becoming more and more impossible.
For your information, if Israel is fighting " terrorists " of Hamas, who exist only in Gaza, why do Israelis every now and then arrest people in the West Bank?
Also, this amazing country you're speaking about, has discrimination. Al Aqsa Mosque! Nobody ever replied to my question about it. Why shall the Israelis break into Al Aqsa mosque every now and then? What gives them the right to? They break into it under the escort of Israeli security!
About those " generous " offers, do you even know Israel's conditions for the establishment of a Palestinian state? They want it demilitarized ( yeah, as if Israel is no threat to Palestine ), they want control over Palestinian air space, control over all entering and going out people and cargo, control over radio, tv... and other conditions that make Palestine effectively not a state.
What remarkable restraint? Does remarkable restraint represent to you bombing hospitals and homes? Bombing areas where those " terrorists " are known not to exist in?!
Why doesn't anybody remember that Israel is LEGALLY an occupier!? They occupy West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golan heights and Sheba farms. Why doesn't anybody say something about that?

Hopefully, for the last time...

Justice is in the perspective of the observer. The Jews has justifications to have their own independent country like other world nations. The only place plausible is their historic homeland, the only they yearned to go back and the only place they were ever independent. The Jews were prosecuted and treated like second class citizens all over the world for two millennia, and only recently third of the were murdered in the biggest industrial genocide ever, what is more just than to give them their own country where they want to live?

All the other proposals were rejected by the Zionist movement, the wanted to go back only to the land of Israel.

The Jews were a majority in Jerusalem at least since the 19th century, why arguing with reality. They were 20% of the population in 1920.

Terrorism is killing innocent civilians, that is what the Palestinian terror gangs have done, justifying it is even worst. There is a lot the Palestinian can do and should do before start killing women and children. BTW,

Israel operates in the West Bank against Hamas infrastructure, without it who you think will rule this area? Fatah?

Al Aqsa mosque is quite safe, I do not where do you get your information about constant breaking in. Mind you the temple mount is under Israel authority and its security forces are entitled to take measures necessary to impose order, this is not an ex-territory.

Israel support the two state solution and offered the Palestinian their own independent state time and time again. of course this state will be under restrictions: in the last 100 years the Palestinians proved to be traitorous and unreliable, they used all terror means available to them to hurt Israel (from kidnapping planes, to terror squad coming form the sea to suicide bombing to rockets firing on Israel's civilian population), they glorify baby killers and bus exploders, they are still poised to eliminate Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, and rules out the legitimacy of the existence of Israel. In this conditions and in light of the geographical invulnerability of Israel it will be foolish of Israel to do anything else than prevent the Palestinians from getting a better leverage to attack Israel again and again.

The Palestinians could have get a completely unrestricted independent state in the 1967 borders before 1967, Jordan and Egypt controlled these territories and Israel could not stop them from establishing a free Palestinian state. Only when they had the chance of doing that, the Palestinians and the Arabs wanted all of Israel too, so they missed their chance lost the 1967 war, turned to barbaric terrorism and failed, and now they should be happy to get what they can.

As for all the territories you mentioned (except of Shabha which according to UN decisions Israel is not obliged to give back to Lebanon), it is customary in international relations that the winning side keeps the territories it got while the losing side ask for peace and is happy to get back what it can. You country received back from Israel the entire Sinai which was conquer by Israel in 1967, tell your friend, Syria, to accept the same peace agreement Egypt has with Israel and we will be happy to give them the Golan Hights back. As for the West Bank and Gaza, who do you want we return them to? Jordan's and Egypt's rule there was never recognised by anyone.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

admiring Israel should not have any say on Palestine, yes, but Palestine has never given any reason to us to show our support.

Many members from across the border would disagree, but Palestine chose the path of violence, they are the one's who supported war and support terrorist organisations which have been targeting school & children in their attacks against Israel. Palestine having repeatedly declined peace offers, their supported militant organisations continuously wanting not peace with Israel or 2 state solution, rather anhilation of Israel.

For me personally, supporting such an entity is same as supporting the terrorists/separatists/extremists in Kashmir.

i am sorry but you haven't given me the reason for Indians dissing palestine here . what problems do we Indians have directly with them ? do we have pakistan and China as enough problems or do you want to see the rest of the muslim world turn against us as well ?

I am not talking about Palestinian terrorists but i am talking about common Palestinians who have been displaced from their land . what have they done to receive such ire from us ?. Remember we have had good relations with the arab world as well throughout.

And you say that Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution but if Israelis want it then why do they continue building illegal sttlements in the disputed areas when even their own allies and UN tell them not to .

Are these Israeli actions not making a solution more difficult to arrive at along with Palestinian terrorists ?

I absolutely understand it when Indian say that Israel has a right to exist . Yes it does , but for Indians to say what is Palestine ? It should not exist just sickens me and disgusts me.What if tomorrow arabs start saying that Kashmir belongs to only muslims and that the hindus who got displaced had no right to exist there anyway even though arabs have nothing to do with Kashmir conflict ? would piss us off wouldn't it ? Try to make friends and be pleasant and make less enemies . that is all that i will say.

i am sorry , if there are any arabs particularly palestinians viewing this thread , I apologise on behalf of some of my indian brothers here , most Indians want to see Israel and Palestine exist side by side peacefully and without bothering each other .That is also the official position of the Indian government .

There are too many right wing fanboy indians on this website who don't represent all of us at all .

 

[jatt+gutts]

i am sorry but you haven't given me the reason for Indians dissing palestine here . what problems do we Indians have directly with them ? do we have pakistan and China as enough problems or do you want to see the rest of the muslim world turn against us as well ?

I am not talking about Palestinian terrorists but i am talking about common Palestinians who have been displaced from their land . what have they done to receive such ire from us ?. Remember we have had good relations with the arab world as well throughout.

And you say that Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution but if Israelis want it then why do they continue building illegal sttlements in the disputed areas when even their own allies and UN tell them not to .

Are these Israeli actions not making a solution more difficult to arrive at along with Palestinian terrorists ?

I absolutely understand it when Indian say that Israel has a right to exist . Yes it does , but for Indians to say what is Palestine ? It should not exist just sickens me and disgusts me.What if tomorrow arabs start saying that Kashmir belongs to only muslims and that the hindus who got displaced had no right to exist there anyway even though arabs have nothing to do with Kashmir conflict ? would piss us off wouldn't it ? Try to make friends and be pleasant and make less enemies . that is all that i will say.

i am sorry , if there are any arabs particularly palestinians viewing this thread , I apologise on behalf of some of my indian brothers here , most Indians want to see Israel and Palestine exist side by side peacefully and without bothering each other .That is also the official position of the Indian government .

There are too many right wing fanboy indians on this website who don't represent all of us at all .

india didnt recognised israel for so long even while many arabs state had diplomatic relation with it. then arabs backstabed us by supporting pakistan. no matter whos right or wrong arabs will always support pakistani for being muslim. now israel has helped us combatting islamic terrorism of pakistan. is there any place in world where there are muslims and no terrorism. when muslims belive in umma brotherhood we hould believe in non muslim brotherhood or at leat comradrie. this is the reason indians views have changed.

 

[PteX]

i am sorry but you haven't given me the reason for Indians dissing palestine here . what problems do we Indians have directly with them ? do we have pakistan and China as enough problems or do you want to see the rest of the muslim world turn against us as well ?

I am not talking about Palestinian terrorists but i am talking about common Palestinians who have been displaced from their land . what have they done to receive such ire from us ?. Remember we have had good relations with the arab world as well throughout.

And you say that Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution but if Israelis want it then why do they continue building illegal sttlements in the disputed areas when even their own allies and UN tell them not to .

Are these Israeli actions not making a solution more difficult to arrive at along with Palestinian terrorists ?

I absolutely understand it when Indian say that Israel has a right to exist . Yes it does , but for Indians to say what is Palestine ? It should not exist just sickens me and disgusts me.What if tomorrow arabs start saying that Kashmir belongs to only muslims and that the hindus who got displaced had no right to exist there anyway even though arabs have nothing to do with Kashmir conflict ? would piss us off wouldn't it ? Try to make friends and be pleasant and make less enemies . that is all that i will say.

i am sorry , if there are any arabs particularly palestinians viewing this thread , I apologise on behalf of some of my indian brothers here , most Indians want to see Israel and Palestine exist side by side peacefully and without bothering each other .That is also the official position of the Indian government .

There are too many right wing fanboy indians on this website who don't represent all of us at all .

By supporting the Palestinians, you are supporting an enemy of your friend. This is not what friends do, as i do not support the Kashmiris who want their own land when India is against it.

Loyalty and friendship are not one sided.
You seem to be confused who your friends are and who your enemies are. If you believe you won't be sold out by the Arabs you are so eager to support, you are mistaken.

 

[Skorpian]

Hopefully, for the last time...

Justice is in the perspective of the observer. The Jews has justifications to have their own independent country like other world nations. The only place plausible is their historic homeland, the only they yearned to go back and the only place they were ever independent. The Jews were prosecuted and treated like second class citizens all over the world for two millennia, and only recently third of the were murdered in the biggest industrial genocide ever, what is more just than to give them their own country where they want to live?

All the other proposals were rejected by the Zionist movement, the wanted to go back only to the land of Israel.

The Jews were a majority in Jerusalem at least since the 19th century, why arguing with reality. They were 20% of the population in 1920.

Terrorism is killing innocent civilians, that is what the Palestinian terror gangs have done, justifying it is even worst. There is a lot the Palestinian can do and should do before start killing women and children. BTW,

Israel operates in the West Bank against Hamas infrastructure, without it who you think will rule this area? Fatah?

Al Aqsa mosque is quite safe, I do not where do you get your information about constant breaking in. Mind you the temple mount is under Israel authority and its security forces are entitled to take measures necessary to impose order, this is not an ex-territory.

Israel support the two state solution and offered the Palestinian their own independent state time and time again. of course this state will be under restrictions: in the last 100 years the Palestinians proved to be traitorous and unreliable, they used all terror means available to them to hurt Israel (from kidnapping planes, to terror squad coming form the sea to suicide bombing to rockets firing on Israel's civilian population), they glorify baby killers and bus exploders, they are still poised to eliminate Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, and rules out the legitimacy of the existence of Israel. In this conditions and in light of the geographical invulnerability of Israel it will be foolish of Israel to do anything else than prevent the Palestinians from getting a better leverage to attack Israel again and again.

The Palestinians could have get a completely unrestricted independent state in the 1967 borders before 1967, Jordan and Egypt controlled these territories and Israel could not stop them from establishing a free Palestinian state. Only when they had the chance of doing that, the Palestinians and the Arabs wanted all of Israel too, so they missed their chance lost the 1967 war, turned to barbaric terrorism and failed, and now they should be happy to get what they can.

As for all the territories you mentioned (except of Shabha which according to UN decisions Israel is not obliged to give back to Lebanon), it is customary in international relations that the winning side keeps the territories it got while the losing side ask for peace and is happy to get back what it can. You country received back from Israel the entire Sinai which was conquer by Israel in 1967, tell your friend, Syria, to accept the same peace agreement Egypt has with Israel and we will be happy to give them the Golan Hights back. As for the West Bank and Gaza, who do you want we return them to? Jordan's and Egypt's rule there was never recognised by anyone.

Lands aren't distributed by religion. If Jews used to live in Palestine long time ago, that still doesn't give the right to Israelis to go there and establish your homeland. Not a single religious group can establish a country somewhere in the world because people of the same religion used to live in that area.
We know Jews were prosecuted, but that doesn't give the Jews the right to establish their homeland anywhere on Earth. Why didn't you take land from those who prosecuted you instead? Why didn't you establish your homeland by taking areas of Germany
Al Aqsa mosque is broken into every now and then, you can find them on news websites, and I have a video but I don't know where it is.
About the part of Palestinian terrorism against Israel,what is Israel doing with Palestinian innocent civilians, women and children? Tickling them in the tummy?
Israel always refuses the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't say that the state now must be with restrictions, the Israeli threat to Palestine is no smaller than the Palestinian state to Israel, in fact, the Israeli threat is much bigger.
If Israel really accepts the two-state solution, why do they continue expanding the settlements? Day after day, the settlements increase and increase, in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

By supporting the Palestinians, you are supporting an enemy of your friend. This is not what friends do, as i do not support the Kashmiris who want their own land when India is against it.

Loyalty and friendship are not one sided.
You seem to be confused who your friends are and who your enemies are. If you believe you won't be sold out by the Arabs you are so eager to support, you are mistaken.

I don't believe that common Palestinians are Israel's enemy . The terrorists are your enemy and I am staunchly against them . Murder them , tear them apart . Do what you want . But i will differentiate between Common palestinians and the terrorists unlike most Indians here .

 

[PteX]

I don't believe that common Palestinians are Israel's enemy . The terrorists are your enemy and I am staunchly against them . Murder them , tear them apart . Do what you want . But i will differentiate between Common palestinians and the terrorists unlike most Indians here .

The common Palestinians as you call them, refuse to acknowledge Israel as the Jewish nation and refuse to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish nation. If you are not aware, Jerusalem is the heart of Judaism and the holiest city in Judaism.

They refuse to even let children accept the existence of Israel and refuse to allow them to mingle with Israelis, punish those liberals who do and glorify the terrorists that killed thousands of Israeli women and children.

Allow me to repeat: The President and leader of the Palestinians in the West Bank glorifies suicide bombers, and names streets in their honor.

 

[ZABASHO]

i am sorry , if there are any arabs particularly palestinians viewing this thread , I apologise on behalf of some of my indian brothers here

I'm sorry but I wanna initiate my reply to your post by first addressing this one of the dumbest and most idiotic and insane and apologetic statement I've heard on PDF. You wanna bend over backwards and kiss arab a$$ for what reason? At most India & Arabs have neutral relations, that too would be stretching it. Arabs dislike for India/Indians not withstanding you would rather have sorry dumb kiss as$ery for what reason? Arabs have through the test of time supported Pakistani stance on Kashmir & Kashmiri "freedom struggle". They have time and again materialistically supported Pakistan in its wars against India, which in itself should've be considered an act of aggression against India by the arabs, but you rather lick their behinds, it doesn't get more pathetic than this. Their attitude towards poor Indian migrant workers is inhumane at best, and you wish to apologise to them for your "Indian brothers". To hell with that, its "brothers" like you thats precisely what we as Indians don't need.


Secondly, what Ptex has said, loyalty and friendship are not one sided, if you consider Israel a friend, which it has proven to be, time and again, and I think you do consider them as one, should be reason enough. Yes, India's own interests come first, but second would be of its allies not some pathetic war monger terrorist community/society/nation.


Third, I've said in earlier posts too, that we, just like even Israelis themselves, support a 2 state solution, but at present it is not possible, without compromising on Israel's own security. If you think Israel should do that, relate it to Siachen, should India do the same? Sacrifice its current position in SIachen, which gives an advantage to India to address its real security needs without ratifying its own security position?

And finally, me personally like many supporters of Israel, have got nothing against the common Palestinians, but then again there are many in Palestine who have been brainwashed in thinking of Israel as their mortal enemy.

We want to make friends, we want no enemies, but how can you be friends with people who would rather support your enemies when the push comes to shove.

does this sound familiar? I think India has some experience in this:
Hamas Talks Peace and Declares War - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

PA Ambassador to India, Adli Sadeq:
"[Israel] never had any shred of a right to exist" IMRA - Thursday, December 1, 2011 PMW Bulletin: PA official: [Israel] never had any shred of a right to exist

:EDIT: -Add:

remember the 2000 Ramallah lynching? They were not carried out by trained combatants but "common Palestinian"

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

I'm sorry but I wanna initiate my reply to your post by first addressing this one of the dumbest and most idiotic and insane and apologetic statement I've heard on PDF. You wanna bend over backwards and kiss arab a$$ for what reason? At most India & Arabs have neutral relations, that too would be stretching it. Arabs dislike for India/Indians not withstanding you would rather have sorry dumb kiss as$ery for what reason? Arabs have through the test of time supported Pakistani stance on Kashmir & Kashmiri "freedom struggle". They have time and again materialistically supported Pakistan in its wars against India, which in itself should've be considered an act of aggression against India by the arabs, but you rather lick their behinds, it doesn't get more pathetic than this. Their attitude towards poor Indian migrant workers is inhumane at best, and you wish to apologise to them for your "Indian brothers". To hell with that, its "brothers" like you thats precisely what we as Indians don't need.


Secondly, what Ptex has said, loyalty and friendship are not one sided, if you consider Israel a friend, which it has proven to be, time and again, and I think you do consider them as one, should be reason enough. Yes, India's own interests come first, but second would be of its allies not some pathetic war monger terrorist community/society/nation.


Third, I've said in earlier posts too, that we, just like even Israelis themselves, support a 2 state solution, but at present it is not possible, without compromising on Israel's own security. If you think Israel should do that, relate it to Siachen, should India do the same? Sacrifice its current position in SIachen, which gives an advantage to India to address its real security needs without ratifying its own security position?

And finally, me personally like many supporters of Israel, have got nothing against the common Palestinians, but then again there are many in Palestine who have been brainwashed in thinking of Israel as their mortal enemy.

We want to make friends, we want no enemies, but how can you be friends with people who would rather support your enemies when the push comes to shove.

does this sound familiar? I think India has some experience in this:
Hamas Talks Peace and Declares War - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

PA Ambassador to India, Adli Sadeq:
"[Israel] never had any shred of a right to exist" IMRA - Thursday, December 1, 2011 PMW Bulletin: PA official: [Israel] never had any shred of a right to exist

:EDIT: -Add:

remember the 2000 Ramallah lynching? They were not carried out by trained combatants but "common Palestinian"

Your definition of a$$ kissing obviously is different from mine . not calling all the palestinians terrorists and supporting their right to exist peacefully along with Israel is not A$$ kissing according to my definition .

And i would request you to not use such language again just because me and you are not on the same page on some issue . I get what you say but my point of view says that beyond supporting Israel's right to exist we should not diss the Palestinians and make an enemy out of the Arabs .Not a very wise thing to do . As far i know except for providing some lip service to Kashmiri cause of Pakistanis Arabs haven't done much at all concretely which becomes a useless customary practice. Even here on this forum I dont see Arab members Supporting Pakistan over india on Kashmir . for the most part they take a neutral stand . However if you know something i don't then please kindly bring it to my notice.

We can agree to disagree on some points but please don't use that kind of language again. With all due respect , there is a limit to my patience .Learn to respect others opinion as well .

The common Palestinians as you call them, refuse to acknowledge Israel as the Jewish nation and refuse to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish nation. If you are not aware, Jerusalem is the heart of Judaism and the holiest city in Judaism.

They refuse to even let children accept the existence of Israel and refuse to allow them to mingle with Israelis, punish those liberals who do and glorify the terrorists that killed thousands of Israeli women and children.

Allow me to repeat: The President and leader of the Palestinians in the West Bank glorifies suicide bombers, and names streets in their honor.

Fine , point taken . But could you please tell me why Israel continues to build settlements when the UN and other Israeli allies contiue to ask them to stop . Does it not make the two state solution difficult and complicate things further ?

 

[nirreich]

Lands aren't distributed by religion. If Jews used to live in Palestine long time ago, that still doesn't give the right to Israelis to go there and establish your homeland. Not a single religious group can establish a country somewhere in the world because people of the same religion used to live in that area.
We know Jews were prosecuted, but that doesn't give the Jews the right to establish their homeland anywhere on Earth. Why didn't you take land from those who prosecuted you instead? Why didn't you establish your homeland by taking areas of Germany
Al Aqsa mosque is broken into every now and then, you can find them on news websites, and I have a video but I don't know where it is.
About the part of Palestinian terrorism against Israel,what is Israel doing with Palestinian innocent civilians, women and children? Tickling them in the tummy?
Israel always refuses the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't say that the state now must be with restrictions, the Israeli threat to Palestine is no smaller than the Palestinian state to Israel, in fact, the Israeli threat is much bigger.
If Israel really accepts the two-state solution, why do they continue expanding the settlements? Day after day, the settlements increase and increase, in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The Jewish people are a nation, they are not defined only be religious. The Jewish people needs their own country where they will not be prosecuted, and the only place for that is in the Jewish historic homeland where the only independent entity ever was a Jewish one.

Al Aqsa mosque is protected by Israel and it will be respected as long as Israel has the authority. As I said Al Aqsa is not an ex-territory and Israel's security forces have the full right to maintain the order and prevent the Palestinian mob to take advantage of this holy place in order to attack policemen and Jewish prayer in the old city.

You cannot justify Palestinian terrorism by any way and if you do then its is a double hypocrisy to condemn the other side which according to you use the same methods. However, contrary to the Palestinians Israel has no policy and never will target innocent Palestinian people.

As I said the official policy of Israel is the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, why keep arguing? The Settlements are not a problem like they were not a problem when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

As for the Israeli threat to the Palestinians, just imagine what the Palestinians would do to Israel if the power balance was the opposite - you can now realise the extent of Israel's restraint. If Israel wants, it can squash and oppress them to such degree that they will be longing for their current conditions. Instead, Israel tried its best to reach a permanent agreement with the Palestinians which Includes an independent Palestinian state.

You talk so much about occupation and Palestinian suffering, but I notice you ignore completely the Egyptian and Jordanian occupation of the same territories for 19 years! Egypt, you country, held to these territories, no one recognised its occupation, and Egypt constantly refused to hand it over to her Palestinians brothers to establish an independent state. Egypt was forced out of Gaza twice (1956 and 1967) by the Israeli Army, but if not for the 1967 war Egypt would still occupy Gaza. Please explain why you demand Israel higher standards than your own country, why Egypt and Jordan did not established a free Palestinian state when they had the chance and now they criticise Israel for the same thing they refused to do constantly.

 

[lem34]

Silly question. Of course Zionists are wrong. Palestinians are right

 

[nirreich]

Silly question. Of course Zionists are wrong. Palestinians are right

Yet, you answer is even sillier.

 

[clmeta]

Hypothetical question. Suppose Israel exists for 500 years.
They can then say this land does not belong to Palestinians just because they lived here centuries ago.

 

[Uchiha]

Hypothetical question. Suppose Israel exists for 500 years.
They can then say this land does not belong to Palestinians just because they lived here centuries ago.

But for these 500years, palestenians wont become bankers around europe, like the jews had in the past, instead theyd be fighting

 

[lem34]

Hypothetical question. Suppose Israel exists for 500 years.
They can then say this land does not belong to Palestinians just because they lived here centuries ago.

Dont worry they wont have it that long.