Where's the beef? Indians don't want to know

[kingkobra]

So they knew what a bullet was..and that it could be made out of lead.

yes indeed...
Bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Vibs]

Sati was an ancient tradition, prevalent in vedic times since the epics mention it & Greek writers of the 4th century BCE also mention it. By the 5th century AD, it was fairy common practice among kshatriyas. Only much later did other castes also indulge in the practice.In South India, it was rare till about 1000 A.D. & while never common place, there were more than a few cases. The first evidence of Sati in S.India was from the 10th century, committed by a queen of Sundara Chola. It was later widely practiced by the Vijayanagara dynasty with numerous wives & concubines of Vijayanagar Kings committing Sati. It spread further South in Karnataka & to Tamil Nadu under the influences of Vijayanagar governors. There have been many Sati memorial stones found in Karnataka (Nayaka & Gauda castes but also including Jains).From S.India, the practice spread to Java,Sumatra & Bali with Indian migrants. The practice of Sati itself had minor regional variations. In Gujarat & Uttar Pradesh, Sati was performed in a specially built wooden hut while in the Deccan,Rajasthan & Western India, the Sati pyre was built in a deep pit.(The First Spring - Abraham Eraly)

Thanks for the reference. This is new to me. Being a Manglorean brought up in Maharashtra ,I had never heard of this thing ever in Karnataka,Kerela or Tamil Nadu. Will read up into your source.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

yes indeed...
Bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That link does not mention anything about bullets in ancient India.

 

[kingkobra]

Sati was an ancient tradition, prevalent in vedic times since the epics mention it & Greek writers of the 4th century BCE also mention it. By the 5th century AD, it was fairy common practice among kshatriyas. Only much later did other castes also indulge in the practice.In South India, it was rare till about 1000 A.D. & while never common place, there were more than a few cases. The first evidence of Sati in S.India was from the 10th century, committed by a queen of Sundara Chola. It was later widely practiced by the Vijayanagara dynasty with numerous wives & concubines of Vijayanagar Kings committing Sati. It spread further South in Karnataka & to Tamil Nadu under the influences of Vijayanagar governors. There have been many Sati memorial stones found in Karnataka (Nayaka & Gauda castes but also including Jains).From S.India, the practice spread to Java,Sumatra & Bali with Indian migrants. The practice of Sati itself had minor regional variations. In Gujarat & Uttar Pradesh, Sati was performed in a specially built wooden hut while in the Deccan,Rajasthan & Western India, the Sati pyre was built in a deep pit.(The First Spring - Abraham Eraly)

there is no concept of sati in vedas...

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------

Thanks for the reference. This is new to me. Being a Manglorean brought up in Maharashtra ,I had never heard of this thing ever in Karnataka,Kerela or Tamil Nadu. Will read up into your source.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------


That link does not mention anything about bullets in ancient India.

but it mentions about lead bullets in 4th century BC...why do you think if one thing is found in europe it must only have been in europe and not in rest of the world?

 

[Bang Galore]

I would like to have some references where it says that caste system is of hereditary nature.
I did a little reading at one point of time,and found out that the different castes were actually the names for different designations.
As for example,the Brahmins-people attached to studying,prayers etc... We call them scholars now.
The Kshatriyas-The warriors and the protectors of the law..We call them Police now.
The Vaishyas-The traders.. We sometimes call them Baniyas now.
The Shudras-The people entitled to make a community function properly by providing services.There goes your service sector...

So,its just a designation.Now there are certain group of people at all times in history of human civilization who will try to bend the faith to make it work for their own benefit,be it the Christian church of middle ages,the Hindu upper castes or the the Islamic mullahs...I think this is what has actually happened,and then became a part of tradition.

Very simplistic view of the caste system & one that is normally put out by the apologists (not you, I'm sure). If what you are saying was remotely believed to be true, why was Drona, the great martial arts teacher of the Mahabharata, a Brahmin? Should he not have been a Kshatriya since that was his profession. Same could be asked about Parushurama. There are specific details of how many rebirths are required to change from one caste to another, something that would not be mentioned if it was based only on profession.(Indra explaining to Matanga in the Mahabharata; Manu's view on that-from manusmriti) Don't want to pollute this thread with more of that nonsense. (PM only if you are very interested).

 

[kingkobra]

Sati was an ancient tradition, prevalent in vedic times since the epics mention it & Greek writers of the 4th century BCE also mention it. By the 5th century AD, it was fairy common practice among kshatriyas. Only much later did other castes also indulge in the practice.In South India, it was rare till about 1000 A.D. & while never common place, there were more than a few cases. The first evidence of Sati in S.India was from the 10th century, committed by a queen of Sundara Chola. It was later widely practiced by the Vijayanagara dynasty with numerous wives & concubines of Vijayanagar Kings committing Sati. It spread further South in Karnataka & to Tamil Nadu under the influences of Vijayanagar governors. There have been many Sati memorial stones found in Karnataka (Nayaka & Gauda castes but also including Jains).From S.India, the practice spread to Java,Sumatra & Bali with Indian migrants. The practice of Sati itself had minor regional variations. In Gujarat & Uttar Pradesh, Sati was performed in a specially built wooden hut while in the Deccan,Rajasthan & Western India, the Sati pyre was built in a deep pit.(The First Spring - Abraham Eraly)

Rig Veda, Book 10, Chapter 18, Verses 8 & 9:

"उदीर्ष्व नार्यभि जीवलोकं गतासुमेतमुप शेष एहि |
हस्तग्राभस्य दिधिषोस्तवेदं पत्युर्जनित्वमभि सम्बभूथ ||"

"धनुर्हस्तादाददानो मर्तस्यास्मे कषत्राय वर्चसेबलाय |
अत्रैव तवमिह वयं सुवीरा विश्वा सप्र्धोभिमातीर्जयेम ||"

'udīrsva naryabhi jīvalokam ghatasumetamupa sesa ehi |
hastaghrabhasya didhisostavedam patyurjanitvamabhi sambabhutha |'

'dhanurhastadadadano mrtasyasme ksatraya varcasebalaya |
atraiva tvamiha vayam suvira visva sprdhoabhimatirjayema ||'

'Rise, come unto the world of life, O woman: come, he is lifeless by whose side thou liest.
Wifehood with this thy husband was thy portion, who took thy hand and wooed thee as a lover.' 8

' From his dead hand I take the bow be carried, that it may be our power and might and glory.
There art thou, there; and here with noble heroes may we o’ercome all hosts that fight against us.' 9

(Rig (x.18.8) blesses a woman at her second marriage, with progeny and prosperity in this life time. Go up, O woman, to the world of living; you stand by this one who is deceased; come! to him who grasps your hand, your second spouse (didhisu) ,you have now entered into the relation of wife to husband.

In rig (X.18.9) the new husband while taking the widow as his wife says to her: let us launch a new life of valor and strength begetting male children overcoming all enemies who may assail us.)

(ii) Atharvana Veda (XVIII.3.4) blesses the widow to have a happy life with present husband. O ye inviolable one ! (the widow) tread the path of wise in front of thee and choose this man (another suitor) as thy husband. Joyfully receive him and may the two of you mount the world of happiness.

 

[IND151]

In fact, contrary to the popular belief, cows are only respected and not worshipped.

On the other hand, Lakshmi, wife of Shiva, mother of Ganesh, the Goddess of Wealth, is worshipped in almost every Hindu home.

wife of Shiva is parvati goddess of power

Lakshmi is wife of Vishnu

 

[Bang Galore]

there is no concept of sati in vedas...

Didn't say there was, just said that it was practiced since vedic times; there are references to it both in Ramayana & Mahabharata.

 

[kingkobra]

Very simplistic view of the caste system & one that is normally put out by the apologists (not you, I'm sure). If what you are saying was remotely believed to be true, why was Drona, the great martial arts teacher of the Mahabharata, a Brahmin? Should he not have been a Kshatriya since that was his profession. Same could be asked about Parushurama. There are specific details of how many rebirths are required to change from one caste to another, something that would not be mentioned if it was based only on profession.(Indra explaining to Matanga in the Mahabharata; Manu's view on that-from manusmriti) Don't want to pollute this thread with more of that nonsense. (PM only if you are very interested).

Drona who was born to a brahmin later studied religion and military arts and then became acharya and thus came to be known as dronacharya( drona the teacher)

 

[Infinity]

I have never been to Kerla, So I can not answer you. But FYI Kerla is one of the state where 50% population is non Hindu. Out of 2 person standing in crowd one is non Hindu. The Beef consumption will be definately higher if every second person compulsory eat beef.

Any way its there personal choisce to eat beef or not. What can I say???

5,000 tonnes of meat consumed a day in Kerala | Deccan Chronicle

5,000 tonnes of meat consumed a day in Kerala

Kerala - which leads the country in several indicators including literacy - is also the highest consumer of meat with a daily requirement of over 5,000 tonnes, according to the state animal husbandry department.

Animal husbandry director R. Vijayakumar does not find the figure of 5,034.96 tonnes a day surprising as 80 per cent of the state's residents are non-vegetarians.

"The sad part is that the domestic production of meat (beef, mutton and chicken) is just around 264.31 tonnes," Vijaykumar said, adding: "The rest comes from nearby states."

The department has collected this data for a national meeting in Gujarat later this month to review the production of meat and allied products.

The survey finds chicken to be the most preferred. In fact, from a mere six per cent share in 1990, it now accounts for 45 per cent of the meat consumed in Kerala.

"The eating profile of our people has undergone a huge change," Vijayakumar said.

"With a large number of IT professionals working in key centres, the fast food habit has picked up hugely. Hence meat is the most preferred item."

In fiscal 2009-10, Keralites spent a staggering Rs. 2,844 crore on chicken, of which Rs. 1,752 crore went to poultry farms outside the state.

"There is a golden opportunity here as there is immense potential to rear chicken, pig, goats and even rabbit," Vijaykumar said.

"Now all the money is going to neighbouring states," Vijaykumar said. "We are going to give huge emphasis to this sector in our plans."

Kottayam, Thrissur and Malappuram lead the state's 14 districts in meat consumption. In fiscal 2009-10, a record 6.1 million cattle came into the state through various check posts; another 1.8 million are estimated to have entered unchecked.

Of the 33 million people in Kerala, according to Vijaykumar, Christians and Muslims together constitute around 47 per cent and most of the meat eaters are from theper cent and most of the meat eaters are from these communities.

"If people in our state take to animal husbandry seriously, it would only benefit them," Vijayakumar said.


The Hindu : Beef eating: strangulating history

Beef eating: strangulating history

While one must respect the sentiments of those who worship cow and regard her as their mother, to take offence to the objective study of history just because the facts don't suit their political calculations is yet another sign of a society where liberal space is being strangulated by the practitioners of communal politics. [text Tag=blue-tint][/Text]PROF. D. N. JHA, a historian from Delhi University, had been experiencing the nightmares of `threats to life' from anonymous callers who were trying to prevail upon him not to go ahead with the publication of his well researched work, Holy Cow: Beef in Indian Dietary Traditions.

As per the reports it is a work of serious scholarship based on authentic sources in tune with methods of scientific research in history. The book demonstrates that contrary to the popular belief even today a large number of Indians, the indigenous people in particular and many other communities in general, consume beef unmindful of the dictates of the Hindutva forces.

It is too well known to recount that these Hindutva forces confer the status of mother to the cow. Currently 72 communities in Kerala - not all of them untouchables - prefer beef to the expensive mutton and the Hindutva forces are trying to prevail upon them to stop the same.

Not tenable

To begin with the historian breaks the myth that Muslim rulers introduced beef eating in India. Much before the advent of Islam in India beef had been associated with Indian dietary practices. Also it is not at all tenable to hold that dietary habits are a mark of community identity.

A survey of ancient Indian scriptures, especially the Vedas, shows that amongst the nomadic, pastoral Aryans who settled here, animal sacrifice was a dominant feature till the emergence of settled agriculture. Cattle were the major property during this phase and they offered the same to propitiate the gods. Wealth was equated with the ownership of the cattle.

Many gods such as Indra and Agni are described as having special preferences for different types of flesh - Indra had weakness for bull's meat and Agni for bull's and cow's. It is recorded that the Maruts and the Asvins were also offered cows. In the Vedas there is a mention of around 250 animals out of which at least 50 were supposed to be fit for sacrifice and consumption. In the Mahabharata there is a mention of a king named Rantideva who achieved great fame by distributing foodgrains and beef to Brahmins. Taittiriya Brahman categorically tells us: `Verily the cow is food' (atho annam via gauh) and Yajnavalkya's insistence on eating the tender (amsala) flesh of the cow is well known. Even later Brahminical texts provide the evidence for eating beef. Even Manusmriti did not prohibit the consumption of beef.

As a medicine

In therapeutic section of Charak Samhita (pages 86-87) the flesh of cow is prescribed as a medicine for various diseases. It is also prescribed for making soup. It is emphatically advised as a cure for irregular fever, consumption, and emaciation. The fat of the cow is recommended for debility and rheumatism.

With the rise of agricultural economy and the massive transformation occurring in society, changes were to be brought in in the practice of animal sacrifice also. At that time there were ritualistic practices like animal sacrifices, with which Brahmins were identified. Buddha attacked these practices. There were sacrifices, which involved 500 oxen, 500 male calves, 500 female calves and 500 sheep to be tied to the sacrificial pole for slaughter. Buddha pointed out that aswamedha, purusmedha, vajapeya sacrifices did not produce good results. According to a story in Digha Nikaya, when Buddha was touring Magadha, a Brahmin called Kutadanta was preparing for a sacrifice with 700 bulls, 700 goats and 700 rams. Buddha intervened and stopped him. His rejection of animal sacrifice and emphasis on non-injury to animals assumed a new significance in the context of new agriculture.

The threat from Buddhism

The emphasis on non-violence by Buddha was not blind or rigid. He did taste beef and it is well known that he died due to eating pork. Emperor Ashok after converting to Buddhism did not turn to vegetarianism. He only restricted the number of animals to be killed for the royal kitchen.

So where do matters change and how did the cow become a symbol of faith and reverence to the extent of assuming the status of `motherhood'? Over a period of time mainly after the emergence of Buddhism or rather as an accompaniment of the Brahminical attack on Buddhism, the practices started being looked on with different emphasis. The threat posed by Buddhism to the Brahminical value system was too severe. In response to low castes slipping away from the grip of Brahminism, the battle was taken up at all the levels. At philosophical level Sankara reasserted the supremacy of Brahminical values, at political level King Pushyamitra Shung ensured the physical attack on Buddhist monks, at the level of symbols King Shashank got the Bodhi tree (where Gautama the Buddha got Enlightenment) destroyed.

One of the appeals to the spread of Buddhism was the protection of cattle wealth, which was needed for the agricultural economy. In a way while Brahminism `succeeded' in banishing Buddhism from India, it had also to transform itself from the `animal sacrifice' state to the one which could be in tune with the times. It is here that this ideology took up the cow as a symbol of their ideological march. But unlike Buddha whose pronouncements were based on reason, the counteraction of Brahminical ideology took the form of a blind faith based on assertion. So while Buddha's non-violence was for the preservation of animal wealth for the social and compassionate reasons the counter was based purely on symbolism. So while the followers of Brahminical ideology accuse Buddha of `weakening' India due to his doctrine of non-violence, he was not a cow worshipper or vegetarian in the current Brahminical sense.

Despite the gradual rigidification of Brahminical `cow as mother' stance, large sections of low castes continued the practice of beef eating. The followers of Buddhism continued to eat flesh including beef. Since Brahminism is the dominant religious tradition, Babur, the first Mughal emperor, in his will to his son Humayun, in deference to these notions, advised him to respect the cow and avoid cow slaughter. With the construction of Hindutva ideology and politics, in response to the rising Indian national movement, the demand for ban on cow slaughter also came up. In post-Independence India RSS repeatedly raised this issue to build up a mass campaign but without any response to its call till the 1980s.

While one must respect the sentiments of those who worship cow and regard her as their mother, to take offence to the objective study of history just because the facts don't suit their political calculations is yet another sign of a society where liberal space is being strangulated by the practitioners of communal politics. We have seen enough such threats and offences in recent past - be it the opposition to films or the destruction of paintings, or the dictates of the communalists to the young not to celebrate Valentine's Day, etc., - and hope the democratic spirit of our Constitution holds the forte and any threat to the democratic freedom is opposed tooth and nail.

 

[kingkobra]

Didn't say there was, just said that it was practiced since vedic times; there are references to it both in Ramayana & Mahabharata.

what makes you think that mahabharata and ramayana are vedic times? and i have no doubt in my mind that ramayana and mahabharta were greatly modified during thousands of years..

Some instances of voluntary self-immolation by both women and men that may be regarded as at least partly historical accounts are included in the Mahabharata and other works. However, large portions of these works are relatively late interpolations into an original story,[4] rendering difficult their use for reliable dating. Also, neither immolation nor the desire for self-immolation are regarded as a custom in the Mahabharata. Use of the term 'sati' to describe the custom of self-immolation never occurs in the Mahabarata, unlike other customs such as the Rajasuya yagna. Rather, the self-immolations are viewed as an expression of extreme grief at the loss of a beloved one.

 

[DarK-LorD]

[/COLOR]

This is clever approach, but practicing it..... may trigger a war.

Forget Cows,Indian politicians don't trigger war even after BD brothers.
But our friends in BD need to do more clean the roads in the suburbs.

 

[Vibs]

there is no concept of sati in vedas...

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------



but it mentions about lead bullets in 4th century BC...why do you think if one thing is found in europe it must only have been in europe and not in rest of the world?

4th century bc was thousands of years AFTER vedic times.

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------

Drona who was born to a brahmin later studied religion and military arts and then became acharya and thus came to be known as dronacharya( drona the teacher)

Teachers=One with advanced senses=bramhin.
Dronacharya martial arts specialist but a teacher not a warrior.Hence a bramhin not a kshtariya.

 

[kingkobra]

4th century bc was thousands of years AFTER vedic times.

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------


Teachers=One with advanced senses=bramhin.
Dronacharya martial arts specialist but a teacher not a warrior.Hence a bramhin not a kshtariya.

yes it is thousands of years after vedic times but that does not mean it did not exist thousands of years before..

 

[Bang Galore]

Rig Veda, Book 10, Chapter 18, Verses 8 & 9:

"उदीर्ष्व नार्यभि जीवलोकं गतासुमेतमुप शेष एहि |
हस्तग्राभस्य दिधिषोस्तवेदं पत्युर्जनित्वमभि सम्बभूथ ||"

"धनुर्हस्तादाददानो मर्तस्यास्मे कषत्राय वर्चसेबलाय |
अत्रैव तवमिह वयं सुवीरा विश्वा सप्र्धोभिमातीर्जयेम ||"

'udīrsva naryabhi jīvalokam ghatasumetamupa sesa ehi |
hastaghrabhasya didhisostavedam patyurjanitvamabhi sambabhutha |'

'dhanurhastadadadano mrtasyasme ksatraya varcasebalaya |
atraiva tvamiha vayam suvira visva sprdhoabhimatirjayema ||'

'Rise, come unto the world of life, O woman: come, he is lifeless by whose side thou liest.
Wifehood with this thy husband was thy portion, who took thy hand and wooed thee as a lover.' 8

' From his dead hand I take the bow be carried, that it may be our power and might and glory.
There art thou, there; and here with noble heroes may we o’ercome all hosts that fight against us.' 9

(Rig (x.18.8) blesses a woman at her second marriage, with progeny and prosperity in this life time. Go up, O woman, to the world of living; you stand by this one who is deceased; come! to him who grasps your hand, your second spouse (didhisu) ,you have now entered into the relation of wife to husband.

In rig (X.18.9) the new husband while taking the widow as his wife says to her: let us launch a new life of valor and strength begetting male children overcoming all enemies who may assail us.)

(ii) Atharvana Veda (XVIII.3.4) blesses the widow to have a happy life with present husband. O ye inviolable one ! (the widow) tread the path of wise in front of thee and choose this man (another suitor) as thy husband. Joyfully receive him and may the two of you mount the world of happiness.

True but Hinduism changed continuously. (there is a however a mention in the Atharva veda of a form of token Sati -the widow lying down on the pyre for some time before getting up & joining the mourners) Manu in his smriti takes a hardline view of widow remarriage as does the Aditya-purana though others like the Agni-purana take a more lenient view as do the Arthasastra & the Kamasutra. Later though, the views against widow remarriage hardened & Sati which is never mentioned by Manu starts getting the sanction of lawgivers like Brihaspati.

 

[Vibs]

yes it is thousands of years after vedic times but that does not mean it did not exist thousands of years before..

What are you on about? They had arrows and swords in those times. Not lead bullets!!!