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Who is an Indian?

You can go back and see that I did not make caste an issue at all. Your tangential response to a one lined post of mine to a Pakistani is what brought caste into focus.

My post simply said that that Pakistani poster was a racist. You jumped in with manufactured outrage, and that is what led to any talk of castes.

I'm really not interested in an internet-battle. I have better things to do.

It was your shameless Hindu Hate and Racism that painted "upper caste" as racists while at the same time calling pakistani racists which is the issue.

So you DID bring in caste.

You calling that pakistani "racist" is like the pot calling the kettle black. My outrage is quite real and natural as your inherent Hindu hate. Stop pretending to be an expert on Hindu society to cloak your Bigotry.
 
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It was your shameless Hindu Hate and Racism that painted "upper caste" as racists while at the same time calling pakistani racists which is the issue.

So you DID bring in caste.

You calling that pakistani "racist" is like the pot calling the kettle black. My outrage is quite real and natural as your inherent Hindu hate. Stop pretending to be an expert on Hindu society to cloak your Bigotry.

Sigh. I already clarified to you that I do not consider all upper caste hindus to be racists. If it pleases you to continue thinking that I have "hindu hate" and racism, I won't try to disabuse you of your notions.

I'lll clarify once more, to anybody else who may suffer the same misunderstanding: I did not mean that all upper caste hindus are racists.

I can't be clearer than that; but I know that for some people, tilting at windmills and fighting non-existent enemies is the only way to get some self importance. Far be it for me to stop them.
 
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Sigh. I already clarified to you that I do not consider all upper caste hindus to be racists. If it pleases you to continue thinking that I have "hindu hate" and racism, I won't try to disabuse you of your notions.

I'lll clarify once more, to anybody else who may suffer the same misunderstanding: I did not mean that all upper caste hindus are racists.

I can't be clearer than that; but I know that for some people, tilting at windmills and fighting non-existent enemies is the only way to get some self importance. Far be it for me to stop them.

I neither want nor care for your "clarification". You don't even wish to withdraw your statement, only wish to "clarify" it :cheesy: Sounds suspiciously like Aamir Khans "clarification' :lol:

Your words speak what your mind says, and what your mind said then is clear as day. No clarification is going to put a burqua over the truth. Spare me the piety.
 
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I neither want nor care for your "clarification". You don't even wish to withdraw your statement, only wish to "clarify" it :cheesy: Sounds suspiciously like Aamir Khans "clarification' :lol:

Your words speak what your mind says, and what your mind said then is clear as day. No clarification is going to put a burqua over the truth. Spare me the piety.

OK.

Do you agree that Arabs are your dadas? Please state that, instead of your travel wishes. Say "Arabs are my dadas." That would be an honest application of your logic to yourself.



@Saiful Islam : Since you couldn't bring yourself down to say that sentence, I think it's fair to say you disown your logic, right?
 
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I stick to the Truth and to Facts. be it "enemy" or "friends".

And that is FURTHEST from any islamist POV as far as I can see. You need to clarify what you mean.

You needlessly seek and make enemies. Thats typical islamist behaviour.
 
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Sheesh, your post contains so many brainfarts that I really think I ought to be paid wages to explain the falsity in each. I'll address a few.

Ours goes back to Harrapa, Mehrgarh almost 5,000 years ago on the Indus basin. All provinces of Pakistan are home of ancient sites dating from over 5,000 years ago and thus tied into their Indus basin. We are the Indus people presently going under the label "Pakistan". Here let me show you map of our country and our geography that has been the cruicible of civilization that gave birth to us as a people. The present incarnation of Indus basin is called Pakistan. Any doubts have a look at map below.

Really? So modern Pakistan is a cultural evolution of the IVC? Here is something you ought to know - being located on the same geographic territory does not in any way mean that one civilization is a descendant of the other. If so, the present Americans could claim to be descendants of Apaches.

The identity of Pakistan as an entity, as a collective, was created deliberately in the 19th and 20th century, by Iqbal and others. There is nothing wrong in that - a people living in a place can choose to adopt a new identity, if they so wish. But don't pretend that the idea of Pakistan is a continuation of the IVC. No, not even remotely. There have been many abrupt civilizational changes there. The arrival of Islam was probably the last major one. It was a complete break from what existed before. Much earlier, the arrival of Vedic tribes (whether from outside or from within) was also a complete change from what existed before. The vedic civilization was NOT a continuation of the IVC. The later hindu ones may have been a continuation of the Vedic one, albeit very different in religion, customs, tradition and language. The Islamic one that came up later was again a complete break from what existed before.

You don't seem to understand what "civilization" or "identity" means in an anthropoligical sense. You are under the mistaken impression that whoever lives in one place is a descendant of any ancient civilization that was unearthed at the same place. All I can say, to put it as simply as possible, is that you are wrong.

The identity of Pakistan was born in the past two centuries. The identity of USA was formed in the past four or so. The identity of a French people began with the emergence of the Frankish tribes. The idea of a Germanic people...and so on.

In the South of India for example, the identity of a Tamil people or civilization is millennia old. The identity of a Malayali is 800 or 900 years old. And by the way, the Tamil identity is distinct from the previous proto-dravidian identity. The Tamil identity cannot claim to be 5,000 years old just because there was another civilization that long back in that same region.

And it was Ancient Pakistan that came up civilization. Don't bother farting on about the non existance of the name. Rest assured when Mehr Garh or Harrapa were being built the name India would still have another 4,000 years to go before it was coined. If I changed my name to Obama it would not entitle me to claim his past and neither would it erase my own past life. Name is just a name. 95% of Pakistani people are native to each of their provinces and lands. The Punjabi tilling his soil outside Harrapa has always been there. He is decendant of those who built Harrapa unless you can probve he was teleported their from Mars. Just because he now lives in a federation called Pakistan does not divorce him from his grandparents and their forefathers.

Again - living in the same place does not mean being the inheritors of all previous civilizations. That would be true only if each subsequent civilization is a natural evolution of the preceding one. That is not the case with the IV to Pakistan. Heck, even the IVC to the Vedic civilization was a clean break, not a gradual evolution. The Vedic civilization was not a continuation of the IVC. The Islamic civilization was not a continuation of the Vedic.

Tell me where does yours began? Holy Ganga? What tell me? Dravid India?

Depends, what do you mean by "yours"? Our national identity? As I said in my first post, that began in 1947, with the establishment of the Republic of India. That is when India came into existence as a nation-state.

Or are you asking about the identity as one civilization? Then there is no single one, the Indian subcontinent has had many civilizations emerging. Even today, different people have different times for the beginning of their collective identity.

As I mentioned before, the Tamil civilization is probably the oldest continuously existing one in India today. The identity of a Tamilian, of "Tamizhakam", is ancient. The Tamilians can rightly claim to be civilizational descendants of the Cholas, Pandyas etc. But all Indians are not inheritors of those civilizations. There are many cultural identities in India. Only the identity as a single nation is common to every Indian.

And then you have tiny 5% of India that is in shadow of Pakistan and thus picked bit of civilization from us. However tell me what did Ganga India or Dravid India contribute to ancient history? Nothing. Just swamp of Adavasis and Achoots.

Yea this just shows your complete, utter ignorance of what you are talking about. Do you even know what "adivasi" means? It means "original dweller", and it refers to people who lived on the subcontinent BEFORE Aryans or Dravidians or anybody else. There are many adivasis, and the very reason they are called so is because they were separate from the Dravidians and others who came later. So your statement that "Ganga India" (whatever te fvck that means) or "Dravid India" contributing adivasis, is a contradiction in terms. The word adivasi itself means someone who lived here before Dravidians (or anybody else).

The Dravidians called some of those adivasis as "Chandalas" in a derogatory way, and they are today calles "Santals". There are also Kols, and a few other Adivasi tribes whose history is completely different to that of the later Indian peoples, including Dravidians.

You really should not throw out terms you don't know.

And then you have tiny 5% of India that is in shadow of Pakistan and thus picked bit of civilization from us. However tell me what did Ganga India or Dravid India contribute to ancient history? Nothing. Just swamp of Adavasis and Achoots.

No matter what your age, there is no shame in opening a history book or two for the first time. Are you really asking what the non-Pakistani parts of India contributed? Let's see, the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Rashtrakutas, the Cheras, the...man, oh man.

There have been splendorous civilizations in South India that were completely different from the ones in North India an today's Pakistan. In the ancient world, the Cholas were one of the richest civilizations, operating from Tanjavur as their capital. Their accomplishments in arts, literature, architecture, learning etc match or even eclipse those of their North Indian counterparts. Know anything about the magnificent temples, the majestic palaces they built? Check out the Brihadeeswara temple to name just one. Their civilization's influence encompassed South India and much of South east Asia. They had the finest naval fleet of the time, which helped expanding their reach.

Rajendra_map_new.png


That was contemporaneous to the Mauryas in the North. Then there have been so many others, and this is just South India I'm talking about.

Ah wth, I can't really expend so much time educating you. As I said before, pick up a history book. Or if you belong to that set of people who do not have the patience or inclination for reading, watch BBC's "Story of India". One of the episodes is entirely devoted to the Southern civilizations of India, including the Dravidian and Tamil ones.

And that's just one part of India that had great civilizations unshared with today's Pakistan. The Pallavas, Satavahanas, Kadambas, Pandyans, Vijayanagara were all civilizations that had nothing to do with today's Pakistan, and they all not only achieved magnificent feats of civilizational accomplishments, but also left their indelible mark on the subsequent people.


(Have you heard the story of the frog living in a well who thinks his well is the world, and refuses to believe there are rivers and lakes and oceans elsewhere?)
 
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Sheesh, your post contains so many brainfarts that I really think I ought to be paid wages to explain the falsity in each. I'll address a few.



Really? So modern Pakistan is a cultural evolution of the IVC? Here is something you ought to know - being located on the same geographic territory does not in any way mean that one civilization is a descendant of the other. If so, the present Americans could claim to be descendants of Apaches.

The identity of Pakistan as an entity, as a collective, was created deliberately in the 19th and 20th century, by Iqbal and others. There is nothing wrong in that - a people living in a place can choose to adopt a new identity, if they so wish. But don't pretend that the idea of Pakistan is a continuation of the IVC. No, not even remotely. There have been many abrupt civilizational changes there. The arrival of Islam was probably the last major one. It was a complete break from what existed before. Much earlier, the arrival of Vedic tribes (whether from outside or from within) was also a complete change from what existed before. The vedic civilization was NOT a continuation of the IVC. The later hindu ones may have been a continuation of the Vedic one, albeit very different in religion, customs, tradition and language. The Islamic one that came up later was again a complete break from what existed before.

You don't seem to understand what "civilization" or "identity" means in an anthropoligical sense. You are under the mistaken impression that whoever lives in one place is a descendant of any ancient civilization that was unearthed at the same place. All I can say, to put it as simply as possible, is that you are wrong.

The identity of Pakistan was born in the past two centuries. The identity of USA was formed in the past four or so. The identity of a French people began with the emergence of the Frankish tribes. The idea of a Germanic people...and so on.

In the South of India for example, the identity of a Tamil people or civilization is millennia old. The identity of a Malayali is 800 or 900 years old. And by the way, the Tamil identity is distinct from the previous proto-dravidian identity. The Tamil identity cannot claim to be 5,000 years old just because there was another civilization that long back in that same region.



Again - living in the same place does not mean being the inheritors of all previous civilizations. That would be true only if each subsequent civilization is a natural evolution of the preceding one. That is not the case with the IV to Pakistan. Heck, even the IVC to the Vedic civilization was a clean break, not a gradual evolution. The Vedic civilization was not a continuation of the IVC. The Islamic civilization was not a continuation of the Vedic.



Depends, what do you mean by "yours"? Our national identity? As I said in my first post, that began in 1947, with the establishment of the Republic of India. That is when India came into existence as a nation-state.

Or are you asking about the identity as one civilization? Then there is no single one, the Indian subcontinent has had many civilizations emerging. Even today, different people have different times for the beginning of their collective identity.

As I mentioned before, the Tamil civilization is probably the oldest continuously existing one in India today. The identity of a Tamilian, of "Tamizhakam", is ancient. The Tamilians can rightly claim to be civilizational descendants of the Cholas, Pandyas etc. But all Indians are not inheritors of those civilizations. There are many cultural identities in India. Only the identity as a single nation is common to every Indian.



Yea this just shows your complete, utter ignorance of what you are talking about. Do you even know what "adivasi" means? It means "original dweller", and it refers to people who lived on the subcontinent BEFORE Aryans or Dravidians or anybody else. There are many adivasis, and the very reason they are called so is because they were separate from the Dravidians and others who came later. So your statement that "Ganga India" (whatever te fvck that means) or "Dravid India" contributing adivasis, is a contradiction in terms. The word adivasi itself means someone who lived here before Dravidians (or anybody else).

The Dravidians called some of those adivasis as "Chandalas" in a derogatory way, and they are today calles "Santals". There are also Kols, and a few other Adivasi tribes whose history is completely different to that of the later Indian peoples, including Dravidians.

You really should not throw out terms you don't know.



No matter what your age, there is no shame in opening a history book or two for the first time. Are you really asking what the non-Pakistani parts of India contributed? Let's see, the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Rashtrakutas, the Cheras, the...man, oh man.

There have been splendorous civilizations in South India that were completely different from the ones in North India an today's Pakistan. In the ancient world, the Cholas were one of the richest civilizations, operating from Tanjavur as their capital. Their accomplishments in arts, literature, architecture, learning etc match or even eclipse those of their North Indian counterparts. Know anything about the magnificent temples, the majestic palaces they built? Check out the Brihadeeswara temple to name just one. Their civilization's influence encompassed South India and much of South east Asia. They had the finest naval fleet of the time, which helped expanding their reach.

Rajendra_map_new.png


That was contemporaneous to the Mauryas in the North. Then there have been so many others, and this is just South India I'm talking about.

Ah wth, I can't really expend so much time educating you. As I said before, pick up a history book. Or if you belong to that set of people who do not have the patience or inclination for reading, watch BBC's "Story of India". One of the episodes is entirely devoted to the Southern civilizations of India, including the Dravidian and Tamil ones.

And that's just one part of India that had great civilizations unshared with today's Pakistan. The Pallavas, Satavahanas, Kadambas, Pandyans, Vijayanagara were all civilizations that had nothing to do with today's Pakistan, and they all not only achieved magnificent feats of civilizational accomplishments, but also left their indelible mark on the subsequent people.


(Have you heard the story of the frog living in a well who thinks his well is the world, and refuses to believe there are rivers and lakes and oceans elsewhere?)

Excellent post:tup:
 
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