Who is a Hindu?
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Wrong theory,because Genetics and Archeology goes against it, I have given you a nice example of this, "If you recall Kivisild was second author in the infamous Bamshad study of indian caste populations which had forcefed AIT once but then after the new study he has made a U turn and puted up what actually happened"
What destroyed the civilization is another matter of discussion altogather, but Aryans didnt destroyed it as I have told you genetics and archeology goes agaisnt it, I'll discuss with you how. The destruction of Indus valley civilization or for that matter dwarka whose ruins has been found in coasts off Gujrat has been done through natural changes than anything Aryan invasion, International Archeology has proven it!
As I have told you there are more than one way of the word Hindu, dont mix Hindu with Hindi, in Ved, 'Sa' is pronounced as 'Ha', Sapta Sindu becomes Hapta Hindu as per some Persian texts
But overall I did agreed, It is better known as 'Sanatana-dharma' rather than Hindui-ism.
Thank you for the information.
Because It goes against genetics and archeology.
Absolutely wrong, Vedas are not stories of invasion, They speaks many other things which the upanishads explains. Upanishads are part of Vedas, Vedas speaks of Indus valley civilizations life in many part excplained by Upanishads as well.
I'm sorry you have some serious wrong information, Swastika is a as used in India is a Hindu symbol first then any Nazi, Nazis used it, There are different forms of Swastika found in Mayan civilization as well!
Swastika is not only found in north indian hindu symbols but it is a universal Symbol of peace, dont mix the nazi swastika with hindu swastika it contains two dots.
Dont forget It is among thousand of thing found in Indus valley civilization excavations as well.
I have told you Arya is used to give respect in Sanskrit.
Sanskrit has links with Indo-Iranian Languages but in reality they do has differences.
Here is the fine mistake of the AIT theory once done by kivisild and then with latest genetical research refutted by the same one, Archeology has also gone against it, Migration actually happened in the OPPOSITE WAY than the way AIT prescribes.
Get this book , published recently 2003 methink,
The Real Eve : Modern Man's Journey Out of Africa (Paperback)
by Stephen Oppenheimer
Get that book first and read it.
Oppenheimer's genetic map:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/
Dr. Koenraad Elst's favorable review:
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/koenraadelst/aaitio.html
kivisild from IC group
I have given you a little bit genetic proof, Will give you more if you want, Remember this part,
If you recall Kivisild was second author in the infamous Bamshad study of indian caste populations which had forcefed AIT(aryan Invasion Theory) once but then after the new study he has made a U turn and puted up what actually happened
I have given you a slight example on the Shompel tribe in andaman who are older than azoribinis are actually genes traced from africa! when continent broke out!
I'll discuss on this language a bit later, it'll get too diverse.
You have said right but the fact is the opposite, infusion of local genes among foreign peoples happened not otherwise!
correct, but there is another link as well, you'll see Krishna to be deep blue in north whereeas in south to be lighter blue it is because during Mughal era paintings they used to prefer this color deep blue for some reasons, and it is been coming from there.
There is not much commonality between Artemis and Durga, The concept of Durga is here to you then,
Durga depicts ten hands with ten weapons gifted to her by ten lords to fight the devil.
She is accompanied by her four sons viz Karthik, Ganesha, Lakshmi and Saraswati.
The Vedas and Upanishads depicts durga as in a Society, if you/one wants to be untouched by the evil power (a-sura) or wants to defeat it it needs these things,
1> Money - Lakshmi.
2> Education - Saraswati.
3> Politician - Ganesh.
4> Military expert (hindi me yudhbid) - Karthik.
Apart from these one needs blessings of ten men from the society which means one needs accompanians in the society to support him of his endeavours against the evil
This is the concept behind Durga.
Thus to beat the evil in the society or to fight off succesfully against one one needs power, power aka Shakti in form of, he should be properly educated, he should have money, should be sound in politics and should know ways and tactics of rivalry/war, and should be supported by kith and kin in the society.
Hundreds of kids in the internet calls it idol worship which is totally incorrect, in Durga puja days the puja in the day of Ashtami , and the Ashtami evening Sandhi Arathi begins with,
'Ya devi Sarba Bhutesu shakti rupesu na shanshthitaye namastassaye namastassaye namastassey namoh namahah"
It is repeated with 108 types of forms of Devi Durga, from Shaki rupesu to matri rupesu to etc etc.
IMHO you should come in calcutta aka kolkata for durga puja festival time once, as usual just like me more than anything you'll like the enjoyment spirit, the city is known as city of joy, you'll love the food (bengalis makes one of best foods), and ofcourse the girls...without them everything is incomplete.
Sitting in Maddox Square and having a beer or two is different experience atogather
Kali Devi is very very important here as well in Bengal, It has different forms but Kali Devi , Durga all these are same people but in different form.
How to perform puja infront of Kali also varies according to its color, there are Tantrik ways, Vedic ways etc etc.
Not really correct, Vedas the the highest part of Hinduism, our birthday to astrology to everything is governed by it, Upanishads are a part of Vedas but phisophical aspect of it.
Each puja is performed in Vedic method, then there are different divisions among each other.
A very specific and clear-cut example of the overarching East- to -West gradient in ancient times. If even the distant SE Asians were colonizing Europe thru the sea routes (or via Iranian-Hrvat proxies), what to say of the more proximate Indians and Mideasterners?
The evidence of mtDNA haplogroup F in a European population and its ethnohistoric implications
Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism was analysed in a sample of 108 Croatians from the Adriatic Island isolate of Hvar. Besides typically European varieties of human maternal lineages, haplogroup F was found in a considerable frequency (8.3%. This haplogroup is most frequent in southeast Asia but has not been reported before in Europe. The genealogical analysis of haplogroup F cases from Hvar suggested founder effect. Subsequent field work was undertaken to sample and analyse 336 persons from three neighbouring islands (Brac, Korcula and Krk) and 379 more persons from all Croatian mainland counties and to determine if haplogroup F is present in the general population. Only one more case was found in one of the mainland cities, with no known ancestors from Hvar Island. The first published phylogenetic analysis of haplogroup F worldwide is presented, applying the median network method, suggesting several scenarios how this maternal lineage may have been added to the Croatian mtDNA pool.
Tribal and Caste Indians are from the same stock,
PS: This paper has an excellent section on "India as an incubator for early genetic differentiation"
I can go on, Lets sum things up a bit,
1> You asked Why Sanskrit and Persian has similarities - would go there later-
2> You asked about Swastika being used in north India and being in Nazi, however you forgot Swastika has been found in Indus valley civilization archeological diggings and Nazi swastika is not even 100 years old, and it is used all over India.
3> You asked about Germany bearing resemblance with India, I explained it to you by reverse migration of genes,
4> You asked about Destruction of indus valley civilization, the causes of it are natural and nas been proved archeologically, even ruins of Dwarka preserved as it is inside Sea has been found! Dwarka was Krishnas Fort.
5> You asked about Hinduism not being much about Vedas which is incorrect, every rights of Hinduism is performed in its highest maner by the Vedas.
6> You asked about Vedas not speaking about invasion because it is story of invasion itself, that is the most weird comment I have seen lol, Vedas speaks nothing about invasion, foreigners, dravidians, or aryans, It should atleast speak of Dravidians to suport your point in most simple manner.
The vedas itself has huge divisions, heard about Charjapad? It is from Sanskrit found in Nepals and Tibets ancient monasdtries, it was known as 'evening landuage' or 'Sandho Bhasa'.
7> Upanishads are part of Vedas but in different light, a philosophical aspect of it.
8> Arya in Sanskrit means 'To give respect'.
9> This is only genetical proof have given you in little, Archeological proofs are just simply mind blowing, revently in Russian city of Volga , the idol of Vishnu was found, idol of Vishnu was widespread among the Harappan/Mohenjodaro or Indus valley civilizations, just a simple example leaving aside the Archeological study of India.
Another Example, If you know 11% of romanian population are horse-trading gypsies. That's a phenomenal identifiably indian presence right in the heart of europe (balkan area). The Jewish Population of Romania is only 5%, even though Jewish settlement precedes that of the gypsies by half a millenium (arguably). I think this strongly indicates that indian settlers were enterprising enough in whichever domain happened to fall upon them.
There are records for a group called SINDOI centered around the Black Sea and decribed explicitly as an "Indian people" by the greek historians (the so-called "Pontic Indo-Aryans"). Amazingly, one of the dominant gypsy tribes is named SINTI. Both came from Sindh/Sindhu area, their migrations forming a veritable continuum across millenia.
The Gypsies are genetically identical to Indians. Except they lack M17 (R1a1):
This would suggest that R1a1 was selected out by genetic drift. for genetic drift to operate, the founder population must have been small enough and tight-knit enough. This founder group, small and inconsequential by indian standards, was indeed a phenomenal event for the indegene euros; gypsies now form 11% of the population right in the balkan heartland!!! And the jews who had arrived earlier, from closerby, and in greater numbers form only 5%.
Actually, this major european lineage (50% local admixture) was descended from an identifiable small caste in India.
AIT is as truthful as saying that the gypsies invaded and conquered india because gypsy language is similar to sanskrit and there is genetic linkages between gypsies and indians.
Just analysing one of the recent thorough research it is easily seen and proved that, The oldest genetic diversity outside Africa is found in India in the beachcomber remnants such as Veddas and Chenchus. These originals subsequently expanded into the regular indian "caste" type-which have the 2nd greatest diversity outside africa. The indologist creeps were fond of saying that the indian "caste" populations had come in and wiped out these aboriginal veddas, chenchus, etc. Oppenheimer says that this is completely wrong. The standard Indian "caste" populations are direct descendants of the vedda types.
Another argument implicit in oppenheimer's thesis is that stone age does not mean culture-poor and language-poor. Think of the rich cultures of the native americans, categorically stone age, but as culturally developed as the Vedic Hindus. In this respect, all the different waves from India, up the Indus, into C. Asia and regions north were not just bland peopling events, but major cultural founder events. Oppenheimer proves that this happened not once, but on many different occasions, across tens of thousands of years; so much so, in fact, that it can be seen as a historical principle of east-to-west and south-to-north diffusion and migration. Also there was a considerable time differential between the incubation period in South Asia, and the first tentative ventures north: 30,000 years.
Oppenheimer's genius is that he follows common sense which had long ago been buried by the euro-racists: black evolves to brown which, in turn, mutates to pale skin. Of course, he goes much deeper into the genetics.
The reason I gave you a small tip off previously about the shompel tribe in andaman, is Vishnu Som, chief editor of NDTV known to me has flown there with Navy during tsunami, they are one of the oldest living tribe in the whole world!! still lives like peoples of stone age, getting their sights are very difficult as well.
AIT is absolute nonsense , genetics has proved it , Archeology has proven it better.
Atleast Nostradamus got it correct this time
There are records for a group called SINDOI centered around the Black Sea and decribed explicitly as an "Indian people" by the greek historians (the so-called "Pontic Indo-Aryans"). Amazingly, one of the dominant gypsy tribes is named SINTI. Both came from Sindh/Sindhu area, their migrations forming a veritable continuum across millenia.
The Gypsies are genetically identical to Indians. Except they lack M17 (R1a1):
This would suggest that R1a1 was selected out by genetic drift. for genetic drift to operate, the founder population must have been small enough and tight-knit enough. This founder group, small and inconsequential by indian standards, was indeed a phenomenal event for the indegene euros; gypsies now form 11% of the population right in the balkan heartland!!! And the jews who had arrived earlier, from closerby, and in greater numbers form only 5%.
Actually, this major european lineage (50% local admixture) was descended from an identifiable small caste in India.
AIT is as truthful as saying that the gypsies invaded and conquered india because gypsy language is similar to sanskrit and there is genetic linkages between gypsies and indians.
Just analysing one of the recent thorough research it is easily seen and proved that, The oldest genetic diversity outside Africa is found in India in the beachcomber remnants such as Veddas and Chenchus. These originals subsequently expanded into the regular indian "caste" type-which have the 2nd greatest diversity outside africa. The indologist creeps were fond of saying that the indian "caste" populations had come in and wiped out these aboriginal veddas, chenchus, etc. Oppenheimer says that this is completely wrong. The standard Indian "caste" populations are direct descendants of the vedda types.
Another argument implicit in oppenheimer's thesis is that stone age does not mean culture-poor and language-poor. Think of the rich cultures of the native americans, categorically stone age, but as culturally developed as the Vedic Hindus. In this respect, all the different waves from India, up the Indus, into C. Asia and regions north were not just bland peopling events, but major cultural founder events. Oppenheimer proves that this happened not once, but on many different occasions, across tens of thousands of years; so much so, in fact, that it can be seen as a historical principle of east-to-west and south-to-north diffusion and migration. Also there was a considerable time differential between the incubation period in South Asia, and the first tentative ventures north: 30,000 years.
Oppenheimer's genius is that he follows common sense which had long ago been buried by the euro-racists: black evolves to brown which, in turn, mutates to pale skin. Of course, he goes much deeper into the genetics.
The reason I gave you a small tip off previously about the shompel tribe in andaman, is Vishnu Som, chief editor of NDTV known to me has flown there with Navy during tsunami, they are one of the oldest living tribe in the whole world!! still lives like peoples of stone age, getting their sights are very difficult as well.
AIT is absolute nonsense , genetics has proved it , Archeology has proven it better.
Atleast Nostradamus got it correct this time
niaz
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Thanks Joey about a very interesting theory. Nevertheless it is still a theory and based upon one book only thus not the last word on the subject.
There is no doubt that humans moved out of Africa. My own belief is that the migration was from Ethiopia across to Yemen and then North to Levant and East into Iran- India on on wards. Another branch travelled north along the coast from Turkey into Europe. Since all humans originated from Africa any way, there has to be genetic commonality.
I have read so much about the Aryan invasion that I am still not fully convinced. I have, however, always kept an open mind and therefore not going to say that it is wrong; like all other theories it is possible that Oppenheimer could be right. ( By the way did you know that J. Robert Oppenheimer was the chief physicist at the Manhattan project which developped the first ever Atomic bomb during WW2. )
It has long been established that Gypsies actually came out of Egypt into Europe ( Egyptians corrupted became gyptians and finally into gypsies). Their origin is most probably Indian and are of the same stock as Banjaras. Many of them still worship Kali Devi and still indulge in petty theft in addition to dancing and singing ( a Banjara is always a Banjara !!). How the gypsies reached Egypt from India in large numbers is a matter for speculation.
Ther are two theories about Garden of Eden. In the Gilgamesh Tablets found in the Babylonian digs, story of Adam and Eve is mentioned and some authors believe Eden to be Bahrain, where sweet water bubbles out from under the sea bed. Some researchers believe that Jews came across this story while in captivity in Babylon and included it in the 'Genesis' part of their Scriptures.
Second theory which I saw in the TV program 'Discovery Science' is that Eden was somewhere near modern Tabriz and Adam and Ever were probably banished for some reason.
Again these are all theories and may or may not relate to what really happened.
However, all of this is a diversion to "Who is Hindu" I have nothing more to add on the main topic.
There is no doubt that humans moved out of Africa. My own belief is that the migration was from Ethiopia across to Yemen and then North to Levant and East into Iran- India on on wards. Another branch travelled north along the coast from Turkey into Europe. Since all humans originated from Africa any way, there has to be genetic commonality.
I have read so much about the Aryan invasion that I am still not fully convinced. I have, however, always kept an open mind and therefore not going to say that it is wrong; like all other theories it is possible that Oppenheimer could be right. ( By the way did you know that J. Robert Oppenheimer was the chief physicist at the Manhattan project which developped the first ever Atomic bomb during WW2. )
It has long been established that Gypsies actually came out of Egypt into Europe ( Egyptians corrupted became gyptians and finally into gypsies). Their origin is most probably Indian and are of the same stock as Banjaras. Many of them still worship Kali Devi and still indulge in petty theft in addition to dancing and singing ( a Banjara is always a Banjara !!). How the gypsies reached Egypt from India in large numbers is a matter for speculation.
Ther are two theories about Garden of Eden. In the Gilgamesh Tablets found in the Babylonian digs, story of Adam and Eve is mentioned and some authors believe Eden to be Bahrain, where sweet water bubbles out from under the sea bed. Some researchers believe that Jews came across this story while in captivity in Babylon and included it in the 'Genesis' part of their Scriptures.
Second theory which I saw in the TV program 'Discovery Science' is that Eden was somewhere near modern Tabriz and Adam and Ever were probably banished for some reason.
Again these are all theories and may or may not relate to what really happened.
However, all of this is a diversion to "Who is Hindu" I have nothing more to add on the main topic.
No it is not a theory it has been proven, I really would like to know the other word if it exists and what would be it scientifically with Archeology and Genetics, Science and Archeology has proved that there was No Aryan invasion, It is Well known fact that Christians tried to establish supremacy from establishing Noah's beliefes from Bible with that of Aryan invasion which is some hoard of BS!!!
There was absolute propaganda during 1800 with no scientific proof but based on philosophical aspect to relate Christianity to everything and prove the white supremacy theory.
Here is the basis of AIT and the desperate try to relate it with fanaticism
I'd really like if you can prove the otherwise or prove AIT.
Those who (in philosophy) make use of myth are unworthy of serious consideration’.
Aristotle, Metaphysics.
Just what the fanatical christians tried to do by proving White supremacy and relating it with bible.
Didnt quite get you, Your saying migration was from Africa to iIndia?Migration happened in parallel ways one from India another from Africa! I have given you genetical proof, Lets see what more I can give you.
There were three two four types of migrations happened paralelly!
Humans moved from Africa via Searoute!! Seafood was their major diet this agsin has been proven! the presence of Shompel tribe in andaman are a tip of the iceberg!!
Per standard AIT , north indians are invaders from Europe
What DNA shows is that north Indians are descended from south Indians
who were the main migrants into India through the coastal route
DNA also shows that India is mostly a people exporter
All non-africans are of Indian descent
Per AIT, Europeans invaded India
DNA shows that Europe was colonised by Indians from Punjab area by 7 separate migrations
DNA also shows that most of the Indian population has been present in India
for over 20k years
Niaz if you want to do your DNA mapping do it from here,
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/participate.html
They charge $100 for one time testing of DNA mapping.
AIT has been ABSOLUTELY DISPROVEN, However if you want to say how much present day Hinduism relates with that of Indus valley times, I'd say they relates pretty much the same but we did had evolution inside us as well, many more assimilation of thoughts, many things got introduced, many things got changed over time, practices in different parts etc etc.
Its not matter of oppenheimer himself but look at kvisild! the infamous Bamshed theory of indian caste which force FED AIT, he was once the author of that but after further research made a COMPLETE U turn!
I dont know where you have read from, but all my articles are cutting edge research not some article of 18th century racist euro-facist peoples, who tried to establish white supremacy and tried to link Christianity with that of Aryan invasion.
Speculation? Dude All every latest research has proved otherwise about the AIT.
I dont know where Eden comes here because there is no relation between Aryan invasion theory and Eden.
I saw a programme in doscovery which showed Caves in central Asia where there are ancient drawings whosing peoples migrating from SOUTH ASIA TO EUROPE! they got divided in their way as well.
Tell me do you want more proof? Bring me scientific articles or cutting edge research proving AIT, heavens sake it has been disproved by the whole world scientists other than communists and the Religious fanatics , This is only Genetics, If I start with archeology you'll be startled!!
I can challenge anyone who can prove me AIT based on Genetics and Archeology and all cutting edge research, It has been absolutely proven AIT is total myth.
Geology, genetics, fossil studies, radio carbon dating, archaeology, logic, science, mathematics Cant be replaced by what religion says can it be? I can prove with all the above all has proven AIT to be ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
Dont tell me Philology of bible is more truer than Geology, genetics, fossil studies, radio carbon dating, archaeology, logic, science, mathematics combined.
What does philology tell us? The Bible is correct and there must have been one common language for the whole earth. This must have of course come from the place where Noah landed with his travelling zoo, i.e., Central Asia. All of the earth's inhabitants must be descended from one of Noah's sons. India must have been originally inhabited by the descendents of Ham who was dark-skinned.
Do you think IITians are dduumb morons to fall for this poppycock?
Even in maths, The kerala School of mathematics did many things like pythagoras theorems to etc way before Greece did it, there are books in kerala called as Samitha which deals with secret knowledge.
Read about some here,
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Indexes/Indians.html
I'll finish in laymans term short and simple with a Quote from Aristotle,
Those who (in philosophy) make use of myth are unworthy of serious consideration.
Aristotle, Metaphysics.
Another fine example through a different angle,
K and U (europa) are also firmly anchored in India. infact JT is post neolithic. euro entry of K is just prior to that.
Oppenheimer also rules out a typological origin for C Asians; they are second only to South Asians in diversity and thus intimately derived from S Asia:
Oppenhiemer page 191:
Basically, we see two parallel intensifications:
1. the undifferentiated type out of india into C asia and N. Asia
2. Mongoloid type out of SEA into Siberia
More beautiful work by the still believer of white a-la white suprematies,
I dont know what or where you said 'I have read so much about AIT', i'm sure your not reading the right scientific articles or not going inside the deep geopolitics of this thing.
What does philology tell us? The Bible is correct and there must have been one common language for the whole earth. This must have of course come from the place where Noah landed with his travelling zoo, i.e., Central Asia. All of the earth's inhabitants must be descended from one of Noah's sons. India must have been originally inhabited by the descendents of Ham who was dark-skinned.
Do you think IITians are dduumb morons to fall for this poppycock?
Even in maths, The kerala School of mathematics did many things like pythagoras theorems to etc way before Greece did it, there are books in kerala called as Samitha which deals with secret knowledge.
Read about some here,
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Indexes/Indians.html
I'll finish in laymans term short and simple with a Quote from Aristotle,
Those who (in philosophy) make use of myth are unworthy of serious consideration.
Aristotle, Metaphysics.
Another fine example through a different angle,
K and U (europa) are also firmly anchored in India. infact JT is post neolithic. euro entry of K is just prior to that.
Oppenheimer also rules out a typological origin for C Asians; they are second only to South Asians in diversity and thus intimately derived from S Asia:
Oppenhiemer page 191:
Basically, we see two parallel intensifications:
1. the undifferentiated type out of india into C asia and N. Asia
2. Mongoloid type out of SEA into Siberia
More beautiful work by the still believer of white a-la white suprematies,
I dont know what or where you said 'I have read so much about AIT', i'm sure your not reading the right scientific articles or not going inside the deep geopolitics of this thing.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/
It only shows DNA chain for starters without going into too much detail, but none-the-less clearly disproves AIT, check how peoples from Africa first reached India through crossing sea and check how it is written 'all non-african peoples are descendents of this group that crossed the sea through arabian peninsula towards India'.
Also explains why you still find one of worlds oldest living tribe the Shompels in Andaman deeo forests.
I have already given this link earlier.
niaz
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The genetic map stops at 8000 years ago. Aryan invasion/migation was supposedly between 2000 to 1200 BC or from 4000 to 3200 years ago.
No wonder 'No Aryans' . Aryan as a group originated some 5000 years after the map shown in the link Joey posted ends.
Think we are talking cross purposes. The DNA map refers to a period long before recorded history began. Aryan invasion occurred at the dawn of iron age/end of bronze age.
No wonder 'No Aryans' . Aryan as a group originated some 5000 years after the map shown in the link Joey posted ends.
Think we are talking cross purposes. The DNA map refers to a period long before recorded history began. Aryan invasion occurred at the dawn of iron age/end of bronze age.
Absolutely wrong and absolutely wrong, the map has nothing to do with the papers I provided you, read all the papers I have you, get the book and read it.
your making the very basic mistake,
Bronze age began WELL BEFORE IN SOUTH INDIA/SRILANKA THAN IN EUROPE and it is Archeological and Genetical FACT.
Your mixing up the map with the papers, no wonder you havent really have read anything into what I'm trying to say.
I'm sorry to conclude that either you have been thinking real superfacially or you have read nothing of the articles I have given,
Craniometric investigation of the Bronze Age settlement of Xinjiang
American Journal of Physical Anthropology
©2003
Brian E. Hemphill 1, J.P. Mallory
as usual, the hard facts are not allowed to speak for themselves and get overruled by various prejudiced notions. same is the case here also.
In summary, the SSVC ethnics migrated directly to the Tarim area. There was subsequent overlay of local Afghanis ("Bactrians") around this SSVC nucleus. The later afghani overlay also corresponded with a move north into the Oxus basin.
It is becoming clearer that European culture is a Mongol/Indo-afghan hybrid. Dr. Elst traces millet production around the Black Sea to Central Asia and eventually to North China. Indo-Afghans were the occupiers of this region as well as evidenced by teh Pontic Sindoi-Indoi (Cuphes-Kubha, ). The "animal art" of the Celts is also directly traceable to Mongol-Siberia, as well as the mound shaped burials. And of course, we all knw that the horned Cerunnos on the Gundestrop cauldron is directly relatable to SSVC representations.
From Srilankan Archeological Directors Desk , the article I gave you earlier, quoting it,
I suggest you stress on this paragraph,
From the book. Page 116.
by oppen..
Please remember that even minor movements within civilizations such as India and China are faithfully recorded while comparatively major ones in the asian backwaters will hardly be remembered by anyone, if at all noticed. The ones that we do know about such as those of the Huns, Mongols, and Sakas are only known through their peripheral impacts upon the two great Asian sister civilizations of India and China. Even so, these so-called horde invasions in the east always come from the east itself and are most characteristic of Mongolians and Altaics and hardly of such ancient white trash as the ruskis, etc. Even the Hyksos horde, which pinched Egypt, was a semetic one- where they came from and how they originated among the semetics is conveniently glossed over as that would dispel the europeanist delusion of aboriginal albino hordes invading the east. The Hittites are definitively known to have entered from the East and probably belonged to the same wave as the authentically Indic Mittani and Kassites. I see the slow, measured movements of the Kurds, Iranians, and Gypsies as models for successive Indic colonizations of Northern Asia. Greeks are well known as a minor sub-branch of our Parsee cousins.
Here Oppenheimer turns the conventional wisdom about Central Asia as a melting pot upon its head. Of course, he goes beyond the typical eurocentric garbage to rely upon dead solid genetic evidence:
Pg 149-150
Some more evidence that caste indians are derivatives of the so-called aboriginals...
Science, Vol 308, Issue 5724, 996 , 13 May 2005
More evidence of the overwhelming east-to-west gradient. There is a parallel migration from Southeast Asia (Haplo F) to Central Asia and eventually to Eastern Europe. Iranians, Croats are all derived populations from this South/Southeast Asian expansion.
So lets make it short and to find your point which is absolutely wrong look here,
Figure 1.3 on page 135 of the book derives euro mtdna lines J and T1 from the Near East at dates a few thousand years after 10K BP. All these lines had originally come out of india. Also the route taken by gypsies into the balkan heartland for Europe is the prototype for indian migration via the Mideast conduit. Again, the value of Oppenheimer is the overarching pattern he proves for east to west transmission.
Oppenheimers histogram shows expansion of J ( from Near East into Europe ) a few thousand years after the 10K mark.
Haplogroup J is also called HG9
According to Kivislid,
This means that both markers previously used to mark the so-called "IE Speakers" - M17 and HG9 - have LOCAL indian origins.
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild2003a.pdf
Some more for you,
http://flonnet.com/fl2213/stories/20050701000106500.htm
Unearthing a great past
T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
Photographs: A. Shaikmohideen
http://flonnet.com/fl2213/images/20050701000106501.jpg
The centrepiece of the discoveries is this potsherd with the motifs of a woman, a stalk of paddy, a crane, a deer and a crocodile
THE Iron-Age urn-burial site at Adichanallur, about 24 km from Tirunelveli town in southern Tamil Nadu, has attracted nationwide attention for three important findings: an inscription in a rudimentary Tamil-Brahmi script on the inside of an urn containing a full human skeleton; a potsherd (fragment of broken earthenware) with stunningly beautiful motifs; and the remains of living quarters (rampart wall, potters' kilns, a smith's shop and so on) close to the site.
The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) started digging the site in February 2004, about 100 years after the last excavation activity there.It is an extraordinarily large urn-burial site spread over 114 acres (45.6 hectares) on a low, rocky hillock on the right bank of the Tamiraparani river, close to a lake and surrounded by paddy fields and banana plantations. The first phase of excavation in 2004, stretched between February 4 and July 5. In the six trenches that were dug then, the ASI ran into a range of spectacular finds. Each trench was a square, 10 metres by 10 metres. T. Satyamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist of the ASI, Chennai Circle, is the overrall director of the excavation.
A total of 157 burial urns were found, 57 of them intact and 15 with complete human skeletons inside. Many of the urns, especially those that contained human skeletons, were covered with another urn, in what is called a "twin-pot" system. They had been buried after cutting the rock in circular pits, into which the urns were lowered in a three-tier formation. The earliest burials formed the lowermost tier, which left enough space above to accommodate future burials.
Among the artefacts discovered at the burial site were a profusion of red ware, black ware, black-and-red ware, copper bangles, copper ear-rings, iron spear-heads, terracotta lids with tiered knobs, terracotta vessels that could be used both as lids and as bowls, globular vessels and long-necked utensils. There were vases, pots with exquisite decorations, broken daggers and swords made of iron. There were also Neolithic celts, iron implements, urns with clan marks and urns with hooks inside.
The urns with skeletons had inside them empty miniature vessels, rice, paddy and husk. The miniature vessels were of three types: bowls, small vases and pots. Made of polished blackware, they are thought to have had religious significance. These small vessels invariably had their lids on. The lids were decorated with dotted, floral or geometrical designs and were painted. Some lids had tiered knobs that looked like chess pieces
One urn had the skeletons of a mother and a child. Some skulls had disintegrated, the bones had become fragile. Some urns were broken, and were filled with earth, obviously the handiwork of treasure-hunters. Three copper bangles and some copper chisels were also found at the site.
Outside, around the urns, were bigger pots, which were red ware. Iron implements, knives, daggers, spearheads and Neolithic celts used in farming were found around the urns. Some pots rested on ring stands of different shapes. The lids came in different shapes - conical, globular, and so on. More than a thousand pot-vessels were unearthed intact. Lots of terracotta beads in conical shape and hop-scotches were found.
What is fascinating is the discovery of urns with clan/tribe marks. Some urns had ornamentation such as thumb-nail impressions running all round the neck. The clan marks included three lines separating out from the top, with knobs, and garland-like designs.
Satyamurthy called the Adichanallur burial site "the earliest site in Tamil Nadu" and was sure that its history would go back to 1,000 B.C. "In our excavation, we have come across a culture earlier to the megalithic period. It is a well-stratified culture. The pottery is typologically different from that of megalithic pottery," he said. (According to archaeologists, the Iron Age in South India stretched between 1500 B.C. and 300 B.C. The Iron Age and the megalithic age were contemporaneous in South India. The Iron Age signifies the beginning of civilisation).
The centrepiece of these discoveries is the potsherd with motifs in appliqué designs. It was found inside an urn which had a human skeleton. At the centre of the motifs is a tall, slender woman with prominent breasts and wearing a knee-length dress. Her hands are clinging to her sides and the palms seem to be spread out. Next to her is a sheaf of standing paddy and a crane is seated on the paddy stalk. There is a beautiful, young deer with straight horns and upturned tail. There is also a crocodile, and a knob mark. The appliqué designs were made using clay. A small thin rope was used to bring about the serrated effect in each motif.
Satyamurthy called the potsherd "a unique find because no such motifs have been found so far in burial sites in Tamil Nadu. These motifs resemble pre-historic cave paintings found in central Tamil Nadu, including Erode and Dharmapuri districts." Archaeologists are agreed that the depiction of the woman signifies the mother-goddess/fertility cult.
G. Thirumoorthy, Assistant Archaeologist, ASI, Chennai Circle, who led a young team during the first phase of the excavation (other members were M. Nambirajan and P. Aravazhi), also said that the potsherd was "a unique find in the excavation of the Iron Age period, especially in South India." In other urn-burial sites in India, potsherds with such appliqué motifs have not been found so far. One expert, who found them "amazing" and "fantastic", said these motifs could be as old as 700 B.C. Arun Malik, Assistant Archaeologist with ASI, said: "Normally, such motifs are not found on pottery as they are generally seen only in pre-historic cave paintings."
Thirumoorthy said: "Adichanallur shows the importance given to the dead in Tamil society. The excavation reveals the mode of burial practice, the disposal of the dead, the religious beliefs prevalent then, and the socio-economic conditions of the people who lived here at that time."
The inhabitants of Adichanallur used an ingenious method to bury their dead. Thirumoorthy pointed out that these megalithic people were intelligent and had foresight because they used barren and not agricultural land to bury their dead. Besides, the urns were buried on a hillock, where they could not be flooded by the nearby river or the lake. "This is actually, a rocky hilly area. The urns were inserted after cutting the rocks in pit forms. It is not like digging the earth or sand. This is laborious work. Their intention was to accommodate the burials that would come later. That is why they went as deep as possible," he said. They obviously used iron crowbars to cut the rocks. The crowmarks on the sides of the pits could still be seen.
The excavation has brought to light the town's fortification/rampart wall, which was made of mud with stone veneering in parts. Three potters' kilns with ash, charcoal and broken pots were found, confirming, according to Satyamurthy, that this was a habitational site. "It looks like a crowded town which was busy. On the one side is the burial site. Within 500 metres you have the kilns, which means life was active. It may have been an urban centre," he said.
Nambi Rajan said the trenches revealed a man-made floor paved with lime plaster. There were holes on the floor to hold posts. . A few individual letters in Tamil-Brahmi script have been found on potsherds. Plenty of potsherds with graffiti, especially the ladder symbol, have been unearthed. Artefacts unearthed include carnelian beads, terracotta beads and so on.
Some specialists are of the opinion that Adichanallur must have been a busy mining and industrial centre. The making of bronze figurines, iron implements such as swords, daggers and arrow-heads and big urns showed that it was a busy industrial township, they say.
Remember niaz these are only a few of Genetical proofs, If I start with archeology things would go limitless.
I have given you the national geograaphis genome project link, get your DNA test done, it'll ciost $100, but you'll get to know where your ancestors came from.
I have told earlier the map is a simplificative version to show world human movement with natural disasters and does not goes into any detail of any invasions but stresses into the natural big calamities happened and a commong route.
I have provided you more than enough EVIDENCE to prove my point, Kindly check the paragraph in brown that debunks completely what you thought of saying and the subsequent article by Kivislid.
You cannot prove Carbon dating, archeology, genetics, mathematics, logic wrong.
The fact remains that to explain the genetics of Indians, the presence of Europeans is inconsequential. However, to explain the genetics of Europeans, a profound Indian ancestry must be taken.
If you want to say how much of what has changed between Indians living now and Indians of then, or is Hinduism the way we see today is exactly the way thigns were in indus valley time? answer is NO there has been hundreds of reforms inside reforms, addition of foreign to local thoughs , practices inside it though keeping the books same.
However if you say AIT happened, thats some hoards of BS, better prove it with Carbon Dating, Dental mapping, Genetics, Archeology, Mathematics, Habitats, etc etc.
I'm only defending Science, not even bible and not even my religion.
I have told you the AIT theory proposers theory of proposing it on the basis of Noahs Arc, which is ABSOLUTELTY RIDICULOUS.
The proposers of AIT argues with philoology in light of Bible and some other baseless facts, for them I'll quote him again,
Those who (in philosophy) make use of myth are unworthy of serious consideration’.
Aristotle, Metaphysics.
However if you say AIT happened, thats some hoards of BS, better prove it with Carbon Dating, Dental mapping, Genetics, Archeology, Mathematics, Habitats, etc etc.
I'm only defending Science, not even bible and not even my religion.
I have told you the AIT theory proposers theory of proposing it on the basis of Noahs Arc, which is ABSOLUTELTY RIDICULOUS.
The proposers of AIT argues with philoology in light of Bible and some other baseless facts, for them I'll quote him again,
Those who (in philosophy) make use of myth are unworthy of serious consideration’.
Aristotle, Metaphysics.
roadrunner
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There's a lot of mistakes in this thread. First of all I'd like to make one thing totally clear. What the Indians are referring to here as "India" is actually the region of Pakistan, the Indus. In fact not much of the history of what is being talking about refers to Bharat proper, as I call it.
Btw, it's my first post..Hi to all.
Btw, it's my first post..Hi to all.
roadrunner
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Totally wrong Srirangan. Hindu is derived from the Vedic word "Sindhu", Avestan is a separate language classification used in a different locale during Vedic times. The precursor of modern Persian/Fars was Old Persian, with Avestan developing alongside itm but Avestan language grew to be extinct with no related descendant (see any language map).
Agreed. Hindu was in reference to Sindhu, which was the area of modern day Pakistan, not India. However, what the people of the Indus practised was not Hinduism, but Vedism, a completely different religion/way of living to modern day Hinduism in India - Modern day Hinduism and traditional Vedism in ancient Pakistan (Saptha Sindhu, or as the Greeks called it Haptha Hindu), are not the same
Sindh never became Hind. Hind was the Perso-Greek pronunciation of Sindh i.e. Hind.
Indra was an Aryan God of the Vedic Aryans, the central figure of the Rig Veda, that became reduced to a secondary figure in some of the later Dravidianized texts that were written from Bharat.
The Aryan invasion only occurred into what is today Pakistan, and Punjab of India. Everywhere else in the subcontinent is pretty much Dravidian.
Genetics
Being 'Aryan' or as it is scientifically termed 'Indo-European' is not a racial grouping but rather a linguistic group. So get over the race obsession!
The term Aryan is currently a linguistical grouping. The 72% "Aryan" India figure is simply a statistics used to denote Aryan speaking Dravidians. However, the Aryans were a historical group of people, as the Rig Veda, which was written in Pakistan attest to.
Will get through the rest another day I think
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