WHO suggests India's death toll for covid19 is around 4.7 million, almost ten times more than offical figure.

[Wiler87]

It is not about my perception of what is important for Indian voters. It is Indian politicians themselves who are likely to worry about optics and the media criticism that could follow.

It IS about your skewed perception and Prejudice.

Your argument is self defeating since the exact same system works in the West. (election and democracy)

So why two different standards to judge similar situation ?

 

[GamoAccu]

We only saw India.

 

[StraightEdge]

You are stupid, and you probably know it as well.

He is, and he knows that very well. That's a site run by volunteers, it's even mentioned on the site as well. In fact they just aggregate all govt sources data and perform data analysis on that. In fact if you open the site, it's literally mentioned on that. He is using an open community project as a govt effort. That's how desperate some cow dung bhakts have become.

About - covid19india.org

 

[Wiler87]

Did any other country dump their dead covid bodies in the river and beach like India?

Or burn dead covid bodies in parking lot in India?

The first picture is of old custom of burial of bodies along the banks of the Ganga. It has nothing to do with CoVid. This is an ancient practice outlawed in 1988 but it still continues.

These are pictures from 2018 and 2021. One is before CoVid and one is After CoVid. There is NO Change.

Dead bodies at river banks, the seemingly ghoulish practice goes much beyond Covid-19. This is why Hindus ‘bury’ too


The Second picture is not of a parking lot, but of a Crematorium. You can see the Crematorium sheds to the right.


This is the problem with propaganda, its based on LIES and even if you repeat the lie a 100 times, it won't turn into the truth.

We only saw India.

Those are private operators selling oxygen cylinder due to mass panic reaction. There will always be those who panic and those who take advantage of their fear.

He is, and he knows that very well. That's a site run by volunteers, it's even mentioned on the site as well. In fact they just aggregate all govt sources data and perform data analysis on that. In fact if you open the site, it's literally mentioned on that. He is using an open community project as a govt effort. That's how desperate some cow dung bhakts have become.

About - covid19india.org

I never said its a govt. site. I just said its Govt. data which you just confirmed. lol.

 

[hussain0216]

It was a GENOCIDE in India, caused by their own beghairati

In any other country Modi would be lynched

 

[Wood]

It IS about your skewed perception and Prejudice.

Your argument is self defeating since the exact same system works in the West. (election and democracy)

So why two different standards to judge similar situation ?

I don't see a point in whatever you are trying to say.

 

[StraightEdge]

I never said its a govt. site. I just said its Govt. data which you just confirmed. lol.

You just lied and when caught trying to shift the narrative.

India has a very transparent and detailed CoVid management and response mechanism.

Where did you say this was a volunteer driven data? Not to mention, they stopped working for past few months.

As for excess deaths in covid, even lancet study gives similar numbers.

DEFINE_ME

Average estimate from the study is about 4.07 million.

 

[Wiler87]

You just lied and when caught trying to shift the narrative.

Where is the lie ? India does have a very transparent data. How do you think those guys got the data to put up in a website ?

I don't see a point in whatever you are trying to say.

If Indian politicians hid death rates from CoVid to manage "elections", even US an Canadian officials must have hidden death rates from CoVid to manage elections.

What is good for the goose, must be good for the gander.

The very fact you have two separate standards shows your deep rooted prejudice.

Its this clear enough ?

You just lied and when caught trying to shift the narrative.


Where did you say this was a volunteer driven data? Not to mention, they stopped working for past few months.

As for excess deaths in covid, even lancet study gives similar numbers.

DEFINE_ME

Average estimate from the study is about 4.07 million.

MoHFW | Home

www.mohfw.gov.in

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

LOL Indeed.

It does not matter where you die, on the road or in home or in a hospital, you need a DEATH CERTIFICATE to be cremated.

And that Death Certificate needs to mention CAUSE OF DEATH signed by a Qualified DOCTOR.

India is not China where doctors need to lie.

The only place where under reporting was deliberate was West Bengal. That is the only aberration in the CoVid death rate.





What is the point of quoting foreign media ? how can they ever be more reliable than Indian media ?

Govt. had no need to "Hide" CoVId deaths because NO ONE IN INDIA votes on the bases on CoVid death statistics.

The whole assumption is laughable and totally out of touch with reality.



Quite frankly, this long well researched rational explanation is wasted on idiots.

Got death certificate for these people?

Here is a NY post report:

Redirect Notice

Reuters

Swelling Ganges opens up India's riverside graves

More corpses are washing up on the banks of the Ganges in India's most populous state of Uttar Pradesh, as rains swell the river and expose bodies buried in shallow graves during the peak of the country's latest wave of coronavirus infections.

www.reuters.com

 

[StraightEdge]

Anyone other than cow dung eating retards won't believe the numbers from India. Those morons think everyone are naive.

 

[Wiler87]

Got death certificate for these people?
View attachment 841823


View attachment 841824View attachment 841825

Here is a NY post report:

Redirect Notice

Reuters

Swelling Ganges opens up India's riverside graves

More corpses are washing up on the banks of the Ganges in India's most populous state of Uttar Pradesh, as rains swell the river and expose bodies buried in shallow graves during the peak of the country's latest wave of coronavirus infections.

www.reuters.com

India has a pretty Robust system of Birth and Death reporting as per Statute across Gram Panchayat district and State level.

Govt. has also conducted regular aduits to confirm CoVid deaths, especially when questions were raised.

Those bodies have been buried there for Centuries and even though its outlawed, many still practice old customs. CoVid just brought Media attention to this and hyped it up.

Its foolish to assume New York or France would have better Idea about what happens in India than any Indian news media. This is not 1945 anymore.

 

[Wiler87]

Anyone other than cow dung eating retards won't believe the numbers from India. Those morons think everyone are naive.

If you claim India’s Covid death toll is 2x govt figure, it’s understandable. But not 10x

Media reports from cremation sites claiming the central and state govts are hiding Covid deaths might be effective in setting a narrative, but they don't pass muster.

India is in the middle of its second wave of the coronavirus pandemic. Our social media feeds have morphed into SOS helplines with citizens running from pillar to post to arrange medicines and oxygen cylinders. Amid this, the pack of foreign correspondents and their desi counterparts, who in the first wave couldn’t explain India’s low death rates, have made a triumphant comeback, with many of them claiming that India is grossly underreporting its Covid-19 death numbers now.

As per John Burn-Murdoch of the Financial Times, who put together data for seven districts through news reports, the “numbers of Covid victims who have been cremated are 10x larger than official Covid death counts in same areas.”

Now, if your claim is that the Covid death toll in India is twice the government figure, it’s still understandable. But to claim it is 10 times the number fails to pass the smell test.

To begin with, the under-reported death figures aren’t part of some grand global conspiracy. This has been happening and will continue to happen across the globe. For example, New York was accused of under-reporting its nursing home deaths by a few thousand that were added to the tally in early February 2021. This pushed their total nursing home resident deaths up from 8,500 to nearly 15,000.

So, if one digs deeper for such stories in India, they will find that state governments are underreporting deaths. But that’s not the point. This is not a brief for any government, nor is it an apologia to reduce the death count. The only thing I am bothered about is the truth.

So, should we be taking the ‘ten times the number of deaths’ claims seriously?

What critics miss

For starters, the criticism of the government’s nefarious schemes has to be consistent. Critics would have us believe that the same governments (state and central), which can’t provide basic facilities during the second wave, are somehow Machiavellian enough to under-count death rates by a factor of 10.

If the death count was actually 10 times, it’d suggest that both state and central governments somehow managed to come together on the same page and succeeded in keeping the official numbers down. And they managed to do so under immense scrutiny from NGOs, media, activists, and the foreign press.

Just to give some perspective, the official death toll as of 28 April is 2,04,812. If the actual figure was 10 times, it’d mean that more than 20 lakh (or 2 million) people in India have succumbed to Covid-19.

We had the same narrative last year during the first wave. Between April and July 2020, there were several reports about Muslim burial grounds being overburdened and running out of space. So it is possible that there were under-reported deaths during the first wave too. But the key question is, by how much?

Such stories had cropped up from Mumbai as well. But after a while, it was clear that the chaos was partly because of the spike (which is expected), but primarily because burial grounds were overburdened with Covid-19 protocols.

Another way is to look at the death rates of 2018-2020, while ascertaining three things.

1. What is the spike in terms of absolute number of deaths?
2. In which period did this spike happen?
3. Can these numbers be attributed to Covid completely?

If someone says ‘Yes’ to the third question, what they are saying is that every additional death in India has happened only because of Covid, which is outrageous, because it’s impossible that Indians have become immune to every other disease.

Present hard numbers

Let’s look at the data. In Mumbai, 20,719 more deaths (around 23 per cent) were reported in the 2020 calendar year compared to 2019. It was 1,11,942 in 2020 and 91,223 in 2019. May 2020 had the highest number of deaths registered (14,328) compared to 7,335 deaths in May 2019.

Now, when we calculate the excess mortality data we must keep in mind the standard year-on-year rise of deaths by 2 to 2.5 per cent.

One must also remember that these are the total number of deaths in the whole year. These numbers do not indicate or consider deaths by other causes. For example, during the first wave, the entire health infrastructure had collapsed and patients suffering from various chronic illnesses like cancer, kidney failure, hypertension, and diabetes were denied basic healthcare access. Also, the lockdown had temporarily reduced the rate of deaths by road accidents for a while, but it had also resulted in an increase in deaths by suicide. To get the real picture, one might have to look at the age-wise distribution (Covid-19 does tend to harm those aged 60 and above more).

The official Covid-19 fatality figure of Mumbai was 11,116 for 2020. So when we take points number 1 and 2 into consideration and try to break down the excess number of deaths, it would be fewer or not more than two times the official count.

Another point we need to remember in the case of Mumbai is that the first wave had hit the slums disproportionately. This can be seen by looking at the sero survey conducted by the Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation (BMC), which showed that 57 per cent of the people in slums had antibodies to Covid-19 as against 16 per cent in non-slum pockets. How do we know whether the sero survey was right? Well, during the second wave, the spread of the infection is completely lopsided in comparison to the first wave — 90 per cent cases are concentrated in high-rise buildings while slums account for just 10 per cent. Slum-dwellers do not have the same level of access to quality healthcare in comparison to non-slum dwellers. This is another factor that should be considered when we try to understand the overall mortality narrative.

Let us consider another state for our analysis. Kerala released its all-cause mortality data, according to which, the state recorded over 16,000 fewer deaths in 2020 compared to the average of the previous five years. The point to be noted here is that Kerala had and still has the second highest number of infections in India.

What it tells us​

If one was to consider all these factors, the only rational conclusion that can be derived is that the number of Covid-related deaths in India could be two times what the governments (state and central) claim. It cannot be beyond that. And if someone wants to make the ‘10 times’ claim for the whole nation, then they should provide evidence for it.

Taking some news reports and amplifying them to suggest the entire country is crumbling is not data crunching, it’s simply pandering to the ‘bhay ka mahaul’ (atmosphere of fear) narrative without giving facts to substantiate it. In a huge country like India, it’s always possible to find any story to fit one’s narrative but that doesn’t make it the universal truth.

The only way to figure out the real numbers would be by looking at the annual death data and then trying to make sense out of that after a year.

As Carl Sagan once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Nothing substantiates the 10 times claim, and stories of crematoriums might be effective in setting a narrative, but they certainly don’t pass muster.

In fact, one would’ve to use a metaphorical blade of two philosophical razors to truly slice through the ridiculous claims: Hitchen’s and Hanlon’s. While Hitchen’s states that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence, Hanlon’s states: “Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.”

A close observation would show that we can reject the claims simply because they are being made either from malice or stupidity, neither of which is a great skill for data observation.

 

[Wood]

If Indian politicians hid death rates from CoVid to manage "elections", even US an Canadian officials must have hidden death rates from CoVid to manage elections.

What is good for the goose, must be good for the gander.

The very fact you have two separate standards shows your deep rooted prejudice.

Its this clear enough ?

Ah, you are trying to play with classic whataboutery! Open a thread to discuss about Canadian numbers if you care enough. My comment in this thread is about India's reported numbers.

 

[Wiler87]

Ah, you are trying to play with classic whataboutery! Open a thread to discuss about Canadian numbers if you care enough. My comment in this thread is about India's reported numbers.

Now that your hypocrisy is exposed, you are shifting the blame and the goalpost.

I am not interested in Canadian numbers, but since WHO used double standards in reporting Canadian and Indian deaths and you agreed with their double standards by claiming some family story about claim from central India, its time you agree that canadian politicians too hid Covid deaths.

Are you going to stick with your double standards and hypocrisy or will you show the common decency to admit you were wrong ?

 

[Wood]

Now that your hypocrisy is exposed, you are shifting the blame and the goalpost.

I am not interested in Canadian numbers, but since WHO used double standards in reporting Canadian and Indian deaths and you agreed with their double standards by claiming some family story about claim from central India, its time you agree that canadian politicians too hid Covid deaths.

Are you going to stick with your double standards and hypocrisy or will you show the common decency to admit you were wrong ?

Why do you want to get so personal about these things? I'm not interested in discussing with people who have found hypocrisy on the internet. Good luck 'exposing' others.