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So? This has nothing to do with what I said.

What matters is the IPR. Even if China makes Apple, it is still a western product designed by a western company. Many Indians wants that, whether it is made in China or India. So many western products are made in China.

You probably missed it, but I said "both Chinese and western goods", not just western goods.

Trade dynamics will change depending on who you are sourcing stuff from. If western countries assembled the iPhone and other electronics, then our trade relations would have been different, on a more equal footing instead of having a surplus with them, leaving more room for growth.

That would mean India's trade deficit with China would have been smaller, leaving more room for growth.

Now there is only negativity and threat of protectionism among all the major trade blocs because of skewed trade.

So self-reliance has become more important, particularly for India. Instead of importing Chinese electronics and machinery, India will have it manufactured at home. Why is it difficult to understand this?

Whatchu talkin' 'bout? Never said anything about Chinese FDI.



Never talked about Chinese IP either.

You haven't understood my point. Yeah, China makes 40% of all machinery on earth, okay, but India wants to change that, is all I'm saying. And what this does is reduce trade deficit for India, which means India is less dependent on Capital Accounts for managing BoP.

Your friend said India is heavily dependent on Capital Accounts to manage forex and will collapse without FDI, while I only said that's not the case.
I have no comment nor disagreement on your financial analysis on India, IMO very fair. My query is only on your statement about "western" goods made in China.
  1. Goods made in China, are mostly machinery and equipment & electronics (see the exports categories), are largely by Chinese own capital (see the list of export powerhouses) as well as some FDI from East Asia (mostly HK, followed by rest of East Asia), so what's "western" element about it?
  2. Goods made in China, no matter brands (trademark IP) are Chinese (like Hi-Sense, Haier) or foreign (like Apple) all backed by comprehensive & hi-tech supply chain (e.g. metallurgy/chemicals/tools/machines/components/robotics) in China (as well as in East Asia, Germany), so what's "western" in it?
  3. Goods made in China is dominated by Chinese own IP, say patent IP, industrial design IP, so what's "western" about it?
 
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I have no comment on India or her financials or future, no disagreement with your contents. My query is only on your statement about "western goods made in China".

You can assume I said "non-Chinese" goods instead of "western" then. It doesn't change my point. I said western because western brands have higher demand in India due to awareness and advertisement. So I was speaking from the PoV of India.
 
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You can assume I said "non-Chinese" goods instead of "western" then. It doesn't change my point. I said western because western brands have higher demand in India due to awareness and advertisement. So I was speaking from the PoV of India.
Yes I guess that's argument viewing from different perspectives, the only query I have is on how much "western" elements are in "goods made in China", since China's massive industrial base is dominated by own capital, own patents, own industrial designs and own supply chain (and in East Asia, Germany).
 
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Yes I guess that's argument viewing from different perspectives, the only query I have is on how much "western" elements are in "goods made in China", since China's massive industrial base is dominated by own capital, own patents, own industrial designs and own supply chain (and in East Asia, Germany).

You made up a question for yourself and you want me to answer it for you.

Western companies who hold IP have outsourced some production to China, that's about it. No consumer in India cares about how much capital China has used by itself or who possess what IP. As long as they want something, they will ask for it. Depending on volumes, the Indian govt can change policy that allows for its domestic production.

It is obvious that China's capital will be greater than FDI, after all it's the same case in India. And as the economy matures, a lot of stuff will be indigenized.

What China's done has been done by advanced economies decades ago.
 
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You made up a question for yourself and you want me to answer it for you.

Western companies who hold IP have outsourced some production to China, that's about it. No consumer in India cares about how much capital China has used by itself or who possess what IP. As long as they want something, they will ask for it. Depending on volumes, the Indian govt can change policy that allows for its domestic production.

It is obvious that China's capital will be greater than FDI, after all it's the same case in India. And as the economy matures, a lot of stuff will be indigenized.

What China's done has been done by advanced economies decades ago.
There are a few categories of IP: Patents, Industrial Design and Trademarks. Apple can have trademark (brand) and some IP (product design), Foxconn has some IP (manufacturing process, machine tools), so do hundreds of component suppliers like TSMC on chipset, ARM on archirecture, SONY on CMOS and DRAM, LG on OLED, SK Hynix on NAND memory ..... so many IPs are there, you think Apple owns them? But not just Apple, French brand Wiko and Indian Micromax or 251 do the similar thing - procurement - Apple only markets better. Companies may "outsource" jobs that they used to do by themselves, how can they outsource anything they have never done in the first place? No, they don't have component IP, no advanced materials IP, no machine tool IP, no manufacturing process IP, they just procure from hi-tech supply chain and put their brand IP on, not jobs outsourcing.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/wipo-the-rise-of-china-as-worlds-largest-ip-powerhouse.489225/

From steel to chemicals to machinery, what China's done has indeed done by few advanced economies decades ago, a handful of them are still doing so and progressing very well (those savings-investment-production oriented), some have lagged behind, some have shifted to services economy, some even in debt-financed consumption mode (in particular those enjoy unlimited debt ceiling), some already become failed economies on IMF life support, while in fact majority of agrarian/resources nations are still not industrialized after all these decades. China is on the path already walked by East Asian peers. We can see where India is nowadays, but I can't comment on future, perhaps most Indians see US as role model? Good luck!
 
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There are a few categories of IP: Patents, Industrial Design and Trademarks. Apple can have trademark (brand) and some IP (product design), Foxconn has some IP (manufacturing process), so do hundreds of component suppliers like TSMC on chipset, ARM on archirecture, SONY on optic senor, LG on OLED ..... so many IPs are there. Not just Apple, French brand Wiko and Indian Micromax or 251 do the similar thing - procurement. Companies may "outsource" jobs that they used to do by themselves, how can they outsource anything they have never done in the first place? How can a cab company "outsources" cab production? No, they don't have component IP, no advanced materials IP, no machine tool IP, no manufacturing process IP, they just procure from hi-tech supply chain and put their brand IP on, not jobs outsourcing.

That's how it works though. Even outsourcing companies have their own IP, something that the client does not, like in-house software.

Apple is a bad example because they own the IP to their entire phone. What the manufacturers own is the manufacturing IP. So if Foxconn ever messes up, Apple can withdraw their entire business with Foxconn and transfer it to someone else like Pegatron. Pegatron may have their own way of doing things because of their IP which might be superior to what Foxconn has. so they are their own competitors. But neither Foxconn nor Pegatron have any control over the iPhone. As far as the consumer is concerned, only Apple is responsible for the iPhone.

We can see where India is nowadays, but I can't comment on future, perhaps most Indians see US as role model? Good luck!

Indians don't see one country as a role model. You can say you will find industry specific role models.

The American Silicon Valley is a role model when it comes to IT. France's defence industry is a role model. There's UK's financial sector. Japan and South Korea's electronics industry.

So on.

But India will find its own way.
 
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Apple is a bad example because they own the IP to their entire phone. What the manufacturers own is the manufacturing IP. So if Foxconn ever messes up, Apple can withdraw their entire business with Foxconn and transfer it to someone else like Pegatron. Pegatron may have their own way of doing things because of their IP which might be superior to what Foxconn has. so they are their own competitors. But neither Foxconn nor Pegatron have any control over the iPhone. As far as the consumer is concerned, only Apple is responsible for the iPhone.
No Apple does not, ARM owns the architecture IP and live on license fee, Foxconn owns the robotics IP, TSMC owns chipset 14nm process IP, SONY owns CMOS and DRAM IP, LG owns OLED IP ... and so on, in fact they also supply to and manufacture for other brands. Sure Apple may choose supply chain, the question is when suppliers monopolize a certain tech, what choice does Apple have? Also look the other way round, the same supply chain did supply for Nokia or Motorola or Blackberry before, if Apple ever fails like them (already falling now), hi-tech supply always have own IP to supply other brands, e.g. Vivo, Oppo, Huawei (already rising).
 
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No Apple does not, ARM owns the architecture IP and live on license fee, Foxconn owns the robotics IP, TSMC owns chipset 14nm process IP, SONY owns CMOS and DRAM IP, LG owns OLED IP ... and so on, in fact they also supply to and manufacture for other brands. Sure Apple may choose supply chain, the question is when suppliers monopolize a certain tech, what choice does Apple have? Also look the other way round, the same supply chain did supply for Nokia or Motorola or Blackberry before, if Apple ever fails like them (already falling now), hi-tech supply always have own IP to supply other brands, e.g. Vivo, Oppo, Huawei (already rising).

Yeah, at the component level the IP is not owned by Apple.
 
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We rely on on both Chinese and western goods that are made in China. That's why the trade deficit is so high. It would have been very different if the western companies made their stuff in their own country instead.

Eventually many of those goods will be made in India. Even Chinese companies have started making in India. For example, smartphone companies.


http://gadgets.ndtv.com/mobiles/new...s-set-up-in-india-in-last-year-prasad-1451588

Right now, manufacturing is making a transition, shifting from other countries into India. So that trade deficit is a temporary phenomenon, probably will end well before 2025. Oil prices are slowly set to erode to very low levels by then. Even if we don't export, imports will reduce.

You need to realize that manufacturing something is not just building a factory. It is logistics, supply chain, skilled manpower and also infrastructure. You may set up a cell phone factory in India, but there are no clusters there to support you. You end up producing a product costing twice because you need to import most of the core components. This is reality in India, it took China 30 years to build up the supply chain clusters. When you see a Toshiba or Sony, you fail to see the army of small Chinese OEMs supplying the components to them.

Indian wages are already 3 x cheaper. Yet Chinese and Western manufacturers choose places like Indonesia, Bangladesh and Vietnam to outsource lower end products. The reason is the bureaucratic red tape in India. Your own beloved GOI's incompetence is screwing up your country.

Most of the high end stuff we buy from China is very less. Most of our imports are low-tech, like consumer electronics, easily sourced from elsewhere, particularly within the country.
Low end electronics? You think we only sell you plastic fan? You obviously haven't been to Shenzhen. All your television, computers, cellphones, washing machine, air conditioners contains thousand of Chinese components. The technology to produce the LCD screen is one of the most sophisticated technologies on earth, only Korea, Taiwan, Japan and China has it. The technology to make computer semiconductors are also dominated by the same 4 North East Asian countries.

If you could do it, you would've done it already. Easier said than done.

So you simply stick tariffs on imported electronics and give tax sops for domestic production, as is happening in the smartphone industry. But we can't do that to oil or gold.
Ever wonder why you didn't do it?

This shows what I said. China is led by investment and has less consumption.

China's just built infrastructure. The article I posted says the same.
You were saying it was only led by investments, you fail to see a consumer base 4x larger than India. Use some common sense, if it was that simple as building infrastructure without the infrastructure giving a return, how does China sustain the cost to build the infrastructure? You think we just build roads? There sewage treatment plants, schools, dams, housing, wind turbines, solar parks. These infrastructure will defined China for the next 50 years.

That's how it works though. Even outsourcing companies have their own IP, something that the client does not, like in-house software.

Apple is a bad example because they own the IP to their entire phone. What the manufacturers own is the manufacturing IP. So if Foxconn ever messes up, Apple can withdraw their entire business with Foxconn and transfer it to someone else like Pegatron. Pegatron may have their own way of doing things because of their IP which might be superior to what Foxconn has. so they are their own competitors. But neither Foxconn nor Pegatron have any control over the iPhone. As far as the consumer is concerned, only Apple is responsible for the iPhone.
That is not IP, that's BRANDING. Apple owns the branding for the entire phone but IP to certain technological features of the phone. All other suppliers own IP on their respective components/processes.


Indians don't see one country as a role model. You can say you will find industry specific role models.

The American Silicon Valley is a role model when it comes to IT. France's defence industry is a role model. There's UK's financial sector. Japan and South Korea's electronics industry.

So on.

But India will find its own way.
Hope you find your own way soon, the timebomb is ticking. It's a matter of time those slum dogs get smarter and start to demand more.
 
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You need to realize that manufacturing something is not just building a factory. It is logistics, supply chain, skilled manpower and also infrastructure. You may set up a cell phone factory in India, but there are no clusters there to support you. You end up producing a product costing twice because you need to import most of the core components. This is reality in India, it took China 30 years to build up the supply chain clusters. When you see a Toshiba or Sony, you fail to see the army of small Chinese OEMs supplying the components to them.

China took decades because the domestic market was not mature when it started. In India, the domestic market is mature, the economy is already worth $2.5T.

A proper supply chain for electronics is expected to be built within the next 3 years. In fact, it is one of the most important policy goals in India.

Indian wages are already 3 x cheaper. Yet Chinese and Western manufacturers choose places like Indonesia, Bangladesh and Vietnam to outsource lower end products. The reason is the bureaucratic red tape in India. Your own beloved GOI's incompetence is screwing up your country.

Things have changed, that's why India is now attracting more greenfield FDI than either China or the US.

Low end electronics? You think we only sell you plastic fan? You obviously haven't been to Shenzhen. All your television, computers, cellphones, washing machine, air conditioners contains thousand of Chinese components. The technology to produce the LCD screen is one of the most sophisticated technologies on earth, only Korea, Taiwan, Japan and China has it. The technology to make computer semiconductors are also dominated by the same 4 North East Asian countries.

These things can be replicated. Especially when starting at a higher base than China did.

If you could do it, you would've done it already. Easier said than done.

Ever wonder why you didn't do it?

It's already started.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...to-be-in-navi-mumbai/articleshow/55234419.cms

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...hip-manufacturing-in-india/article8467511.ece
US-based AMD, which does not own any chip manufacturing plants across the world, has partnered with Hindustan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation (HSMC) to help kickstart fabrication in India.

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/ZR...illion-in-two-computer-chip-manufacturin.html
The government plans to invest $10 billion in two computer chip manufacturing facilities that are due to come up...
Sharma also said that India will invest $400 million to develop a microprocessor.


A lot of Chinese will find it difficult to believe, but Indian companies, particularly the massive conglomerates, are highly underestimated.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indian-national-priority-number-one-28nm-semicondutor-fab.486345/

You were saying it was only led by investments, you fail to see a consumer base 4x larger than India.

Comparison with India is irrelevant. China is simply ahead. When India reaches the same level as today's China, India's consumption level will be much greater.

Use some common sense, if it was that simple as building infrastructure without the infrastructure giving a return, how does China sustain the cost to build the infrastructure? You think we just build roads? There sewage treatment plants, schools, dams, housing, wind turbines, solar parks. These infrastructure will defined China for the next 50 years.

Yeah, now that infrastructure spending has decreased, so has economic growth.

Your own govt has said they will decrease fixed asset investment. And it's already showing.

Hope you find your own way soon, the timebomb is ticking. It's a matter of time those slum dogs get smarter and start to demand more.

They are already getting new apartments.
 
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China took decades because the domestic market was not mature when it started. In India, the domestic market is mature, the economy is already worth $2.5T.

A proper supply chain for electronics is expected to be built within the next 3 years. In fact, it is one of the most important policy goals in India.

Do you understand what you just blurted? Creating a manufacturing base has nothing to do with market maturity. It has something to do with government efficiency, infrastructure, logistics, supply chain, skilled labour etc. Your biggest problem is skilled labor, supply chain, government red tape and infrastructure. Supply chain is the hardest to accomplish as you need to build up companies that are willing to relocate and domestic production technology and infrastructure and it will take decades to do it. So now you claim you can do it in 3 years? Don't boast! I can beat with you nothing will change.

Btw India GDP is 2.2 trillion, you conveniently added in 300 billion USD$, indic math?



Things have changed, that's why India is now attracting more greenfield FDI than either China or the US.
Greenfield? Please state your source, China is still the largest FDI destination on earth.

These things can be replicated. Especially when starting at a higher base than China did.
You had a higher base than China in the 80s when China started. Look where you are now.


It's already started.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...to-be-in-navi-mumbai/articleshow/55234419.cms

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...hip-manufacturing-in-india/article8467511.ece
US-based AMD, which does not own any chip manufacturing plants across the world, has partnered with Hindustan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation (HSMC) to help kickstart fabrication in India.

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/ZR...illion-in-two-computer-chip-manufacturin.html
The government plans to invest $10 billion in two computer chip manufacturing facilities that are due to come up...
Sharma also said that India will invest $400 million to develop a microprocessor.


A lot of Chinese will find it difficult to believe, but Indian companies, particularly the massive conglomerates, are highly underestimated.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indian-national-priority-number-one-28nm-semicondutor-fab.486345/
Yah, I had been hearing about Hindustan Semiconductor for the past 8 years. =)

Comparison with India is irrelevant. China is simply ahead. When India reaches the same level as today's China, India's consumption level will be much greater.
See you when you get there. We will stand still and not grow at all while waiting for you to catch up.


Yeah, now that infrastructure spending has decreased, so has economic growth.

Your own govt has said they will decrease fixed asset investment. And it's already showing.

They are already getting new apartments.
To a certain extent this is right, fixed investment has decreased and yes I am a proponent of a slower economic with emphasis on the environment. You will reach that stage too.
 
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Do you understand what you just blurted? Creating a manufacturing base has nothing to do with market maturity. It has something to do with government efficiency, infrastructure, logistics, supply chain, skilled labour etc. Your biggest problem is skilled labor, supply chain, government red tape and infrastructure. Supply chain is the hardest to accomplish as you need to build up companies that are willing to relocate and domestic production technology and infrastructure and it will take decades to do it. So now you claim you can do it in 3 years? Don't boast! I can beat with you nothing will change.

I already gave you links.

Btw India GDP is 2.2 trillion, you conveniently added in 300 billion USD$, indic math?

India's GDP is approaching 160T INR that's $2.48T at the exchange rate going around right now.

Greenfield? Please state your source, China is still the largest FDI destination on earth.

FDI and greenfield FDI are different measures.
http://www.livemint.com/Money/odjTv...ds-highest-FDI-recipient-crown-says-repo.html
India retained its top rank of being the world’s premier greenfield FDI investment destination for the second consecutive year, attracting $62.3 billion in 2016

Yah, I had been hearing about Hindustan Semiconductor for the past 8 years. =)

Things are always slow until it takes off, then it takes off.

See you when you get there. We will stand still and not grow at all while waiting for you to catch up.

I don't think you got my point.

Anyway, the faster China grows, the faster will India.

To a certain extent this is right, fixed investment has decreased and yes I am a proponent of a slower economic with emphasis on the environment. You will reach that stage too.

We will reach that stage in 2050 or later.
 
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I already gave you links.
Links to what? Links would help you build decades of supply chain and infrastructure? India is infamous for telling and bragging to the whole world about her plans, but implementation is another thing altogether.

Here is another link for you to ponder
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...hes-failing-read-how/articleshow/58850656.cms

India needs to create as many as a million new jobs every month just to keep up with the growing population. Under Modi, just over 10,000 jobs a month are being created instead, according to government figures from 2015. The scale of this failure is enormous -- especially since it will add to the angry army of already underemployed young Indians.
As usual the Indian superhero is all noise only. Here is your 'demographic dividend'.


Given the quickening pace of automation, India has precious little time left to ramp up industrialisation.

You have no idea about the incoming automation onslaught!

India's GDP is approaching 160T INR that's $2.48T at the exchange rate going around right now.
$2.251 trillion (2016 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html
Awesome Mumbai stats.


FDI and greenfield FDI are different measures.
http://www.livemint.com/Money/odjTv...ds-highest-FDI-recipient-crown-says-repo.html
India retained its top rank of being the world’s premier greenfield FDI investment destination for the second consecutive year, attracting $62.3 billion in 2016
Not sure how you define greenfield, since FDI in China is mostly used for industrial purposes.

FDI rose 4.1 percent year on year to reach 813 billion yuan ($118 billion) in 2016, the Ministry of Commerce (MOC) said in an online statement.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-01/14/content_27953171.htm


Things are always slow until it takes off, then it takes off.



I don't think you got my point.

Anyway, the faster China grows, the faster will India.



We will reach that stage in 2050 or later.

I don't think you get my point, GDP growth is not just about rhetoric and shouting Modi Modi Modi, it's about the government delivery system. All the best to India, a growing India is a market for China afterall.
 
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Links to what? Links would help you build decades of supply chain and infrastructure? India is infamous for telling and bragging to the whole world about her plans, but implementation is another thing altogether.

Here is another link for you to ponder
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...hes-failing-read-how/articleshow/58850656.cms


As usual the Indian superhero is all noise only. Here is your 'demographic dividend'.




You have no idea about the incoming automation onslaught!


$2.251 trillion (2016 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html
Awesome Mumbai stats.



Not sure how you define greenfield, since FDI in China is mostly used for industrial purposes.

FDI rose 4.1 percent year on year to reach 813 billion yuan ($118 billion) in 2016, the Ministry of Commerce (MOC) said in an online statement.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-01/14/content_27953171.htm




I don't think you get my point, GDP growth is not just about rhetoric and shouting Modi Modi Modi, it's about the government delivery system. All the best to India, a growing India is a market for China afterall.
Modi may have done an OK job in leading an economy smaller than Western China with a slower speed than Western China. He has done extremely well in promoting dominant religious industry.
 
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Links to what? Links would help you build decades of supply chain and infrastructure? India is infamous for telling and bragging to the whole world about her plans, but implementation is another thing altogether.

Here is another link for you to ponder
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...hes-failing-read-how/articleshow/58850656.cms

As usual the Indian superhero is all noise only. Here is your 'demographic dividend'.

This is something the BJP will fix as usual. That's why Modi has been laying the foundation for this over the last 3 years. Even demonetization was part of it.

But jobs are being created in the informal sector. Not counting those who have become self-employed either.

There's also the gigantic 'Skill India' program which aims to skill India's labour force. They want to skill at least 400 million people through this program over the next 5 years.

A lot of countries and companies are investing in the Skill India program.

This article will give you a good idea about what's happening.
https://thewire.in/136579/jayant-krishna-skill-india/

What China took 3 decades to do, we are attempting to do in 5. At least the goal is 5 years, even if it takes 10, it's a huge achievement.

You have no idea about the incoming automation onslaught!

I think the average Chinese has to be more worried about automation than India. In India, labour costs will continue to be cheap for quite sometime and most of the industry is too small for automation to take root. Not to mention, in India, it is the service industry that will continue dominating the economy.

The big companies will switch to automation, but they will be more interested in competing with China and other countries for exports.

The demographic dividend is real.

$2.251 trillion (2016 est.)

That is outdated now. They rely on old govt measures and are yet to update. India's GDP was 153T in INR back in Jan, and the INR has strengthened since then, just do the conversion yourself.

https://qz.com/934016/demonetisation-be-damned-the-indian-rupee-is-on-a-tear/

Not sure how you define greenfield, since FDI in China is mostly used for industrial purposes.

http://www.indianeconomy.net/splclassroom/9/what-is-the-greenfield-versus-brownfield-fdi-debate/
 
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