Who wants peace, India or Pakistan?

[InDIaN BeAst]

You cannot conclude this from google trends
this issue is too complex to be decided by google algorithms

 

[newman]

Stereotype much.

Stereotypes are not created out of a director's script, there is some truth to them. Even the worst stereotype is an exaggeration of fact.

There may be an intelligentsia in Pakistan- Nayyar, Hoodbhoy etc. but my point is that it is a diminishing minority increasingly at risk from the extreme elements within pak itself.

The voice on the streets, the immense rallies attracted by let chief hms to their hate speeches against india mean that seeds of hatred have been planted in their hearts by a system (the institution of education) and that finds a calling in the words of rabid extremists.

What in your opinion fuels the world opinion of pak? Or do you think they are all out to frame pak for a more ulterior motive?

 

[T-Faz]

Nehru's query remained unanswered for long. Why don't you attempt to answer the question.

Defense against whom?

China.

We all know what happened next. Don't we?

Yup, weak leader like Shashtri could not achieve what was intended even to a limited extent.

 

[T-Faz]

Yea, Pakistan should not have armed and supported the Pathan tribals.

See where I am going with this?

If we didn't send in the Pathans, India would have done what it did with Hyderabad.

 

[T-Faz]

Stereotypes are not created out of a director's script, there is some truth to them. Even the worst stereotype is an exaggeration of fact.

There may be an intelligentsia in Pakistan- Nayyar, Hoodbhoy etc. but my point is that it is a diminishing minority increasingly at risk from the extreme elements within pak itself.

The voice on the streets, the immense rallies attracted by let chief hms to their hate speeches against india mean that seeds of hatred have been planted in their hearts by a system (the institution of education) and that finds a calling in the words of rabid extremists.

What in your opinion fuels the world opinion of pak? Or do you think they are all out to frame pak for a more ulterior motive?

Perhaps you should take your own advice and listen to your intelligentsia such as Arundhuti Roy and Pankaj Mishra.

Your views follow a narrow scope, your penchant for underpining all on the people of one nation is baffling.

Anyone can gather a following, your own hate inciters such as Bal Thackerey have an audience too but I won't label all Indians to be of the same mindset.

That is the clear difference between you and I.

 

[toxic_pus]

China.

Why?

Was China threatening Pakistan and India in 1959? How so?

Yup, weak leader like Shashtri could not achieve what was intended even to a limited extent.

Remind me please, which part of Kashmir did Pakistan take away from this weak leader?

 

[newman]

difference between you and I.

Dont degrade my arguments to a you vs me - who is narrowing the scope? You decide.

There is definitely something wrong with the institutions of pak. The difference b/w what could have been and what is, is measurable in light years. You can blame the people or the rulers or your neighbors, but fact is unless that institutionalised wrong is not rolled back there can be no peace b/w india and pak. it is always countdown to the next war.

 

[toxic_pus]

If we didn't send in the Pathans, India would have done what it did with Hyderabad.

Hyderabad happened in 1948.

Try again.

 

[T-Faz]

Why?

Was China threatening Pakistan and India in 1959? How so?

This was due to the fact that Pakistan was highly anti communist, US said that China will be a common enemy to both India and Pakistan. Nehru blabbered no and said he will not sign this treaty with Pakistan as 'Hindi'Chini bhai bhai', he got a fitting reply from China.

Washington flatly disagreed, insisting that Red China was the main enemy of both India and Pakistan.

Remind me please, which part of Kashmir did Pakistan take away from this weak leader?

No we gifted some part to China after Shashtri could not work things out as he was weak.

 

[T-Faz]

Dont degrade my arguments to a you vs me - who is narrowing the scope? You decide.

There is definitely something wrong with the institutions of pak. The difference b/w what could have been and what is, is measurable in light years. You can blame the people or the rulers or your neighbors, but fact is unless that institutionalised wrong is not rolled back there can be no peace b/w india and pak. it is always countdown to the next war.

I am very much against our establichment, I have oft proclaimed that it reversed all our progress from late 70's and onwards. Pakistan is not what it was envisioned to be becuase of the people in charge and surely we can achieve much but are limited by the establishment.

You have jumbled a number of things here, we were discussing school text books to which I have asked you to visit Pakistan and observe for yourself.

There is a problem in our country and it has to be addressed, I am aware of that but what is equally true is that more and more are questioning the state like never before.

 

[T-Faz]

Hyderabad happened in 1948.

Try again.

Yup, read this.

HYDERABAD: The Holdout
Monday, Aug. 30, 1948


From Delhi, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, the tough Minister for States Affairs, has hurled a challenge at the Nizam: "Accede or die."Even peace-talking Premier Jawaharlal Nehru threatened Hyderabad. With contempt he said: "It is a completely wrong notion to talk of war with Hyderabad ... If there are to be wars they must be with free countries. But ... if and when it is considered necessary we shall have military operations against Hyderabad."

HYDERABAD: The Holdout - TIME

 

[newman]

I am very much against our establichment, I have oft proclaimed that it reversed all our progress from late 70's and onwards. Pakistan is not what it was envisioned to be becuase of the people in charge and surely we can achieve much but are limited by the establishment.

Well. QED! And may your tribe grow.

You have jumbled a number of things here, we were discussing school text books to which I have asked you to visit Pakistan and observe for yourself.

That is an instrument that the same institution of state has used to contort minds. This may not be a problem for lets say CBSE-board equivalents or convent educated pakistanis, but for the kasabs' that pakistan is rearing.. how do you rinse their minds?

There is a problem in our country and it has to be addressed, I am aware of that but what is equally true is that more and more are questioning the state like never before.

If things are moving as you say then why is there no mitigation of the hate propaganda out of pak? why does pak drag its feet on 26/11 trial when suspects are handed over to the US over ruling all judicial red tapism? till such time as pak fauj that pulls strings in the power corridors of isl does not play the peace pipe- there is no hope.

Any reasons you feel the interests of the mi complex in pak will re-align along a u-turn going forward?

 

[Reaper What You Sow]

To achieve peace you must conquer war. Here we have quite a busy forum glorifying all aspects of warfare. Same as on the other side. In fact if you do a search for defense forums online, most of them are Pakistani or Indian. Peace doesn't grow overnight in such conditions. Not saying that military might is bad or you should not feel proud of your military. But I think Pakistanis and Indians glorify their armed forces way too much and henceforth do their thinking out of a barrel of a gun.

 

[Hulk]

I did state that no articles will change my opinion as it has formed yours. Why do you not come to Pakistan yourself and find these textbooks. I said before that copy pasting articles would not be necessary as many Indians have done this before. Simialrly I can get such articles about India too.

Shows your mentality well when all follow the same pattern without knowing the facts.

I agree to this point but want to generalize it. I have said the same thing before but so far not been successful to convince others. Let me give it one more shot.

Both Indians and Pakistani suffer from having knowledge about others from internet, hearsay and news. What they do not understand is that while information available over the web gives them some idea, if you do not do proper research and close your eyes to other information there is a good chance you will be not having correct information.

What that leads to is Indians talking about Pakistan that Pakistani's do not find anywhere and Pakistani's talking about India which does not make sense to us.

I know for fact that lot of posters here talk about India things they have no idea about.

So first and foremost it is important for us to make attempt to understand each other, try to understand what a real India and Pakistan is like and then form opinion.

The way I do it myself is I always read and believe to a large extend what some good Pakistani posters post about their country. Instead of me believing the internet I try to talk to people on ground.

I feel I understand Pakistan better then what I use to before I started talking to people here on the forum.

So we both have myths about each other and till the educated class does not try to resolve the myth and instead keep it growing, we will never understand each other and we will always have a trust deficit and will never be able to solve anything between us.

On the other hand people who spread false information about other country and created hatred will succeed and what we will be discussing mostly in this forums is how to nuke each others and feel proud that we have more nukes than you.

Friendship between India and Pakistan is worth more than trillion dollars, it is we the fools who does not understand it.

 

[T-Faz]

^^^^^^

I have travelled to India and known many Indians therefore I know the dangers of stereotyping. Even then I indulge in it sometimes when compelled to do so.

The more we get to understant the point of view of the other side, the better it would be for us both.